Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 30th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It is very simple: we are a democracy; we vote; the result stands. If we have a general election and we are not successful—we Conservatives have experienced a few of them over the years—we sit on the Opposition Benches and do our best to oppose for the country; we do not sit there demanding another general election a month later. That is the way democracy works. The people have spoken; the Government will act.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

May I tell the Leader of the House that the contribution of my somewhat younger parliamentary colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), is an illustration of how the “Dad’s Army” here is always willing to give whatever assistance is necessary when firm leadership is lacking on both sides, as it is at present? On a more serious note that arises from various exchanges about the referendum result since Monday, would it not be useful for us to have an early debate on the alienation and resentment that are felt in so many parts of the country—certainly in the black country boroughs—which led, to a large extent, to the slight majority for leaving the EU? In the past few months and perhaps longer, the House of Commons has not understood sufficiently that feeling of resentment and alienation.

[Mr Winnick]

Indeed. One more step towards the century.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman is perhaps being a bit too pessimistic about his prospects. It does look as if there might be a Labour leadership contest shortly. Judging by the commitment coming from the octogenarians on the Labour Benches, one of them should perhaps put their hat into the ring.

On the impact of all the changes in recent years on the economy and on communities up and down the country, one of the Government’s achievements that I am proudest of is the huge fall—more than half a million—in the number of children growing up in workless households. That will transform the lives of those children, with their parents getting up in the morning and going to work with a sense of purpose and direction. I am really proud that my party has contributed to achieving that in government.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 9th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

This is a subject of increasing importance. The rise in suicides among young men in particular is deeply alarming. The Secretary of State for Health takes this issue very seriously indeed and he is working on upgrading the national suicide prevention strategy. As a Government, we will do everything we can, and we are already putting additional resources into mental health treatments in the health service to try to tackle this and other problems. We are working immensely hard to tackle this.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

In regard to parliamentary representation for women, it is worth remembering that in 1912 a future Labour Cabinet member, George Lansbury, resigned his London east end seat in protest against women being denied the right to vote and to be represented in the House of Commons. He subsequently fought a by-election, which unfortunately he did not win, although he came back to the House in due course. Does the Leader of the House agree that it would be useful to have a debate shortly on what is happening to women abroad? Yesterday, a 17-year-old woman in Pakistan was burnt to death by her family because they disagreed with her marriage, and it is said that 1,000 women a year in Pakistan are murdered in the same way. Despite all the progress we have made in this country, the suffering that goes on and the murder of women should be remembered, fought over and debated, and we should try in every way possible to end it.

[Chris Grayling]

It is a great pleasure to find something on which the hon. Gentleman and I entirely agree. The treatment of women in some societies around the world is absolutely atrocious, and we as a leading nation in the world should always seek to improve that situation. We should use what influence we have around the world to change other regimes in other countries and to create a world that is more enlightened and more supportive towards women and that treats them in the way they should be treated.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 19th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes his point with his customary effectiveness. I have no doubt that the BBC will be listening carefully to his comments and, if nothing else, the view he has put forward will ensure that it goes even further out of its way to try to make sure that it is impartial in the referendum campaign.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Can the Leader of the House explain the difference—perhaps we could have a statement—between the 1975 referendum, during which Ministers disagreed without bitterness, important arguments were made and personal attacks were not made, and the present campaign, in which Cabinet and other members of the Government and their supporters have such bitterness, strife and rancour between them over the question of remain or leave? It is not very civilised and totally unlike 1975.

[Chris Grayling]

Ironically, I wrote a short piece for City A.M. this morning about social reform, alongside my deputy from a different side of the argument. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are still best friends, unlike most people in the Labour party, who appear to be preparing to knife their leader in the back.

