Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Howe and Baroness Gale

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 92ZZEA and 92ZZEB. Clause 22 is titled:

“Exception for provision of health services”.

Subsection (1) is crucial, as it sets out the legal test for when NHS continuing care or registered nursing care should be provided and when the means-tested social care system may lawfully provide for nursing care.

Recently, I have been listening to people give evidence to the APPG on Parkinson’s, which I chair and which has been conducting an inquiry into NHS continuing care. Listening to the witnesses, it has become very clear that there are often lots of problems with the health service and social care services arguing over funding. People are having difficulty accessing continuing care under the NHS and have to get over lots of barriers. It is quite heartbreaking to hear the problems that people are having.

The wording of Clause 22 still carries a potential risk for those who self-fund their care. There are various provisions in the clause that allow local authorities to arrange for health services that should be provided by the NHS. Once councils start delivering healthcare, when they traditionally used to deliver means-tested and chargeable social care, there is a risk that someone—somewhere in the system—will mistakenly conclude that the council can charge for those services. There is a need to ensure that self-funders are not exposed if they are found to be eligible for NHS continuing care, or registered nursing care, and the package of delivery is with the local authority. These matters were raised by the Joint Committee scrutinising this Bill but have not yet been addressed.

In legal terms, local authorities are prohibited from providing anything authorised or required to be provided under the NHS Acts. This means that social services cannot provide care home accommodation if a power or a duty to provide the accommodation exists under any of the NHS Acts. Clause 22 has narrowed this down to just “required”, for example by omitting the “power” or authorisation provision. That leaves local authorities able to provide accommodation that the NHS has a power to provide. I believe that disputes and confusion have occurred between councils and the NHS over continuing care, and this seems to be a recipe for more. The Bill should be amended to prohibit local authorities providing a service or facility that is authorised or required to be provided under the NHS Act 2006.

My amendment would mean that local authorities would be prohibited from providing health services that are authorised or required to be provided under NHS Acts. My aim is to make it clear who can deliver what, so as to avoid self-funders being at risk, however small that risk might be, of having to pay for care that they should be getting free.

Clause 22(4)(a) also states that a local authority may, despite the prohibitions, arrange for care home accommodation with nursing care if it has consent to do so from the clinical commissioning group. This may also put self-funders at risk of being charged for services that should be free.

These amendments would introduce an explicit clause that sets out that, where a local authority provides services on behalf of a clinical commissioning group, the authority may not recover the cost from the individual whose needs are being met. I trust I have set out clearly why these amendments are needed and I hope that the Minister will agree with me.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, it is vital that care and support, health and other services are joined up, as this offers the potential to make measurable improvements in individuals’ outcomes and experiences of care and support. Clause 3 places a duty on local authorities to carry out their care and support functions with the aim of integrating services with those provided by the NHS or other health-related services such as housing. Amendment 81C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, raises the issue of co-operation duties on the NHS; I have no issue with that sentiment. Clause 3 is intended to reflect the similar integration duties placed on NHS England by Section 13N, and on clinical commissioning groups by Section 14Z1 of the National Health Service Act 2006, in the context of this Bill.

Clause 6 imposes a general duty to co-operate between the local authority and other relevant authorities that have functions relevant to care and support. Clause 7 supplements this by creating a specific duty to co-operate in individual cases.

Clause 22 sets out the limits on what a local authority may provide by way of healthcare and so, in effect, sets the boundary between the responsibilities of local authorities for the provision of care and support, and those of the health service for the provision of healthcare. Our intention is to replicate the effect of the current prohibitions on what a local authority may provide by way of healthcare, which are imposed under Sections 21 and 29 of the National Assistance Act 1948 and Section 49 of the Health and Social Care Act 2001. This is a matter eloquently raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, in tabling Amendments 92ZZEA and 92ZZEB.

The word “authorised” in Section 21 of the 1948 Act has resulted in much confusion and case law. The intention behind Clause 22 is therefore to simplify the language and to make the boundary clearer without moving it. Make no mistake: where nursing care is being funded by the health service, it will continue to be unlawful for a local authority to recover the cost of this from the individual. It is the relevant clinical commissioning group that would be responsible for this cost.

On Amendment 82A, I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend Lady Barker that no one should be given medical treatment or be medically assessed against their wishes where they have capacity to make such a decision. I hope that my noble friend will be reassured that the existing legal position and clinical practice is clear on that point.

