Ash Dieback

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 25th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the ash is a very important tree in our ecosystem, which is why we are investing in trying to find, through science, the best and most tolerant trees. We are planting 3,000 of them, out of hundreds of thousands of saplings, precisely because we recognise that that work must be done. Many research faculties, such as those at Kew, are engaged in the process. It is encouraging that we are learning much more about the genome of the ash, which is much wider than that of the elm. The noble and right reverend Lord is absolutely right—we take this seriously, as we must, because our ecosystem will be in peril if we do not deal with these diseases.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister may recognise that ash dieback is a serious problem but I want to press him further. A load of other diseases are waiting in the wings, some of which will make ash dieback look like a walk in the park. Can the Government tell us what they plan to do to develop an accreditation system for UK-sourced and grown trees, so that the trees we grow in this country are sourced, grown and propagated here, rather than imported? That would address at least one source of disease, if not all of them.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. That is why our work with the UK plant biosecurity alliance and the Horticultural Trades Association is so important in forming an assurance scheme that is precisely about growing more in Britain and having heightened biosecurity.

Environment (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition of the statutory instrument. I know that it has made his brain hurt, so he is in common with all of us. I will focus on some specific issues and particularly tax him on one of its more arcane elements. This SI is one of those known as a jumbo regulation, because it sweeps up so many provisions in a high-level way, but it has one oddity. Regulation 5(4) dives into the detail of the Northumbria and Solway Tweed river basins. Can the Minister explain this arcanity in his response?

In a more mainstream way, I want to focus on some other issues. The Schedule to the regulations stops the EU legislation on the environmental action programme, EMAS and the Ecolabel from being brought into UK law. Personally, I am sad that we will no longer have the framework of the environmental action programmes, which were, at a minimum, the forum for EU member states to come together to express ambition for the environment. In my experience, EU Ministers and the Commission working together were braver and bolder than they would be individually when they came back home and were faced with conflicting pressures against the environment. That is another loss that we will suffer from leaving the Union.

I turn to EMAS, the European Management and Audit Scheme, of which we will no longer be a part when we leave the EU. The Minister kindly provided a briefing session involving him and a veritable army of Defra civil servants; I think of the £4 billion costs so far of exiting the EU. We were rather surprised to learn at the briefing that, as he outlined, only 17 organisations in the UK have adopted EMAS, compared to 16,000 which perform to ISA 14001, which is the global standard.

The Minister confirmed that the Government are, therefore, not planning to develop an EMAS-type scheme for the UK after Brexit. EMAS has some benefits in its approach which are beyond ISA 14001. It delivers not just continuous improvement in environmental performance and credibility—it is externally validated—but, most importantly, it promotes much greater transparency, with publicly available information on environmental performance by businesses and organisations. I ask the Minister to consider how this virtue of greater transparency could be applied to environmental performance schemes in the UK, post Brexit. What arrangements will be made for promoting continuous improvement in the environmental performance of businesses and other organisations?

At the Minister’s briefing sessions, we also heard that only 50 UK organisations use the EU Ecolabel. Ecolabels—for they are many and varied—help the public make informed purchasing choices in products and services with a reduced environmental impact. The Government made a commitment, through the waste and resources strategy, to look at developing a UK ecolabel. I say commitment, but the strategy actually says that the Government will consult key stakeholders, consult “more widely”, consider whether ecolabelling makes any difference to the public’s buying habits, consider how to encourage the public to use label information in purchasing, then decide whether a statutory scheme is needed at all. Perhaps business could just do it.

This all seems a bit “jam tomorrow”. I know that Defra is the department for food, farming and rural affairs, but tomorrow’s jam is the only food it seems to concentrate on these days. I assume that all this considering and consulting cannot happen before 29 March, so we have another example of a gap in the environmental governance framework post Brexit, with no clear timetable for the introduction of a UK alternative ecolabel. Can the Minister tell us the timetable for the introduction of a UK ecolabel and whether it will cover simply waste and resources issues or the wider environmental impacts of products and services?