Strathclyde Review

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 17th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I do not imagine that we have heard the last of this debate, but when it comes to enacting our manifesto and the measures in the spending review, our legislative priority is to do things that will make a real difference to the country. That is what the country expected of us when it elected us in May.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Is the Leader of the House aware that people will recognise this as one big sulk, because of the decision taken by the House of Lords on tax credits? The Lords were right, and they were sustained in their decision by Members on the Opposition Benches, by public opinion and even by Members on the Government side. That is why this nonsense has come before us today.

[Chris Grayling]

The reason this matter has come before us today is that, by general acknowledgement, the conventions that have existed for a long time between the House of Lords and the House of Commons have somewhat broken down. It is time to sort that out and to put in place arrangements that give certainty and continuity for the future.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

No area can afford to do without GP services for any length of time, particularly in winter. My hon. Friend has made an important point that I suspect will be noticed by those in the health service—they tend to be when they are raised in the House—but the Secretary of State for Health will be here on the first day after the Christmas recess, so I suggest that my hon. Friend raises the matter then if things have not moved forward.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

If there was to be a debate on that deeply bigoted man Trump, would it not be useful to make two points: first, in this country we have legislation against inciting racial hatred, which is a very effective law that I certainly hope will remain; and secondly, and most importantly in many respects, we have effective gun control, which I do not think would do any harm in the United States?

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Tuesday 1st December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The motion was tabled a few minutes ago; it is available in the Table Office now.

What I would say to my hon. Friend is that we are providing time to go beyond 7 o’clock tomorrow, to 10 o’clock. We have sought to provide what is the equivalent of two days of debate. A 10-and-a-half-hour debate tomorrow is effectively equivalent to the time we would have if we held the debate over a two-day period, so I hope he will sense that we have given an adequate amount of time for this debate.

My hon. Friend has concerns, but he should realise that this is a matter of concern to every single Member of the House, and that a decision such as this is never taken lightly by any Member of Parliament. If he has concerns and wants further information, he can talk to me and colleagues in the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence afterwards—we would be happy to discuss the issue further.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

There must be few, if any, Members who will not be agonising over how to vote, so it would be useful if everyone had a free vote. Does the Leader of the House recognise that unlike his Cabinet colleagues, he has a special responsibility to Members of this House? On such a crucial issue and however we vote on it, I imagine it must be difficult for people outside to understand why we are confining debate to one day, albeit with extended time. Why is it impossible for the House of Commons to provide at least two full days of debate? We could end up with a situation in which Members are desperate to speak, and a good number might not be able to express a view on behalf of themselves and their constituents. Those who are called in the final stages might be limited to three minutes. It is simply wrong to undertake debate in this way on such a crucial issue of war and peace.

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely accept—the hon. Gentleman is right to say it—that this is a crucial issue of conscience for many Members. However, the timing of tomorrow’s debate is effectively the equivalent of the amount of time that would have been available if we had held a debate across Wednesday and Thursday on normal business days for this House. It provides one extended debate on a single day, which I think makes for a more coherent debate over that extended period. It will start earlier than normal and finish much later than normal. I hope that will give Members of all parties the opportunity to contribute.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 10th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am sure that my hon. Friends in the Ministry of Justice will have noted my hon. Friend’s comments. I refer him to what the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee said a moment ago about seeking subjects for debate in the coming days. If my hon. Friend feels strongly about these matters, there is an opportunity to bring them to the House’s attention through that route.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Following previous comments, would it not be appropriate to have a statement, preferably as soon as possible, on how the Government can possibly justify trying to reduce the number of Members of the elected House of Commons by at least 50 while increasing the number of Members of the House of Lords, which is totally unelected, to 825? Is that the Tory conception of modern democracy? Talk about back to the future!

