Benefit Cap: Child and Family Well-being

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I beg to differ from the noble Baroness. I would call it not “imposing” but “empowering”. Our research shows that the best way to lift children out of poverty is by supporting parents into work. Record numbers of lone parents are now working: 1.2 million, with 1 million fewer people living in absolute poverty compared to 2010, including 300,000 children. We know that 75% of children in poverty leave poverty altogether when their parents move into full employment. We have doubled free childcare to 30 hours a week for nearly 400,000 working parents of three and four year-olds, and a parent need work only one hour a month to be eligible for childcare costs.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has not responded to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, who was referring particularly to mothers of infants. There is no special nursery care for those, and mothers should be with their infants in the early stages.

[Baroness Buscombe]

I respond to the noble Countess by saying that many women, however young their children are, want to work. We are encouraging jobcentre staff to help people to find work that fits around their caring responsibilities. We are also giving those people extra discretionary housing payments. I add that those who are not working at all are still in receipt of what amounts to a gross salary outside London of £23,000 a year and in London £29,000 a year.

Social Security: Claimants

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The staff of the DWP, who I think are effectively being attacked in that Question and by its implications, have really transformed the way that they approach this. With the work coach transformation they are tailoring requirements to the needs of individuals, following a thorough discussion with them on what their needs are in order to get them to play an economic part in this country.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, despite my years of trying to persuade the Department of Work and Pensions to recognise the severity of CFS/ME, is the Minister aware of how utterly demoralised people who have to undergo assessments feel if they are not believed? Even when the derogatory assessment has been overturned by a tribunal, it takes them months and months to regain their self-esteem. Can the Minister please get this matter in hand once and for all?

[Lord Freud]

I thank the noble Countess for that question. We have been working on this issue with her and her group for some years now, and I am under the impression that we have made a lot of progress on ensuring that the illness is thoroughly recognised.

Work Capability Assessments

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

It is a delight to hear from the noble Lord. We do not have a managed economy of the kind that he may be suggesting. We had talks with Nissan with a very good outcome: Nissan took the decision to go on investing. Clearly, a lot of discussion is going on with the steel industry in this country, given that until recently, steel in the western world was under severe pressure.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the scheme is to be a success, work capability assessments must accurately reflect people’s ability to work? In many cases of people I deal with who have fluctuating conditions, assessments do not reflect the ability to work. What are the Minister and the Government doing to improve the situation?

[Lord Freud]

We inherited the work capability assessment, and we have now put it through five independent reviews and developed it considerably. The point at issue in the Green Paper is whether we should combine the assessment of financial need with that of the support that the person needs. That is the main focus of the Green Paper.

Universal Credit

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The marginal rate—the rate at which one withdraws benefit—is 65%. In practice, among the incentive effects are that all the constraints about taking temporary jobs or trying part-time jobs have disappeared, as have some of the constraints against people who may be disabled with fluctuating conditions. They would not normally dare take on a job because if their condition came back, they would have to restart the process of getting on benefits. Because universal credit is both an out-of-work and in-work benefit, it means that there is no risk element to being in work.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will no doubt have seen and heard increasing criticism of tax credits as a way of supporting profit-making companies which should be paying proper wages to their staff but are bad employers. What are Her Majesty’s Government doing to reduce the number of people claiming tax credits and incentivise employers to pay proper wages to their staff, so that they do not need to claim tax credits?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is a bad day to answer that question. The real point is that as we move from the combination of the benefit and tax credit systems into one universal credit system, the incentives will be restructured to encourage people to work their way down the taper.

Personal Independence Payments

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Tuesday 10th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The two processes, for PIP and for DLA—or rather, for the WCA, which I imagine is what the noble Baroness meant—are separate, and separate contractors operate them. Indeed, Maximus has come in to run the WCA process. As for the figures, statistics will be released next week, on 18 March, giving the PIP clearance times and the waiting outstanding times. That statistical release has been preannounced, in accordance with the normal protocols.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I express my thanks to the Minister for the excellent revision that was made of the training manual for CFS/ME. What checks are made of the assessors to ensure that they are not bringing their preconceived ideas about CFS/ME to the assessment that they make of people with that condition?

[Lord Freud]

This is an area into which we have looked very closely, helped by the noble Countess. We have an audit system for all of these tests whereby we test that they are being conducted to the quality that we require.

Work Capability Assessment

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

The important thing about doing these assessments is that someone assesses correctly in terms of capability of performing functions and capability of working; that is, what people are able to do. As I said earlier, we have more specialist professional support going into the system to make sure that those assessments are done accurately.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, is there any foundation to the report in the Independent last week that some 6,000 people with diseases such as Parkinson’s, multiple sclerosis and severe CFS/ME have been put into the work-related activity group? If that is the case, how many of those people have been got into work? What is the point of putting them in the WRAG if they are not going to get better?

[Lord Freud]

Clearly, I am not able to respond on specific people going into specific places. The whole point of the assessments is to focus on functional capability or needs at the point of assessment.