Of course, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, it will be important for us to maintain alignment with the EU Ecolabel scheme if we want to trade with our nearest neighbours. What assurances can the Minister give that importers and exporters will not have to operate with different labels for the home market and the export market? In the midst of all that, how will he ensure that ecolabelling is kept as simple as possible for consumers?

While we are talking about tomorrow’s jam, the major hiatus concerns who will monitor, enforce, sanction and handle complaints about the way the new arrangements are carried out by UK authorities. We are not talking about inconsequential matters: this SI alone covers serious environmental issues contained in the Environmental Protection Act, the Pollution Prevention and Control Act, and regulations on contaminated land and environmental noise—to name but a few. The Government promised us the office for environmental protection to fill some of the gaps left by the substantial remedies we currently enjoy as an EU member, which will disappear as we leave the EU. For example, in instances where government and public bodies fail to perform, cases can be referred to Europe, with remedies through the infraction and fining process and, ultimately, the judgments of the European Court of Justice. However, we have no timetable for the legislation needed to create the office for environmental protection—the environment Bill—or its establishment in practical terms. We have no clarity yet about the real weight of its powers.

The talk on the streets is that, bearing the legislative timetable in mind, the OEP is unlikely to be fully operative until the end of the transition period, if we have one. Can the Minister confirm his understanding of the timetable? He very kindly wrote to me to say that there would be interim arrangements in the meantime but that he could not yet tell me what they might be. We are only six weeks away from potentially needing such arrangements. Either Ministers know what they are planning, and arrangements are under way behind the scenes but they are unwilling to be open with Parliament, or they do not know and no arrangements are being planned. Which is worse: being secretive or being unprepared? It is a case of one or the other; I leave noble Lords to choose one.

The environment and the people of this country are at risk from this potentially protracted governance gap. Is the Minister in a position yet to provide a timetable for the permanent and interim solutions? Can he give the House details of, or even a broad clue about, the interim solution? I hope that he accepts these comments and questions as a constructive contribution, as they are intended.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I will say from the outset that I consider all the contributions made in the debate immensely constructive. If I am not in a position to answer any questions concerning precise detail, I will address them in due course. I was struck by the exchanges between my noble friend Lady Byford and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty; I have been in other skirmishes with them when they put their heads together, knowing that they dealt with the water Bill or whatever, so I know that I am in difficult territory. I can confirm that my noble friend Lady Byford is absolutely right that there is no change of policy.

Noble Lords raised ecolabelling and EMAS immediately. As I said, we are not in a position to continue with those schemes because we are leaving the EU. However, if we get a deal, such arrangements and schemes would continue during the implementation period; everyone seems to be working extremely hard on that. Of course, how those schemes could continue would then be open to further phases of negotiation. The question concerns how we would proceed given that, as the EU has conceded, uptake across the European Union for such schemes has been low. I was struck by the number of participants in ISO schemes compared with European ones: thousands of organisations in EU countries are registered with the ISO, but only a comparatively small number are registered with EU schemes. I do not wish to denigrate the EU Ecolabel or EMAS in any way, but it is worth considering that the number of UK-based registrants to ISO schemes is substantial.

A number of questions were asked about our vision. Noble Lords have heard this before but our vision is for environmental standards to be not only maintained but enhanced. Our waste and resources strategy recognised that information transparency is essential. As I said, we will develop options for domestic ecolabelling before consulting more widely. I am not in a position to outline the precise timing for that, but we wish to develop those options as part of our strategy. I suspect that if we get a deal—I hope we do—the ISO scheme, which runs in parallel with the ecolabelling scheme, will continue. I am sure that we would welcome noble Lords’ views about how best to ecolabel.

One issue is particularly important. I sympathise with noble Lords and say that we have a lot of ambition for primary legislation. We wish to enshrine in the environment Bill the 25-year environment plan and the establishment of the Office for Environmental Protection, which will be independent and will hold the Government to account. It is a matter of parliamentary timing. We said that legislation would be brought forward in the second Session, and we are absolutely clear that it will have teeth. It will ensure that all the areas referred to by noble Lords who have concerns about governance are addressed.