[Chris Grayling]

I simply remind the hon. Gentleman that the coalition Government brought forward plans for House of Lords reform in the previous Parliament, but they could not proceed because the Labour party obstructed the programme motion. If he wants to know why the House of Lords was not reformed, he should look to his own party.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is a bit of a contradiction in terms—if someone is a Traveller, why are they establishing a fixed site to live on? My view is that every citizen of this country should be subject to the same laws as everyone else. We should not make exceptions for any groups, and it is an oddity that should be dealt with—people who claim to be Travellers should not be given special permission to establish fixed sites to live on permanently.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Millions of people will lose out as a result of the Budget, but, regarding other business next week, is the Leader of the House aware that despite all his denials, there will be a dishonest attempt to legalise foxhunting? A 90-minute debate is totally unacceptable and will be viewed with contempt by millions of people in the country who detest the very idea of foxhunting being brought back?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman will have the chance in that debate to make his point. I simply reiterate what I said earlier: this measure does not overturn the ban on hunting with dogs.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Thursday 18th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Having had to divert off the M6 a couple of times recently myself because of the roadworks, I share my hon. Friend’s concern about the impact on the surrounding communities. That is not always avoidable, given the need for improvements. As the improvements take root and the road is reopened, there will probably be a positive impact on the communities that he represents. I will ensure that his comments are drawn to the attention of the Department for Transport, and he should use all the channels available to him to ensure that Ministers are aware of the need to speed things up as much as is humanly possible.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

While we are waiting for the briefing on the parliamentary building, is it not clear that previous reports have shown the crumbling state of the building and how costly it would be if the essential work to be undertaken were done with Members, staff and everyone else in place? I heard what the Leader of the House said about the Committee and the rest of it, but is it not important that a decision is reached, so that the necessary work can begin in 2020? The longer we delay it, the more costly it will be.

[Chris Grayling]

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman. We need to get on with this, because there is no benefit in inappropriate delays. Of course, there is other work to be done on the parliamentary estate before that work can happen, but I am clear that we need to move ahead with it expeditiously.

Prison Communications

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I am only aware of a handful of cases over the years. When such cases arise, they are dealt with individually, with an apology and an explanation given to the prisoner involved. In terms of numbers, I am not aware that that is comparable to the issue we are dealing with today. It is however a concern, because such cases do arise.

The truth is that we all make mistakes. I do not yet have a detailed answer on the case of the Member of Parliament, but I suspect that it was a simple mistake by a member of staff who did not realise that they should not do what they did. However, we need to understand why and how this happened in both those circumstances, and we need to make sure that appropriate guidelines or measures are in place to ensure that they do not happen again.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The statement is headed, “Prison Communications”. Is the Secretary of State aware that there is a good deal of concern—in my view, justified concern—that the intelligence services are intercepting communications between lawyers and their clients. We know that there is an acute threat of terrorism and we have no illusions about that, but does he accept that such communications between lawyers and their clients should remain confidential and that what has happened should not occur again?

[Chris Grayling]

Rule 39 mail is very clearly covered by privilege, and it should remain so. As I have indicated, we have a remit to look at rule 39 mail only if we have good reason to believe that it is being misused. That matter is at the discretion of prison governors, but a concerted series of measures to intercept communications relating to an individual would almost certainly be subject to a ministerial warrant. As the hon. Gentleman knows, Security Service activity is subject to ministerial warrants, and rightly so.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The principle of the welfare state that I described—that it is there to provide a safety net for those who have no other form of income—has operated for a very long time, including under the previous Government. The welfare state provides a degree of support to those who have another form of income, but it is a long-standing principle of the jobseeker’s allowance system that such support is not unlimited. We are simply applying that same principle to ESA for people who are deemed to have the potential, in due course, to return to work.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that many of us are grateful for what the House of Lords has done? It has acted as the conscience of Parliament. It is extremely unfortunate that the Government are today determined to reverse its decision. What is so obnoxious about the Government’s measures is that the most vulnerable are being hit, meaning not only cancer patients, but others with life-threatening diseases. It seems that the Government are totally indifferent to the group of people who will be harmed as a result of their proposals.