Amendments 87ZZA and 81B were, again, spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. The prominence of health and wellbeing boards will be strengthened through their role in signing off the joint plans that are required as part of the £3.8 billion pooled fund between local authorities and the NHS to support joined-up and integrated working. The need for local commissioners to engage with their health and wellbeing boards is made clear through their composition, which includes the director of adult social services, the director of children’s services, the director of public health and a representative of each relevant clinical commissioning group. The duty to co-operate already applies to these health and wellbeing board members.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Earl Howe and Baroness Gale

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, Amendment 88H seeks to amend Clause 12. The clause provides an excellent framework for assessments to be carried out by local authorities. However, the clause should be tightened to ensure that the framework is fully and properly implemented.

People with Parkinson’s and long-term conditions have problems in accessing NHS continuing healthcare. The APPG on Parkinson’s, which I chair, is holding an inquiry into NHS continuing care. We have been hearing about the difficulties people experience in finding out about NHS continuing care and the further difficulties in getting an assessment. Even when people are assessed, the assessment can be fraught with problems such as assessors not really understanding the condition and even assessments happening without people knowing about them.

Clause 12(1)(g) states that the regulations may,

“specify circumstances in which the local authority must refer the adult concerned for an assessment of eligibility for NHS continuing healthcare”.

The Care and Support Alliance believes we must ensure that local authorities and health services work together and make people aware of NHS continuing care and that people are referred on to continuing care assessments when there is a health need.

The importance of this cannot be understated. Social care is means tested and healthcare is free, so whether someone is funded by the NHS or through means-tested social care systems has significant cost implications for that individual. The Care Bill provides a perfect opportunity for councils to ensure that people who may well be eligible for free NHS continuing care are rightly signposted to, and assessed for, it.

Clause 12 offers guidance about what may be in the regulations relating to assessing social care needs and assessments for carers under Clauses 9 and 10. It states that regulations “may” make provision on the circumstances in which the local authority must refer the adult for continuing care. This does not go far enough and the word “may” should be amended to “must”. If there is not a clear mandate placed within these regulations, the vital issue of signposting for services and systems such as continuing care could be overlooked in the drafting of these important regulations.

The regulations must make provision for the circumstances where local authorities may refer the adult on to NHS continuing healthcare. There is a lack of knowledge about who is eligible and the funding that people are potentially entitled to, so we should have certainty that these regulations will stipulate these circumstances. This should lead to a greater awareness of NHS continuing healthcare and greater access.

These attributes could ensure that all assessments are carried out in a way that supports the individual, take into account their needs and the needs of their families and carers, ensure that the appropriate professionals and experts are involved in the assessments and that people are referred on to NHS continuing healthcare as appropriate. I know that “may” and “must” are very small words, but I hope that the Minister will take note and agree to the amendment.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Care Bill marks a historic step forward in improving the rights of adult carers. Although successive Governments have recognised the contribution carers make and have supported Private Member’s Bills about carers, this is the first time that the Government have included specific provision for carers’ rights to social care in their legislative programme. These provisions have been warmly welcomed.

Amendments 88E and 88F, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, bring to the attention of the Committee the important role that the NHS can play in helping those with caring responsibilities look after their own health, identify themselves as carers and access information and advice.

Clinical commissioning groups already work with local authorities through health and well-being boards to understand and plan for identifying and supporting carers. Many clinical commissioning groups already have, or are developing, joint carer strategies. Importantly, the pooled health and care budget for 2015-16 announced last week as part of the spending round will help health and care and support to work together in supporting carers.

I quite agree that it is, of course, crucial that steps are taken to help individuals with caring responsibilities to identify themselves as carers. The Department of Health has provided over £1.5 million to the Royal College of GPs, nursing and carers’ voluntary organisations over recent years to develop training and resources to help those working in primary and community healthcare to support people with caring responsibilities. We will consider further bids to extend this work programme, including extending support to nurses working on hospital wards and outpatient departments.

I listened with care to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in this context and I would say that carers of people with cancer will benefit from steps which NHS England and the Department of Health are taking, some of which I have already referred to. I would also say that the current initiatives have unleashed an enormous amount of enthusiasm among frontline staff, and both nurse and GP carer champions and voluntary sector carers’ ambassadors have been recruited. They are increasing understanding about supporting carers locally at both strategic and practice levels.