Employment: New Jobs

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we have a widely spread recovery, which is touching all the regions, as I said. To pick up a point that I may not have dealt with adequately, these are full-time jobs. More full-time jobs have been created over the past year than total jobs; in other words, we are reducing very slightly the number of part-time jobs, if that is the full-time equivalent. This is a widely spread recovery of jobs—long-term jobs, female jobs, regional jobs, young jobs. This is good news.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to comment on the report in today’s press that British apprenticeships are being advertised in Romania?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I cannot control where people advertise anything.

Housing: Underoccupancy Charge

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, there is a misunderstanding here about the nature of the provision of a lot of social housing. Some 61% of people in social housing are single: they are not the families envisaged. Those are the people, by and large, who are affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy. We are looking at that very closely indeed.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister say what protection there is for the frail elderly, perhaps living on their own, or the sick or disabled, who do not know their way around the system and do not understand that they can appeal against any decisions that are made?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I emphasise absolutely that this policy deliberately excludes those who are retired—pensioners. The reason for that is that it is very tough to ask older people to make the kind of changes that are possible for younger people to make, so it is in that sense a flow measure. We are trying to get people to move down to appropriately sized homes—if they cannot afford to stay in their larger homes—when they are capable of doing so.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, I thought it was best to defer my thanks until after the Minister had completed his remarks on this group of amendments. I express my warm appreciation for the considerable work that he has done on the Bill, resulting in his welcome announcement this afternoon that the payments will increase from 70% to 75% for civil compensation claims. Although that falls well short of what some of us had hoped for originally, I have to say it compares with the estimated £1 billion of cost that would have been paid by the insurance industry if the employers had not gone out of business and the employers’ liability insurance policies had not been lost or, in some cases, possibly deliberately destroyed. That £1 billion is estimated by the Asbestos Victims Support Groups Forum UK as the amount that has been forgone over the years by victims, who have not been able to formulate claims for the suffering that they endured. At this stage, however, we have to be grateful and I echo the thanks expressed by others to the Minister for achieving this improvement in his discussions that he had with the insurance industry.

I should also like to take the opportunity to ask the Minister about a discrepancy in the DWP’s July 2013 analysis, which has been circulated to noble Lords. Column 6 of table 5 relates to the total amount of the levy from the start of 2010 to 1 July this year. On the assumption that that is based on 100% of average civil compensation, the figure would have been £118.9 million. The amount that individuals would have received directly from the scheme over this period, according to column 5, is £98.5 million. Adding the £20,480 estimated cost per claimant—

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but we are debating Amendment 1, which the noble Lord, Lord Freud, has moved. Would the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, care to address that?

[Lord Avebury]

I thought that this was the appropriate opportunity to raise a point about the document that has been circulated and, if nobody objects, I shall continue with my remarks, which I can assure the noble Countess will be very short. This is the only opportunity that I will have to ask this question about the discrepancy in the figures that have been circulated by DWP. As I was saying, adding the £20,480 estimated cost—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Countess of Mar]

I am sorry, but the noble Lord is not speaking appropriately to the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, has moved. Would he address that, or would he prefer to sit down and ask his questions when we have later amendments on the subject?

[Lord Avebury]

If the Minister is prepared to listen to my question, we shall come to an end in a few minutes.

[The Countess of Mar]

This is Report stage and we should be addressing the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Freud.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Perhaps I may clarify matters. The noble Countess is quite correct. This is Report and we should be addressing the amendment. I would ask my noble friend to make his point when we reach the relevant amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord for the amendments, which we support. Putting the scheme on a statutory basis responds to the debate that we had in Committee and to the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee. I thank him for that.

Perhaps I may be allowed the opportunity to pick up a few points from the noble Lord’s opening statement—again, the thrust of which we are very happy with and supportive of, particularly the open competition for the scheme administrator. That is a very positive move. In addition, the improvement to the record-keeping, the progress of ELTO and the engagement of the FCA are to be welcomed. We knew the Minister’s view on the oversight committee and hoped that it would be possible for him to table amendments for today. However, as that has not proved possible, we hope that there will be a commitment to do so when the Bill goes to the House of Commons.

We support the 75% as an improvement on the opening position. I hope that the noble Lord will not misinterpret subsequent amendments that we have tabled as being ungrateful for the efforts that he has made but I think that we have an obligation to pursue the matter further. The noble Lord put an important issue on the record concerning the scheme, its uprating and the review. The CPI uprating is to be welcomed, as is the review based on the practice and outcomes of the smoothing period. The key issue here, certainly after the initial—

[The Countess of Mar]

Again, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord but I wonder whether he will address Amendment 1 moved by the noble Lord, Lord Freud.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I have addressed it and was simply taking the opportunity to pick up a few points from the Minister’s opening statement, with which I think he was trying to be helpful in setting the scene for this. I was also trying to be helpful by saying what our position is on that. It seems to me that that is my responsibility at this Dispatch Box on behalf of the Opposition. We have tabled an amendment, so we can pick that up in due course. The key thing for us is whether the levy rate will be reduced at the end of that four-year period or whether it can be maintained at its opening level. Obviously that will have beneficial implications for the rate of payments in due course, but perhaps we will come to that on some of our later amendments. However, I support the amendment moved by the Government.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, perhaps I may quickly touch on some of those issues. The point raised by my noble friend Lord Avebury will be dealt with in the third group of amendments, but, as he shrewdly spotted, the figure of 75% comes out at £75 million of costs.