[Chris Grayling]

I do not doubt the hon. Gentleman’s views, but he is a member of a party whose leader and shadow Secretary of State made speeches a fortnight ago on the need to take tough decisions on welfare. I am afraid that what the hon. Gentleman says is another example of the disconnect that exists within the Opposition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

The issue comes back to the core principle of why we are imposing the time limit. We are not taking benefits away from people who do not have other financial means. The people who will be affected by the 12-month time limit—not just cancer patients, but generally—are those who either have another household income or who have many thousands of pounds of savings in the bank. They are the ones affected. We are not taking contributory support away from those people in the support group. Most cancer patients, as I have just described, will be in that support group. We are not taking benefits away from them, just from those with other financial means.

[Mr Winnick]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Grayling]

No, I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman.

If amendment 18 were accepted, it is estimated that it would cost around £90 million cumulatively by 2016-17 based on a two-year time limit, or around £140 million cumulatively based on a one-year time limit. That would be a significant additional cost for the taxpayer, and would fly in the face of a principle that we have tried to bring to this whole process, which is that we do not bracket any condition into one absolute position. We look at each individual case to understand the impact of the condition on the ability to work.

The third area of focus this afternoon is our proposed changes to the condition relating to entitlement to ESA on grounds of limited capability during youth. These changes are part of our principled approach to reform. We want to modernise and simplify the current welfare system, focus support, avoid duplication of provision and redefine the contract between the state and individuals, in advance of the introduction of universal credit. It cannot be right that, for example, where a claimant has qualified for contributory ESA under the youth provisions and some years later they receive a substantial inheritance, they should be able to continue to receive unlimited contributory ESA without the need to have paid any contributions and without any condition from the state.

These proposals will not affect those in receipt of income-related ESA. We expect that around 90% of those who presently receive ESA on youth grounds will be eligible for income-related ESA. It will be a simple transition from their point of view. Only some 10% will not qualify because they have other means available to them—and I emphasise that that means a partner in full-time work or capital of more than £16,000. We are merely targeting the support the Government can provide to where it is needed most. I do not think it is right that someone with independent income or capital should be able to access state support on a long-term, ongoing and unconditional basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

If I understand correctly, the hon. Gentleman has just described the very sad case of someone who will not be able to work again and would therefore certainly be placed in the support group and would not be affected by the measures. I am not sure that I understand the point being made.

[Mr Winnick]

He may well work again, but not at this moment. He writes that when the Welfare Reform Bill becomes law in April he, and others, such as cancer sufferers, people with psychiatric problems and those with other life-threatening illnesses will have their benefits “stripped” from them once 12 months is up. If his partner earns the sum I have mentioned of as little as £149 a week and if they have modest savings, he will receive nothing at all once he is means-tested. If that case is an illustration of the Government’s intentions, there is all the more reason for a reluctance to support the measures and a recognition of what the House of Lords has tried to do.

As I listened to the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) and to the Liberal Democrat Minister of State, who intervened on my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), I asked myself whether, if they were in opposition, they would have the slightest hesitation in upholding the decision of the Lords by majority vote. The answer is pretty obvious. To their credit, a number of Liberal Democrats in the Lords decided to vote against the Government, and Liberal Democrat MPs would, in opposition, have voted in the same Lobby as us at half-past 2. It is unfortunate that they are willing to sacrifice their principles so flagrantly as a result of being in the coalition.

Let me end on a quote:

“People who are sick, who are vulnerable…I want you to know we will always look after you. That’s the sign of a civilized society and it’s what I believe.”

That was the Prime Minister at his party conference. What he is now doing with his colleagues and with the support of the Liberal Democrats is hitting out at the most vulnerable people in our society—cancer patients and the rest, including the man I mentioned. Those are the people who will be penalised financially and harmed in so many ways as a result of what the Government are doing. That is a direct contradiction of what the Prime Minister said about protecting the most vulnerable in our society.

Youth Unemployment (Walsall)

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)]

We meet again, Mr Speaker, although not quite as late as the last occasion on which we debated youth unemployment in the Chamber.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) on securing the debate, and also on the measured way in which he addressed what I regard as a very serious issue. We have had quite a few debates about it, and I must say that his approach was commendable in comparison with that of some Members to whom I have listened.