In terms of identifying carers and helping them to access support, it is also critical to align assessments undertaken by other bodies, including NHS continuing healthcare assessments undertaken by clinical commissioning groups. If a carer is identified in the course of an NHS continuing healthcare assessment, the national framework for NHS continuing healthcare and NHS-funded nursing care makes clear that the clinical commissioning group should inform them about their entitlement to have their needs as a carer assessed and, where appropriate, either advise the carer to contact the local authority or, with the carer’s permission, refer them to the local authority for an assessment.

The provisions in the Care Bill provide a lower threshold for a carer’s assessment than exists now. A situation where the person whom the carer supports is being assessed for NHS continuing healthcare is highly likely to be regarded by a local authority as one where it appears the carer may have a need for support. A carer’s assessment would then be triggered. Clause 10(5) already requires a carer’s assessment to include an assessment of whether the carer is able and willing, and is likely to continue to be able, to provide care for the person needing care. Moreover, regulations under Clause 12 may make provisions for joint assessments. We will consider such particular circumstances further as we develop these regulations.

I turn now to Amendments 78F, 79E, 79H and 88C relating to disabled children. I would not wish to underestimate the challenges that families can face in supporting these young people. Policy on supporting children and families of course lies with the Department for Education. The Minister for Children and Families’ view is that there is already sufficient provision under Section 17 of the Children Act 1989 to provide for the assessment and support of children in need, including disabled children, and their parents. The Department for Education’s investment in parent carers’ forums and short breaks provision for disabled children in recent years have helped to shape family support.

In addition, the special educational needs reforms in the Children and Families Bill, which received its Second Reading in this House yesterday, are intended to give parents much more choice and control about the support they and their children receive. My noble friend Lord Nash confirmed yesterday, at Second Reading, that the Department for Education would consider how legislation for young carers might be changed. I simply ask noble Lords to be a little more patient in waiting for those proposals.

Before turning to the effect of Amendments 79F, 79J, 79M, 88H and 88K, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and members of the Opposition Front Bench, I would like to confirm, as I hope my words just now have, that both the Minister for Care and Support and the Minister for Children and Families are clear about the need to protect young carers from excessive and inappropriate caring by using “whole family” approaches.

Young carers should be regarded first and foremost as children and they should be assessed and supported in the context of children’s legislation. The Minister for Children and Families has confirmed that his department will look at what it can do to remove any legal barriers preventing young carers and their families from receiving the support they need under children’s legislation. We will also work to ensure that children’s legislation works with adult legislation to support the whole family in a meaningful way.

These amendments would extend the requirements on a local authority to prevent and reduce the needs of children caring for either an adult or a child. The local authority would also be required, when identifying carers in the area with needs for support, to include young carers aged under 18. One of the key principles when considering young carers is to address first what is needed to support adults in the family with care and support needs, and then see what remaining needs for support a young carer in the family has.

I hope I can reassure noble Lords that, first, through the provisions in Clause 2 to establish prevention as a core duty of local authorities, and secondly, through the provisions in Clause 12 to make regulations about a “whole family” approach to assessment of adults, we are ensuring that adult care and support makes the appropriate contribution to supporting children and young people with caring responsibilities as well.

Of course, provision of preventive services for adults would be of benefit to other family members, including children, by preventing or delaying either an adult’s needs for care and support or an adult carer’s needs for support. As it stands, without this amendment, I believe that the provisions of Clause 2 will help children and young people significantly.

Amendment 88H looks to require the Secretary of State to make regulations in all the areas listed in Clause 12(1). I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that this is our intention, as these are essential in ensuring that the assessment is carried out in an appropriate and proportionate way. In relation to the noble Lord’s Amendment 88K, I confirm that we intend in regulations to make clear that a local authority should have regard to the needs of children in the family, and indeed we would wish to encompass other significant family relationships as well.

As I have set out, robust arrangements are in hand to ensure that carers are identified and supported by the NHS and local authorities, and that both parent carers of disabled children and young carers are adequately and appropriately supported under children’s legislation. The Department of Health and the Department for Education will continue to work closely together to ensure that children’s and adult legislation join up in respect of supporting adults with parenting responsibilities, and in the period of transition from children’s to adult services. I hope that those remarks will be sufficient to enable the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.