Murder of Henry Nowak
Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate(1 week, 1 day ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right, and I welcome his support for the Sikh community and for the way in which he has expressed it. As I mentioned in my initial comments, I also very much respect the words of the Nowak family. Everyone should respect these words, and those who have called for action, or for rage, or for other measures as a result, should reflect carefully on what the family have said.
A murder by a knife is 100% a murder for the individual and for their family. The Government are continuing to look at what we can do to halve knife crime. We have put £66 million into the violence reduction unit and £26 million into knife crime concentrations fund. We are providing financial support to tackle county lines, and we are strengthening legislation on the possession of offensive weapons as a whole, as we have done through the Crime and Policing Act. To the right reverend Prelate and the House, I say that recorded knife crime in the past 18 months has fallen by 10%, hospital admissions for stabbings have fallen by 13%, knife-enabled assaults have decreased by 10% and knife homicides are down overall by 27%, their lowest figure in a decade. As I have said, however, knife homicides represent a 100% murder for the family of an individual. These reductions do not take away the pain of yesterday’s verdict, but they show that the Government are trying to address this issue and the trend, thankfully, is a downwards one.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I served the public for 35 years in the police. I have dealt with many chaotic situations involving violence and murder, but I confess that none has been as shocking as that of the murder of Henry Nowak, whose death at the hands of the police was captured on camera. The same words were said or whispered by George Floyd on his arrest by the police in Minneapolis: the words, of course, were “I can’t breathe”.
Policing is not an exact science, but we must heed the words of Henry’s father at the end of the trial. He did not want the death of his son to be continued further in the media. He referred to “division, hatred or tension”, and this plea was ignored by Tommy Robinson on Tuesday night in Southampton. The Prime Minister said that lessons should be learned. Does the Minister agree that the camera film—shown in the media throughout this period—should, with family consent, be on the curriculum of every recruit training course in the country, as an illustration of how such incidents should not be dealt with by the British police? In my opinion, justice should be applied equally in the UK to everybody, regardless of nationality, creed, colour or anything else.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
My noble friend brings great experience from policing to this debate. I say to him that there will obviously be an IOPC investigation that will investigate not just the issues in the footage we have seen but the initial call, how the call was handled, what happened between the call and arrival at the scene, and what happened at the scene and afterwards. I can make comments on what that investigation might show, but it is important that the IOPC and I have the full facts before we make decisions. However, one thing is certain: lessons will be learned and adopted in the guidance that the National Police Chiefs’ Council will issue. Also, any report from that incident will provide some potential areas for future change in policy or operational issues.
National Police Service
Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate(4 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
As a resident in Wales, an MP in Wales for 28 years and a person who still has lots of friends in the police force in Wales, I say to the noble Lord that devolution is not on the agenda as part of this reorganisation. This is about efficiency and local management, and we will discuss with the Welsh Government now, and whoever forms the Welsh Government after the Senedd elections in May, how that reorganisation takes place in Wales. I look forward to working with the First Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, post May, to do that.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister will agree with me that the big takeaway from the White Paper is the addition, as he mentioned, of 13,000 more neighbourhood officers dealing with anti-social behaviour—cycles on pavements and so on. This is what the public are demanding. Does he also agree that it is wrong to compare the new national force with a British FBI—or, even worse, with the federal ICE agents in the United States, who appear to descend on cities like an occupying army? We have little to learn from that arena.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The national police force aims to look at what regional organised crime units do on procurement and how we buy things for police services, on IT, on forensics—which I know is of interest to my noble friend Lord Stansgate—and on how we deal with strategy across the board. It will make a difference to improving crime outcomes.
Police Reform
Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate(6 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I first echo what the noble Lord has said. This is not in any way directed at the performance of individual police and crime commissioners. There are many good people who have given a lot of commitment and time and, in many cases, have made significant changes. However, at the end of the day, we are looking at the governance model. In my view, it needs to move towards the mayoral model. Where we can do that, we will.
The genuine problem is that not every area is seeking to have a mayor at the moment and not all police authorities are coterminous with mayoral authorities. Those are issues that we will have to look at downstream, but the general presumption is to build on the models we have now, in London, Greater Manchester and the Yorkshires, to ensure that we firm up that mayoral accountability.