I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about the issue, and about the future of young people in his constituency. Let me tell him about the measures that we are taking to address the problem. It is a long-standing problem, not simply a problem of the recession years. During the past decade, from 2003-04 until the present day, there has been a steady increase in youth unemployment in this country—even during what have been relatively prosperous times economically—although the national figures for the last two months show a significant drop, which is of course welcome.

The hon. Gentleman was right to focus on the number of young people in his constituency who receive jobseeker’s allowance. All too often people focus on the number of unemployed people according to the International Labour Organisation measure, which includes a substantial number of full-time students and somewhat distorts the true picture. As the hon. Gentleman will know, in his constituency there has been a small increase—small in comparison with the previous position—in the number of unemployed young people receiving JSA over the last 12 months, but there was a much bigger and fairly steady increase over the previous decade.

There is indeed a problem that we must address, and to which we must deliver solutions. One of those solutions involves stimulating economic growth in what are still challenging times economically. We are particularly concerned about regions where there have been significant economic changes, where there is a smaller private sector than we might wish and higher public sector employment than in other areas, and where there is a particular labour market challenge. The regional growth fund—we announced the first tranche of RGF projects recently, and will announce further projects in due course—is designed to stimulate and support manufacturing, research and related areas of business in parts of the country where we need to build up and strengthen the manufacturing base, the research base and the skills base.

I would argue—I suspect this might be a point of difference between the hon. Gentleman and me—that the measures we are taking to address the deficit, challenging though they may be, are a necessary part of creating a stable economic environment where businesses will grow and invest and create jobs. Over the past 12 months there has been good growth in private sector employment in the UK. About 500,000 new private sector jobs, the majority of them full-time, have been created over that period, but it remains a concern that, despite that, there has been very little change in the numbers on jobseeker’s allowance. That is certainly the experience for young people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency.

Job opportunities have been created, therefore, but we are not seeing people move into those jobs, so what do we do about that? There are three particular steps that we are taking. The hon. Gentleman asked when some of the measures we have proposed will be put into action, and my answer is that they are in place now. They are relatively new—they are in the early stages—but they are there, and we are working hard now to address some of the concerns that the hon. Gentleman raised.

Let me now describe those three key parts—they are not the only parts—of our strategy. The first issue is how we might provide support for the shorter-term unemployed young people, to get them into the workplace. The vast majority of young people who sign on to JSA are in work within a few months. Of those who have been out of work for nine months, only a small proportion of those who signed on on day one are still out of work. For that first group who get into work in the shorter term, we want to accelerate the process and make sure they move into work without spending those first few months on JSA looking for work.

Crucially, that is where our work experience scheme comes into play. It has its origins in an e-mail I received from the mother of a teenage girl shortly after I was appointed to my post last year. She said her daughter had just sorted out a month’s work experience for herself, and that it was clearly the right thing for her to do, but that she had been told by the jobcentre that if she did that work she would lose her benefits. That is clearly a mad situation, and we swiftly moved to address it. What we have done is turn that on its head, by saying that it is a good thing for young people to do work experience, as it gives them a first taste of the workplace and a period of time to prove to a potential employer that they have skills that that employer might wish to retain, and so we are now allowing young people to do up to eight weeks of work experience while continuing to claim JSA.

Furthermore, our Jobcentre Plus employer relations teams around the country are actively looking for work experience opportunities for young people. At the last count, we had about 35,000 committed placements over the next year. We have already placed many thousands of young people into work experience opportunities, and we are starting to see some of them move into employment as a result of that, some staying with those who provided the work experience. It will take time for the programme to build right across all the young people who could potentially benefit from it, but I am very keen about this, particularly this summer when another generation of school and college leavers will be coming into the labour market. Our team in Jobcentre Plus will be working hard to give those young people a rapid opportunity to gain real work experience, and not for one week or two weeks, but for an extended period with the hope that in many cases the employer who takes them on will take a look at that young person and say, “Actually, they’re rather good. I’d like to be able to keep them, and we’ll offer them a position.” That has certainly been our experience so far; that is what has been happening in a number of cases. Even if there is not a job opportunity for the young person, we hope that that couple of months of experience—and, I hope, a positive reference from the employer—will give them a leg-up in applying for a further vacancy.