I wrote to the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Young of Old Scone, about interim arrangements. I am not in a position tonight to say precisely what they are. I do not recognise what the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, said, because we have said in public that we are considering interim arrangements. I am simply not in a position to say tonight. I know that it is being worked on, because it has come from colleagues that this matter is being worked on. I have promised to tell both noble Baronesses, as well as all noble Lords in this debate, as soon as there is some announcement about what the interim arrangements are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have to say that that area is not what this statutory instrument is about. I can say that we will bring forward measures so that there is no gap in environmental governance in the event of a no-deal Brexit. We fully realise that the independent environmental body will not be complete; we have to have primary legislation for that. But I can say—I hope it provides some reassurance—that once the office comes into effect it will have the power to review and take action on any breaches that occur from the day of us leaving. There will therefore be no period of time during which government actions cannot be held to account by an enforcement agency. I hope that is an assurance that the Government’s bona fides on this are very strong and that we do not want there to be an environmental governance gap. I am not sure that I can add anything further, but I look forward to the noble Baroness’s intervention.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I thank the Minister for giving way. I just express a slight nervousness about the provision, which I absolutely recognise is necessary, for the new body to be able to take action on complaints that arise from the day of exit, whenever that is. If we were to leave without a deal and the new body did not come into being for 18 months or two years, which is quite possible under the current timetable, I would not like to think of this growing pile of complaints mounting up as the new body comes into being, so that its first act is facing a huge backlog.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely accept what the noble Baroness has said. It is our duty as a Government, whoever is in office, to ensure that we enhance the environment. That is the whole purpose of the 25-year environmental plan, but I am very conscious of what the noble Baroness has said. In the meantime, I commend this instrument to the Committee.

Environment and Wildlife (Legislative Functions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations will allow UK authorities to exercise legislative functions in the UK after exit day in a range of areas, including, as has already been outlined, persistent organic pollutants, importation of timber products and derogations from certain CITES provisions.

The Explanatory Memorandum says that this statutory instrument does not make any substantive policy changes, but the UK public authorities exercising these newly transferred functions could immediately make changes that would have significant environmental impacts. So these regulations open up the way for significant policy changes. In view of the scale and importance of the powers being transferred to the appropriate public authority, can the Minister give assurances on the following concerns?

Will these powers remain with the Secretary of State and the equivalent in the devolved Administrations and not be delegated further? Bearing in mind the comments made during the debate on a previous SI, on the governance gap and the lack of an oversight and sanctioning body, how will these public authorities be held accountable? How will complaints against their operation of these new powers be handled?

The SI does not include mechanisms for enabling access to the necessary expert and technical advice. Do the appropriate public authorities have access to sufficient expert or technical input, and will that be sought and published on every change proposed? How do the Government intend to access the wealth of scientific and technical expertise and data available across the EU which might not be replicable within the UK? What access will the UK have, during the implementation period and after EU exit, to the EU’s systems for tracking and sharing relevant data?

Turning to the issue of consultation, what commitment will the Government make for consultation on the future exercise of these powers and proposals for changes by the appropriate public authority? The statutory instrument lays out, at Regulation 9(10), limited consultation arrangements in one specific area under the powers to make decisions on best available technique—BAT—but not on any other powers. Can the Minister assure the House that wide consultation will be the norm, with stakeholders, NGOs and the public?

I now turn to devolution. These amending regulations, as the Minister has explained, cover legislation in areas where all four nations are currently bound by the same EU requirements. The Minister very kindly at his briefing session assured us that the regulations have been discussed and agreed with the devolved Administrations, and the degree of devolution in transferring the powers to an appropriate public body has been designed on the basis of whether the matters are reserved matters. That was fine where the policy framework and the standards were EU-wide while implementation was devolved to the four nations. In the future, when policy and implementation are devolved to the nations, divergence in standards could happen quite quickly. This would have an impact on businesses operating across the four nations and on their ability to trade with our EU neighbours.