The police White Paper—which, as I have just confirmed to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, will be published before Christmas—will look at issues such as efficiency, a range of matters to do with the improvement of training, going back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Swire, and how we can improve performance outputs in policing. I will bring that back to the House before Christmas but, at the moment, I cannot stray too much into that area.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, as a superintendent some years ago, I spent some time at the FBI academy in Quantico, studying the criminal justice system in the USA. This is where the idea of police and crime commissioners emanated from. Judges and district attorneys, not to mention county sheriffs, are elected by political parties. This goes right up the ladder, and we see today the FBI director being sacked by President Trump because he did not carry out his wishes. Incidentally, he also appoints the members of the Supreme Court. The Department of Justice is directed to carry out the President’s wishes.
Does the Minister agree that the rule of law is a precious thing to have been born out of Magna Carta, which places legal limits on government power? It evolved the idea of fair trials, habeas corpus and universal legal rights, and political parties should not be involved in political governance, which is evidenced by the low turnout in police and crime commissioner elections. Chief officers should be independent of party politics. I opposed the PCCs as president of the Police Superintendents’ Association and still do. I whole- heartedly welcome these changes.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I can take my noble friend back to 2010-11, when the Labour Party, then in opposition, opposed police and crime commissioners in principle but fought the elections because when there is an elected position, you have to try to fight to fill it. We have looked at the issues of governance and at the issues that my noble friend mentioned. We think it is important that we have independence of policing, but we still believe that there has to be some oversight of that policing, of the budget and of the chief constable to make them accountable. That is why the directly elected mayor will have the responsibility, among many others, to appoint a deputy mayor, potentially, to run policing. In areas that do not have directly elected mayors, we will look to have an indirectly elected policing board comprising senior people from the council, but it is absolutely important that the integrity of that independence is maintained.
Independent Office for Police Conduct
Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
It is the responsibility of police chiefs, police and crime commissioners, and mayors in areas where the mayors are responsible, such as the Mayor of Greater Manchester, the Mayor of London and others, to implement recommendations made by the IOPC. I assure the noble Baroness that, ultimately, the buck stops here.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that one of the principal complaints about the IOPC from the police service itself is the length of time that investigations take? Clearly, this is causing some concern.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. It is absolutely vital—this goes back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—that investigations are done speedily and on time, are publicly accountable, and that their recommendations are implemented. It is no secret to this House that the Government intend to produce a police White Paper in the new year that will cover a range of issues, including the standards mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. The recommendations made about the IOPC, and how the Government will respond to them, will be included in that.
Police: Firearms Officers
Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate(1 year, 7 months ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
It is for the Home Office to make decisions on a range of issues. Rightly, I am not eligible to become the Crown Prosecution Service and determine what information it presents to a jury; nor am I in a position to be the jury in the trial because I have not been party to the information that was presented to it. It is for the CPS to charge and the jury to determine, and then—if a conviction takes place, which in this case it did not—for the judge to pass sentence and for the criminal justice system to manage that sentence in an effective and appropriate way. I hope the noble Lord will accept that his points are interesting but not for me.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, in 35 years as a serving police officer, many as a detective, I developed a very high regard for members of juries. I think we tend to not give them all the information. When I was the president of the Police Superintendents’ Association, we campaigned vehemently to change the law on the right to silence. Your Lordships may be surprised to know that when we interviewed prisoners who continually said “no comment”—noble Lords will probably have seen that happen on television —we were not allowed to give that information to the jury as it was felt that it would be too prejudicial. The law was changed and I think we have had a better justice system since then. Martyn Blake was acquitted—and what a catastrophe it might have been had he been convicted. Can the Minister say whether an appeal on the evidence we have heard today would have been put before the appeal hearing?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
Again, I know the noble Lord has great experience of policing, but he will also know that those policing matters, those charging decisions, that acquittal decision and any appeal decision are not for the Home Office. The issues that we will be examining are around police accountability and the issues that have arisen out of this case, but not this case. It is not for me to be judge, jury, CPS or, indeed, police. If I did all those things, this House would soon call me to order.