Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Debate between Duke of Montrose and Lord Hope of Craighead

Report stage
Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I offer my support for these amendments from a Scottish perspective and for very much the same reasons as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, has just been expressing. I also support it as a member of the Constitution Committee because one of the points which the Constitution Committee made was that if we are to make the union work, the key words are “respect” and “co-operation”, and this is a very good demonstration of respect for the devolved Administrations and the way in which they can co-operate.

I am glad too that the document that the Minister must lay before Parliament is to be published. The Minister is not being required to lay a document before the devolved Administrations—that is not the way it will be done—but because it will be published it will be perfectly plain to the devolved Administrations what the mission will do. The amendment is well phrased. It is extremely desirable for the reasons of principle that I have expressed. I am delighted that these amendments are there.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow the two noble and learned Lords who have just spoken and to see their enthusiasm for the way the Government are going. I was waiting to see whether there was any mention of a legislative consent Motion from the Welsh Government. I think the Scottish Government are still a long way from getting there.

I spoke at a previous stage about my concerns regarding agreement on devolved competences. It looks from these amendments that the Government have been working hard to find all the places where consultation might help. In Committee, my noble friend the Minister said that

“the Government are continuing to work with the devolved Administrations to understand whether there is scope to extend the EOR powers to provide a shared framework of powers across the UK. Once those discussions have concluded, the Government will bring forward any necessary amendments to both Part 6 and Part 3 to reflect the agreed position between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations”.—[Official Report, 22/3/23; col. 1803.]

I was grateful to hear my noble friend the Minister just now reassure us that these amendments are part of that negotiation with the devolved Governments.

The amendments all deal with the actions the Government will be solely bound to carry out. I understand that the Government, and particularly the Treasury, do not want to yield any powers that might end up costing money, but can my noble friend the Minister say whether what we have is anywhere near constituting the framework that they hope to achieve with the devolved Administrations or do they regard the framework as something to be left for further primary or secondary legislation? In my unprofessional view, a framework would be something that laid down the competences and responsibilities of each party and that was acceptable to all. Each Act of Parliament that has granted devolution is, to me, a framework. They are not set in stone. The difference here is that each of these Acts was set up by the UK Government on their own, but now we have to get agreement from the other parties. I realise that these are questions that the Minister may not want to go into at the moment, but they must be asked.

Environment Bill

Debate between Duke of Montrose and Lord Hope of Craighead

Committee stage
Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Devon, and to hear his expertise. I offer my support for Amendment 235, so ably addressed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others. I have sat with the noble Lord for a number of years, recently in our environment and energy committees, and his grasp of environmental issues and experience influenced many of our conclusions, so it is a pleasure to follow up by supporting this amendment.

The Bill would be improved if the objectives on which the conservation strategy should focus were in the second paragraph of this clause. I, like many noble Lords, would like to see the Government bring forward their own list of objectives at the next stage of the Bill, as most of us would not like to see the Secretary of State hand Natural England a completely blank sheet, as if it were the inheritors of the desired Henry VIII powers.

The Bill goes on to list the activities that Natural England will be required to fulfil in setting out its species conservation strategy. These would be clearer and more focused if the objectives were listed. Of course, any list may turn out not to be perfect and again, this spills over into what power there will be to make amendments and who will exercise it. This question is similar to that in a later group of amendments we will deal with, in which we will consider the powers a Secretary of State should have to amend regulations in the light of experience.

The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, is an example of the expertise he holds in this area. The House benefited from hearing from him.

My noble friend Lord Caithness has many amendments in this group, and I support him in his efforts to bring greater clarity to these clauses. His Amendment 252 relates to the clause dealing with wildlife conservation licences. When we were dealing with environmental targets, the Minister introduced an amendment that allows him to make regulations to manage species abundance. As I am sure he is well aware—other noble Lords have spoken of this—he may set the targets but, as is increasingly accepted, much of this can be achieved only by other species management. Making sure that the legislation is fully appropriate is increasingly important. In this area, management becomes a question of having feet on the ground.

Only a few days ago on the “Farming Today” programme, there was a report on an RSPB reserve—in Wiltshire, I think—which made sure that all its habitat was suitable for encouraging many endangered small birds. However, this did not happen until it began to deal with what were termed “generous predators”—I find this a rather descriptive phrase—such as foxes, all kinds of corvids and stoats. My noble friend Lord Caithness’s amendment makes sure that the issue of licences is approached in a practical way. Experience in this field will be what counts, so I will listen with interest to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will add a few words in support of Amendment 235 in the name of my noble friend Lord Krebs and others. Of the various amendments in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, I single out Amendment 242, which seeks to give an express power to Natural England to amend, update or withdraw a species conservation strategy.

