Localism Bill

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, it is time that someone stood up and said how much they welcome what the Minister had to say and how much they agree, although it may not help her for me to say so from these Benches. On what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said about Governments of a different complexion, I say to him that in my view my own Government were really rather timid on this matter.

Why does the community right to buy matter? There are thousands of community organisations in this country that need the right to buy. This is not about central government imposing something on the local community; it is about giving a right to buy. I shall take a moment to explain. Healthy, viable communities are in the interests of landowners and everyone else. The community right to buy in the Bill is a significant step towards realising the aspirations of localism, the big society, the good society and community regeneration—aspirations that to a high degree are shared across the political spectrum. It would be a bitter blow for hundreds of communities if these actually quite modest proposals were derailed in this House.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, just for clarity, I point out that the noble Baroness referred to a “community right to buy”, whereas the Bill is actually about the right to bid. Did the noble Baroness mean “right to bid” rather than “right to buy”?

[Baroness Thornton]

Thank you for that clarification.

As the noble Baroness said, it is not about forcing a sale, or forcing landowners to sell to a particular bidder; it is about creating even more use of assets, some of which were previously liabilities. In the past, disused buildings, wasteland, schools, libraries, town halls and offices which were becoming redundant have all been used by local communities. The Bill promotes an extension of that activity. For example, in London the Westway Development Trust took over 40 acres of derelict land under the A40 to create a thriving community. In North Yorkshire local villagers bought a failing pub last year and have thus safeguarded a vital community resource. However, a major impediment to this has been the lack of a window of opportunity, to allow time for community groups to bid for key assets in their neighbourhoods before the assets are sold on the open market. Often key assets of huge community significance have slipped through their fingers as a result.

This is an important and practical step. The Government have sought to build safeguards into the Bill, to protect owners’ interests. It would be a great shame if we were to lose what would be a relatively modest step towards giving communities the right to make use of assets which they very much need.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, I have had a note from the government Front Bench saying, “Do say what you wanted to say”, but I believe that it is far too late at this time of night for me to say what I wanted to say. Like all good bedtime stories, as in The Arabian Nights, I will leave the next episode until we meet again.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, obviously, I support Amendment 136ZD, ably proposed and argued for by my noble friend Lord Gardiner, to which I added my name. I shall not go over that ground again. I also welcome the opening remarks of the Minister. I did not catch all of it, and will read with interest in Hansard tomorrow exactly what she said. She may well have allayed some of the fears that we have heard about relating to this chapter.

Some months ago—it may have been many months ago—I recall the Prime Minister saying that he would bring forward measures for communities to save their village shop, pub and post office. That is an admirable idea, and here we have Chapter 4 before us, but now we have a huge expansion of the assets that communities can save to include all assets from which members of the community derive some benefit. That has put the cat among the pigeons for those landowners and others who allow their communities to enjoy the open spaces of their farms in one way or another. As other noble Lords have said, the unintended consequence of the way that the Bill is written is that landowners will withdraw permission for any activity on their land, a point powerfully put by my noble friend Lord Moynihan. That would be disastrous. If it were to happen, it would go against the grain of the big society, which is what the Bill is meant to be all about.

Amendment 133D goes some way to remedy that, as it focuses on business assets—that is, the village shop the pub and the post office—which, after all, was the original intention of the Prime Minister.

There is another amendment in the names of my noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lord Greaves, Amendment 136ZZB. That would leave out subsection (1) and insert that,

“the local authority will determine whether or not a building or other land is of community value”.

I am afraid that I do not share the view of my noble friend Lord Jenkin. I am slightly nervous of leaving it to a local authority to say what it thinks an asset of community value is. What if the local authority is signed up to the idea that all assets should be to the benefit of communities? That would be very dangerous for landlords and I do not think that I could support that.

In this area, I was having a similar thought about tabling an amendment that would try to take the matter back to business assets rather than all assets. My idea was to provide that “a building or other land may be of community value if it is used on a commercial basis by the local community”. That is very much in the same vein as the first amendment in the group—Amendment 133D—on business assets.

Localism Bill

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord True has ably spoken in those amendments where he is the lead name, and he has also talked to some of mine. I will not go over the ground of his amendments again. I would like to discuss those amendments where my name appears as the lead name.

At Second Reading, I, too, questioned whether 5 per cent was too low a threshold. I believe that 5 per cent is far too low, and would give rise to a plethora of referenda. Five per cent for a referendum for a whole district, or a whole London borough, might seem reasonable. With an electorate of somewhere over 100,000 people, 5,000 or 6,000 signatures might seem like quite a lot to get. But look at electoral areas that are smaller than those. The electorate for a market town might be between 15,000 and 20,000, so between 750 and 1,000 signatures would be required. Far more likely, a petition would come from a single ward, within the town, or London borough, requiring signatures from only about 350 electors.

It will not be difficult to get signatures. “Let’s put it to the vote—sign here—it’s democracy at work, and anyway, it’s not going to cost you anything, because the council will pay”. If you go further down the chain to parishes—they are, after all, a single electoral area—many villages in Norfolk have only a few hundred electors, so that a village of 300 electors would require just 15 signatures to request a referendum. Even more ridiculous would be my parish, which has just over 50 electors, so that just three people could request a referendum.

Amendment 123 raises the percentage to 20 per cent. I see that there are amendments in this group that increase the threshold to 10 per cent and 25 per cent, and I will be interested to hear those noble Lords’ arguments. The Government should consider raising the bar; otherwise, there will be a plethora of referenda, at huge cost to local authorities.