The second part of the equation is also crucial to our strategy to help young people. It is the big increase in the number of apprenticeships. We took a decision very early on, because we think apprenticeships are a better path to help young people down than some of the schemes we inherited from the previous Government. I know that there has been great debate about the future jobs fund, but our view is that a big increase in the number of apprenticeships, with almost 100,000 extra over the past year, is a better way of providing long-term opportunities. This is not simply about the training that people gain as apprentices; the skills they gain in the workplace over an extended period lasting one, two or three years are much more likely to give a young person the foundation for a long-term career. The increase in the number of apprenticeships that we have seen over the past few months will be sustained over the course of this Parliament. These apprenticeships will be available to the young people leaving school and college this summer, and it is very much my hope that many young people who go through those two months of work experience will then be able to stay on as apprentices. I am absolutely of the view that the increased number of apprenticeships is a crucial part of dealing with the issues in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, which he rightly raises.

[Mr Winnick]

I am listening carefully to what the Minister is saying, but it does not alter the fact that the number of apprenticeships in my constituency remains very small compared with elsewhere. I am still wondering how extensive the concentration will be on the areas—this is not just about my constituency, by any means—where the level of unemployment is so high among young people.

[Chris Grayling]

This is very much about us collectively, by which I mean the hon. Gentleman, as a Member of Parliament, and Ministers in overseeing Jobcentre Plus and in our work to try to engage employers in the work experience scheme. One of our key goals has to be to encourage employers to get involved in the apprenticeship scheme and take on apprentices. I think that taking on a good apprentice is a very good way for the employer to add skills at a relatively low cost to their organisation, and we can all play a part in helping that to happen. I give him an absolute commitment that we in the Department for Work and Pensions, in partnership with the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, will work extremely hard to engage employers, including in the hon. Gentleman’s area. I know that his area contains some very good employers and some employers who have recruited from overseas in the past. I would much rather see them recruiting local apprentices, developing them and giving them opportunities. We are very happy to work with him to do anything we can to help engage and involve employers in his constituency. If he is not already in discussion with the employer outreach team in Jobcentre Plus in his area, I would be happy to arrange for such discussions to take place.

The third and newest piece of our jigsaw puzzle to deal with this problem is the introduction of the Work programme, which began in mid-June in the hon. Gentleman’s area. We have a good team of providers in the Birmingham area, who will have centres all around the west midlands—there will be centres in Walsall, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. I strongly believe that the Work programme provides the additional piece that is needed to deal with longer-term youth unemployment and, in particular, to help those who have come from the most challenged backgrounds. I have no doubt that some of the jobseeker’s allowance claimants in his constituency, to whom he refers, are young people who have come out of some of the most challenging backgrounds, and who have left school early without proper skills development and without qualifications. They may well have come from workless households, where they have not had experience of a parent going out to work in the morning. They represent one of the biggest challenges we face in the labour market. Helping them, motivating them and guiding them towards an entry into the labour market is an extremely important challenge for us, and I see it as a central part of what the Work programme providers are there to do.

The Work programme is very clearly intended to be a revolution in the way in which we deliver welfare to work, and I have been visiting providers today in the east midlands to talk about what they are doing. That revolution is most clearly to be found in two things. The first is the freedoms we are giving private, voluntary and public sector organisations involved in the Work programme and working together in teams to decide what works best, to adapt to change and to pursue best practice but, above all, to find the best way of helping people to move into the workplace and stay there. The second crucial part of this revolution is the fact that the scheme is based on payment by results. For the first three years of seven-year contracts, the providers will get a small up-front payment and after that no up-front payment at all; the next money they see will come when someone has been in work for six months. They will have a real incentive to find the best practice and particularly to match individuals to the right vacancy to help them stay in work over a sustained period.