The point to which my noble friend Lord Krebs’s amendment is directed is that a species conservation strategy—the “recovery of nature”, as he put it—needs careful planning if it is to achieve its objective. Natural England, which will be responsible for producing these strategies, is well equipped to do this. It already has expertise in dealing with protected species and sites for their conservation and protection, but the strategies will have to be shared with and explained to local planning authorities. Their full co-operation is essential to the success of this strategy.

Trade in Animals and Animal Products (Legislative Functions) and Veterinary Surgeons (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Duke of Montrose and Lord Hope of Craighead

Monday 7th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I do not wish to speak directly to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, but it provides a context for a point that I would like to raise for the consideration of the Minister about the trade in animals and animal products regulations. I do so against the background of what is said in paragraphs 10 and 11 of the Explanatory Memorandum. We are told that the amendments in this measure are “technical in nature” with “no policy changes”, so no public consultation has been undertaken. According to paragraph 11.1:

“As no policy changes are included in the instrument no guidance specifically related to this instrument is required”.


The point I want to raise arises under Regulation 19(3)(d). It deals with an amendment introduced in light of Council Decision 2011/408/EC, which lays down simplified rules and procedures on sanitary controls for certain fishery products. The regulation states that the following new paragraph is to be substituted for paragraph (2) of the legislation:

“Products listed in paragraph 1 that originate from Greenland and enter the United Kingdom are not subject to veterinary checks that would otherwise apply to products originating from countries that are not EEA States, provided that the following conditions are satisfied”.


Noble Lords can see what these conditions are in new paragraph (2)(a), (b) and (c). I am particularly concerned about who is to be satisfied that these conditions are indeed satisfied, because there is no explanation of who will consider whether these various tests are met.

The point arises particularly in relation to new paragraph (2)(c), which refers to,

“consignments of such products dispatched to the United Kingdom from Greenland”.

which should,

“conform with the requirements of EU legislation concerning animal health and food safety relating to the products”.

This is a context in which there are to be no veterinary checks, so in the interests of biosecurity and eliminating biosecurity risks, it is very important to know who, other than a veterinary expert, is going to be satisfied that these consignments conform to the requirements of the EU legislation. I know I am putting a question to the Minister which is very difficult to answer now, but the point really arises in relation to paragraph 11.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum. This is perhaps something about which guidance could be given so that everybody knows who will undertake the responsibility of checking that these consignments conform to the regulations. At first sight, without broader context to put it into perspective, it seems very strange that products from Greenland—much though one respects their quality—should be exempt from these veterinary checks by some other means when there is no clarification about exactly how anybody will be satisfied that these other means are actually being met. Had there been more consultation, somebody else might have raised this point and it would have been more thoroughly investigated. At the moment, it looks as though there is a gap that needs to be addressed. If the Minister cannot do so now, it could be done through guidance at some later stage. It would be very helpful if he would undertake that the matter will be examined and addressed in guidance if it is thought appropriate.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a farmer. As somebody who has lived a long time in the farming industry and who was a spokesman for the sheep industry, I am glad that the two opposition spokespeople raised the question of this great uncertainty and the agricultural industry’s reliance on imports and exports. We want to have everything right.

I think most of us find it very difficult to follow exactly what is likely to go on in the weeks ahead. Focusing on the Benn Act is not the full story, because presumably there could be a settlement before we get to the end, or the EU might offer some changes, and we would like to be sure that our legislation is fully up to date. So the farming industry will be extremely grateful to the Government for taking all precautions. Churning out this legislation in the event that something might happen is becoming a bit of a habit. At the same time, the farming industry would be very unhappy if a loophole were left that might surprise us.

I am very interested that we have up-to-date legislation on spongiform encephalopathies, because we are very much bound by what the EU has said on that. At the same time, the sheep industry is being rather hamstrung, in that it has its own encephalopathy, which has caused the fact that all sheep exported have to be split down the middle and the spinal cord removed. This is putting quite a lot of extra cost on to exports at the moment. The EU is moving towards removing this requirement and we would like to be kept fully up to date on that element. So I support the Government in their efforts on this matter.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Duke of Montrose and Lord Hope of Craighead

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

My Lords, the problem with the term “Sewel convention” itself seems to beg a question as to exactly what it covers. The word “normally” is not the only problem in that respect.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, I should say that if we get to the stage of putting this to a vote, I would like to support the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. In Committee, I drew out the question about the progression from the wording that Lord Sewel set out at that stage of the 1998 Bill and what it had become. It seems to me that the beauty of creating the legislation in statute rather than in a convention is that we know exactly what we have got. It may be that the Government are arguing that we never want to pin things down and that they should be free to do whatever they like at all times, but I think we in this House prefer to have things clearly stated so that people know where they are. Of course, my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth has also made this point —that you cannot have a convention and a statute—so the Government have to make a choice as to which road they will go down. At the moment there seems to be a lack of clarity on many levels, so to have an amendment which has been drafted by the Scottish Parliament and recommended by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, is not a bad beginning.