Amendment 124 increases the threshold to 20 per cent, but only to 15 per cent where the number of electors is above 10,000. The idea is that we want the Government to consider different thresholds for different numbers of electorate, so that the larger the electorate the lower the threshold needs to be. At Second Reading I gave the example of the recent referendum in West Norfolk, over a proposed incinerator near King’s Lynn. That cost the council £80,000. I believe that referenda will certainly be called on all the contentious issues, and where the size of the electorate is relatively small, on nearly all the other issues—and why not? Let democracy prevail. This will cost councils an arm and a leg, at a time when they can least afford it.

That brings me on to Amendment 129, which allows the local authority to recover the cost of the referenda from the electorate in which they are held. Note that we use the word “may”, which leaves it optional for local authorities. It would be relatively easy for a local authority to recover costs by putting the cost on each parish or ward precept for the following year.

The last two amendments—Amendments 125 and 126—relate to the idea in the Bill that every councillor can request a referendum. This may be unwise without some brake. If you are a councillor in a minority group, this is manna from heaven. Imagine what fun you could have. After all, although you can be heard at council meetings, no one listens to you, you are always outvoted and the local press never report what you say. What better way to raise your profile, ensure that you are reported in the press and irritate the ruling party than to call a referendum? To prevent any abuses and mischief, the amendments say that a councillor can call a referendum provided that the petition is supported by a small percentage of his or her electorate —we have put in 5 per cent.

I do not expect the Government to accept the amendments, but I would like them to consider the arguments. I would like them also to consider my belief that 90 per cent of referenda will be held on planning issues. I note that, later on, amendments to Clause 47 propose that we exclude planning issues. If the Government, having listened to the arguments, agree that we should exclude planning, then 5 per cent may be the right answer. But if they say that they will not exclude it, we must increase the threshold from 5 per cent.

[Lord Rennard]

My Lords, I should declare an interest as a recent vice-president of the Local Government Association. Perhaps I should also say that I am a member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution. Therefore, I wish to consider this evening some issues of principle about when referendums are appropriate.

On 12 October last year, we debated the Select Committee’s report on the principle of referendums. I said that,

“the Select Committee was right to see significant drawbacks to the widespread use of referendums”.—[Official Report, 12/10/10; col. 428.]

The House expressed many reservations about holding referendums in a representative democracy.

Many noble Lords who spoke in that debate quoted powerful evidence given to the Select Committee about the problems of referendums. They included: people potentially voting on issues different from those on the ballot paper, or voting for or against a Government rather than on a specific issue; problems with getting sufficient turnout for any result to be legitimate; problems with ensuring that both sides of an argument had sufficient resources to make their case; and problems with undue influence being exerted by dominant media groups or party machines.

The case against widespread use of referendums was made very strongly. My noble friend Lord McNally said that he had not found a committee report that had been so much respected by officials and Ministers. He said:

“This is not a report that has been put on the shelf and forgotten”.

My noble friend drew attention to the fact that in his official response to the report, Mr Mark Harper, on behalf of the Government, agreed that,

“referendums should be exceptional events”.—[Official Report, 12/10/10; col. 471.]

These were seen as being required only for major constitutional changes such as to abolish the monarchy, to leave the European Union, or for any of the nations of the UK to secede and so on.

The question must now be asked whether we should have similar concerns about local referendums. Should they become common or should they be rare? On what sort of issues should they be held, and how easily could they be triggered given all these potential problems? There seems at the very least to be a possibility of an allegation of double standards being made if national government are saying that their policy programme should be subject to a referendum only on major constitutional issues, but that all issues decided by locally elected representatives should potentially be subject to referendums, with all the problems that we know about of conducting referendums fairly.

No national Government have ever suggested, for example, that their powers of taxation be subject to a referendum. Many national controversies have been debated in this House, the other place and across the country without the suggestion that national government should resolve the issue by putting it to a referendum.

Since that debate last October we have also had experience of a national referendum. Many of those on the no side in that referendum campaign argued that a reason for voting no was simply the cost of holding the referendum, even though these costs were minimised by holding it at the same time as many other elections. Those who argued this case on the no side must now argue why local referendums should be conducted at the expense of council tax payers in addition to the cost of electing local councillors.

If such local referendums are to be held, then we should be much clearer about when they are appropriate than is outlined so far in this Bill. There must be substantial proven public demand for them locally. They should not simply be a device that either a local council or the Secretary of State can use to avoid the sort of considered judgment that should be taken by elected representatives and be subject to examination at election times.

There may be problems with some council administrations being unrepresentative of the areas that they serve. Some councils are effectively one-party states. The answer is to make those councils more representative—not to make each of their decisions potentially subject to a referendum.

Environment: Drought

Earl Cathcart Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I was not aware of those comments.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, my farm, like others, has received less than three-quarters of an inch of rain since 23 February, and most of it over the last few days. The grass cut for winter feed for cattle has yielded just 40 per cent of what it would normally have done. Will the Government give a one-off permission to cut and bale the six-metre margins to try to make up some of the difference?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I live not very far away from my noble friend and can vouch for the fact that it is still very dry even after the weekend’s rain. I thank him for his suggestion. Grass and forage are a problem for livestock producers. However, on 2 June, Natural England issued advice to farmers who are in environmental schemes and have been hit by the spring drought about how they might manage their agreements. Natural England wants to ensure that the appropriate derogations are available to help farmers deal with the consequences of a prolonged period of dry weather. If any farmer needs further information or advice about the dry weather and their environmental stewardship agreements they should contact Natural England.