[The Countess of Mar]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but would he please address his amendments and not the bits between?

[Lord Freud]

I have very little to say because very few points have been raised about the amendments, but I do want to make one point. I was asked whether the review needed primary legislation and I said that it did not. I confirm that it can be done in regulations, as I was fairly sure it could.

I would not call any Member of this House ungrateful. I have genuinely always gained an awful lot from noble Lords when we go through these really complicated matters, whether in relation to the Welfare Reform Bill or the Mesothelioma Bill. In this case, in Committee I gained an awful lot from what people were telling me and I did my very best to act on that. That said, and with the intention of satisfying the noble Countess, Lady Mar, I hope that noble Lords will agree the amendment.

Universal Credit Regulations 2013

Countess of Mar Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I propose to confine myself to Part 5 of these regulations on the capability for work or work-related activity. The Minister will recall many occasions when he has assured me that people with ME/CFS are judged on what they can and cannot do in their condition. Memo DMG 1/13, entitled, ESA: LCW and LCWRA Changes, has been brought to my notice very recently. Part 16 of these changes, which I will read out completely so that we understand them, states:

“DMG 42114 advises that a claimant’s LCW must be due to a specific bodily disease, mental illness or disablement. This means that a claimant could satisfy the mental, cognitive and intellectual function descriptors if they had a physical health condition, without having a mental health condition. The law is amended to make it clear that physical descriptors can only be satisfied by a person with a physical health condition, and mental descriptors can only be satisfied by a person with a mental health condition”.

The document then indicates the difference between limited capability for work and limited capability for work-related activity. Both the sections are the same, so I will just read out one:

“when assessing the extent of the claimant’s LCWRA, it is a condition that the claimant’s inability to perform¹

1. physical descriptors² arises”—

I assume the figures refer to the notes—

“1. 1.1 from a specific bodily (i.e. physical) disease or disablement or

2. 1.2 as a direct result of treatment by a registered medical practitioner for such a condition and

2. mental descriptors³ arises

1. 2.1 from a specific mental illness or disablement or

2. 2.2 as a direct result of treatment by a registered medical practitioner”.

In view of the fact that these regulations are running parallel with the ESA regulations—Part 4 and Part 5 —will the Minister please explain why this change has occurred? These people obviously have to have a mental or a physical condition, on a medical certificate presumably, before they can be judged to have one or other of the conditions that I have mentioned. We have a particular difficulty with ME/CFS, as the Minister knows, because many of these people will not have seen a doctor for years and cannot get a medical certificate. I would be grateful if the Minister could clear that up for me.

Also on these paragraphs, Citizen Advice states in its briefing that Regulations 39 and 40 in Part 5 of the Universal Credit Regulations 2013, to which I have referred, set out,

“who is entitled to the Limited Capability for Work element and the Limited Capability for Work Related Activity elements. Regulations 89 to 91 set out who apart from those with LCW or LCWRA will have full work related requirements. Under Universal Credit, claimants with a disability and/or a health condition can be required to undertake ‘all work-related requirements’ before the outcome of their claim for the equivalent of income-related Employment Allowance … has been decided, and whilst they are appealing that decision. ESA regulations (2013) Regulation 26 maintain current protection for those applying for contribution-based ESA … This means that claimants with an equivalent disability and/or health condition applying for ESA … (or the equivalent in UC) will face different work-related conditions through the assessment phase and any appeal, to those applying for ESA”.

Will the Minister kindly clear that one up as well, please?

[Lord Eden of Winton]

My Lords, perhaps I may make a brief comment, but first I must apologise to noble Lords. It is quite clear from all those who have spoken that there is a great deal of expertise and deep knowledge of the subject and, as will become immediately clear, I cannot live up to those standards. However, there is one matter on which I wish to make a brief point. Before doing so, I congratulate my noble friend the Minister on the clarity with which he introduced this subject and on the immense work that has clearly been done on it.

I have one worry, which is that these are enormous and complex changes that will impact on and affect many people who by definition are extremely vulnerable. While I very much support the aim and objective of what the Minister is proposing, and I hope that the pathfinder work is a success, I worry about the implementation of such complex proposals in practice. I share quite a lot of the sentiments expressed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Hollis, and others.

It is therefore most important—perhaps this can be enshrined in guidelines—that those who will be advising the potential beneficiaries of the change are fully and adequately trained and fully understand what they will be talking about. More importantly, when it comes to actually carrying out the whole process of changeover, those who are at the decision-making end should exercise supreme patience and understanding. For me, patience is all important.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, said, many people will not have online access. I know, being of advanced years myself, how difficult it is to understand everything that is going on. I am reasonably but not fully conversant with all the complexities of new technology and new systems of communicating. I can often sense the impatience at the other end of the line in people younger than me, for whom it is second nature to handle these things. It is not so for everyone and it is most important that those who are in a commanding position assist potential beneficiaries to understand the process of changeover, and do so with extreme patience.