Let me give an example from Part 3 of the statutory instrument. BAT—best available technique—is one of the foundations of environmental regulation covering industrial emissions and is the basis of the regulation of things such as cement plants, steel works, power stations and chemical works that create emissions. If we have four different versions, potentially, of best available technique across the four nations, how would UK-wide regulated companies cope? How would they trade their technologies to our European neighbours, which might be regulating against a fifth version of best available technology? This cannot be sensible. That is only one example of how diverging standards across the four nations would not be good for British business and possibly not good for the environment as well.

I welcome the confirmation from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on 28 January in the other place of the Government’s,

“intention to work towards a common framework for a number of different regulations”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 28/1/19; cols. 7-8.].

Can the Minister tell the House when this common framework will be published and when it will come into effect? What regulations will it cover?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses for their contributions to this debate.

I hope that I can clarify immediately for the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, the issue of leghold traps. Perhaps I should have referred to it, but in my opening remarks I said that Regulations 10 and 11 confer functions under the EU regulations governing the use of leghold traps and the import of pelts. I went on then to talk about the distinct two elements, which are in effect about forms and the format of forms. By way of reassurance, it is not that there will be no requirement for statutory instruments on leghold traps but that, candidly—proportionately—most people would think it unreasonable to have a statutory instrument on the format of a form. I hope that I can immediately take that concern out of the way.

On CITES, we are considered a very strong participant in CITES and we take our international obligations extremely seriously. I was at the conference in London during the passage of the Ivory Bill and many countries there recognised what our country is doing. We are a party to CITES in our own right. We have higher protections than mandated by that convention, and we will comply with all international decisions made at the CITES meeting in May this year. Clearly, it is important that there is alignment not only among us in Europe but across the world to ensure the importance of looking after wildlife around the world. Certainly, our commitment in terms of our international obligations is very strong. Whatever arrangements there are, we will want to work very closely with partners in the EU and internationally.

To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, if this statutory instrument is passed today, we will be in a position through statutory instruments to make changes. These are distinct technical areas that we are taking forward, but more generally I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness and noble Lords that we wish to enhance rather than retreat. There may be changes, but this particular statutory instrument deals with those technical points that we are drawing back.

The issue of expertise is hugely important. The Government rely on the best experts available. We will use our consultation principles requiring relevant expert advice to be sought where appropriate, and those affected by any policy must be properly consulted. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that, in the case of these regulations, Regulation 9(10) explicitly requires the Secretary of State, or DA Ministers as appropriate, to consult bodies and persons likely to be affected. Of course, many of the obligations relevant to these regulations derive from our participation in international conventions such as the Stockholm convention on POPs and the CITES convention and will continue to involve us directly in multilateral expert dialogues. But the noble Baroness is right. Clearly in this area we will want to seek the views of experts and we will want to consult.

Access to EU systems will clearly be a matter for negotiation. We are all working for a deal, but I very much hope that, in terms of access, the importance of mutuality across the continent will mean that we continue to work collaboratively together.

I do not have in front of me a precise note of timings on the common framework, but the noble Baroness is absolutely right. The discussions that we have had with the devolved Administrations on this matter and others show that, for all the political knockabout, it makes sense in so much of this to work together on a UK basis. That is why, although some of the matters are devolved, we have worked extremely collaboratively and productively with the devolved Administrations. The whole purpose of the common framework is to acknowledge exactly what the noble Baroness said. We all agree mutually that any divergence should be the exception in something like this because I am sure that we all—in England in the UK Government and in the devolved Administrations—want to work positively for the environment. As soon as I am in a position to clarify anything further about the common framework I will, but all I can say is that I hear very positive signs of what I think we would all suggest was a common-sense way forward on such important matters.

I will study Hansard and if there are any particular points that I have not covered, I will of course write. In the meantime, I beg to move.