[Mr Winnick]

I asked the Minister when we were likely to return to the situation we faced in 2004. In my remarks, I have tried to avoid controversy so far as it is possible for me to do so, but he will know that I disagree with the Government’s overall economic policy as I think it is deepening the economic downturn. Having said that—I very much mean it, too, as I think the present economic policy is far too severe—may I ask when my part of the world is likely to see the same sort of situation with youth unemployment, if not adult unemployment, as we did in 2004?

[Chris Grayling]

I would love to get a crystal ball out for the hon. Gentleman, but sadly I am not an economic forecaster and I would not want to try to make such an estimate. The official forecasts from the Office for Budget Responsibility, however, expect an increase in employment over the next four years, even after we take into account job losses in the public sector, of just under 1 million positions. Over the past 12 months, private sector employment around the country has increased by about 500,000.

Our key goal should be to ensure that young people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and their counterparts elsewhere who are on jobseeker’s allowance and who are struggling to get into work get all the help they need to take advantage of those jobs as they are created. The OBR will continue to publish forecasts and it is our intention to pursue a growth agenda that fosters and encourages business growth and the creation of jobs. I hope that as the OBR reflects circumstances and the impact of our policies, we will get closer to being able to give him an answer, but I fear that I cannot do that tonight.

I will say, however, that the increase the hon. Gentleman has seen is not simply down to the recession. It is a longer-term trend and problem. Employers are reluctant to take young people straight from school, college and university and sometimes it is easier to recruit from overseas. Our job, as well as that of the teams delivering the work experience opportunities, those delivering apprenticeship opportunities and those working extremely hard on the Work programme, is to ensure that those young people take advantage and get into the vacancies as and when they arise. That will give a generation of young people a genuine opportunity to move into work.

I do not want to see a large number of young people stranded on benefits for years and years and I share the hon. Gentleman’s aspiration to tackle the youth unemployment problem. I am happy to continue to work with him to discuss the issues in his constituency and to encourage our Jobcentre Plus teams to work with him to address those problems. I give him a commitment that youth unemployment in his constituency, and around the country, is a priority for us and we will do everything we can to ease it. We believe it should be at the very top of the Government’s agenda and it will continue to be there until we have cracked it.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Monday 14th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Despite all these fine words, have Ministers seen the complaints that have been much publicised in the past few days that the people being targeted are those with multiple sclerosis and other very acute disabilities? Some of those people have said that if their allowances and benefits are taken away, so severe is their illness that they wonder whether life will be worth living. It is a disgraceful state of affairs that people with the most severe illnesses are being targeted in the current campaign.

[Chris Grayling]

I would say this to the hon. Gentleman: our goal is to do the right thing by people who can make more of their lives. This is not about taking support from people who need indefinite support. We will make sure that people on incapacity benefit who need support and cannot work will continue to be in the support group and will receive a higher level of benefit payment than at present. For those who have the potential to work, we will give them the specialist help they need to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Grayling and David Winnick

Monday 10th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

In view of some of the propaganda put out by the Government and their supporters, saying that unemployed people are reluctant to find work, I should tell the Minister that over the past few weeks the local press in my area has reported that where there are vacancies, more than 100 people have applied for one single vacancy. Does that not demonstrate that up and down the country the unemployed are desperate to find work?

[Chris Grayling]

I have never doubted that there are very large numbers of people on benefits who want work. Our challenge is to make sure that there are sustainable jobs for the future. That is why we are investing in apprenticeships, trying to create a better climate for business and trying to make Britain a good place to create employment for the future. The great tragedy of the past decade is that the previous Government failed to do those things in good times.