Fly-tipping

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Thursday 31st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the right reverend Prelate. The fly-tipping and littering that we see in our country is unacceptable. One example is that of partnership. For instance, in his own diocese, the Hertfordshire Waste Partnership has brought together a range of organisations to agree on a common approach to tackle fly-tipping. It has seen a fall of 18% in incidents from 2016-17 to 2017-18. On local authority enforcement actions, there are over 300,000 investigations and a lot of hard work is going on. Partnership is the way that we are going to tackle this.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, as chairman of the Woodland Trust, I can confirm what the right reverend Prelate said. This is a growing problem not just in AONBs but right across our woods and open countryside. It has got worse as local authority cuts have meant that waste disposal services are less readily available, particularly for green waste, which in many authorities is now charged for. As well as giving additional powers to local authorities, will the Minister seriously consider whether the resource constraints are a problem? The public also now need to be enlisted in much greater numbers to control this issue. Will he launch, together with local authorities, the Environment Agency and Crimestoppers, a public awareness campaign to ensure that the public report incidents—with vehicle numbers, where possible—and that, when they are approached by a white van man or a building contractor who will dispose of waste on their behalf, they personally check that that contractor is licensed and will take the waste to a licensed site? I commend to all noble Lords in the House today the idea of following the skip to the tip. It can be a very interesting journey.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I agree with a very considerable amount of what the noble Baroness has said. We need to educate people much more: one in five people consciously drop litter—one in four fail to tidy, or place, their litter—so there is a lot of work we need to do to educate. We are working with local authorities because we think that is the way forward. I would endorse the Great British Spring Clean of March and April as a way in which civil society can get much involved.

Floods and Water (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will continue to talk about the regulator, but I will say that I know from my experience of the judicial reviews of ClientEarth, of which a number of your Lordships are well aware, that it is clearly a route by which these matters have been dealt with.

As I was about to say, the holding arrangement shows the Government’s bona fides, and we will provide that mechanism for the OEP to receive a report of any perceived or claimed breaches of environmental law made during any interim period.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I was intrigued by the noble Lord’s statement that the OEP would enforce regulation and compliance if the Government were not complying. Can he give us further details on the enforcement mechanism? The big worry is that we will have a regulator without the ability to enforce government compliance with environmental standards.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I admire the noble Baroness’s inquiring mind. Clearly, that will be relevant to the environment Bill in the next Session, and to many of the deliberations in the other place and here. We are embarking on a very important move and I invite your Lordships to be fully engaged. We want to get it right for the long term.

On EU standards, I absolutely get the point expressed —and with passion—by the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lord Deben. But it may be that a future Government of this country want to go further than the EU. We should be less pessimistic about our future in this country, whatever we think about arrangements. There may be intricacies of our national life that mean we want to go further than the EU standards of the time. I get the point, however, and of course we want to safeguard and improve the record that has been achieved. For example, there are some very good statistics on how bathing waters have improved. I particularly admire what Surfers Against Sewage has done—it has been tremendous in raising the public profile of this issue—and I also appreciate what many other organisations have done, in a European context and in the UK. However, the withdrawal Act ensures that existing standards transposed into domestic law will be retained. We want to maintain these high regulatory environmental standards and, as I said, improve on them wherever possible.

On the question of water supply fittings—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

Perhaps I might press the Minister on the consultation arrangements. This is a point I have made previously, and I wish I had pushed it harder. We appreciate that various environmental NGOs and others were given sight of the instrument before it was laid because that gave an opportunity to get expert input into it. I wonder whether there is an opportunity to bring parliamentarians into that process in future SIs because the risk is that an SI is laid and we have no opportunity to amend it in any significant way because of the process. It might be helpful if parliamentarians who are interested in the technicalities of these SIs could see them before they are laid so that they could also have an influence on them at a time when it is possible to make changes.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have a feeling that that may be above my pay grade, but it is certainly an interesting and legitimate point. In all these areas, obviously we want to bring forward statutory instruments and legislation that command the support of Parliament. Parliamentary scrutiny—certainly the scrutiny that your Lordships present—is challenging and keeps a Minister on their toes and the Government’s feet to the fire. On this technical matter, I—

Northern Forest

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the northern forest will undoubtedly bring benefits for people, wildlife and the environment. Planting the right trees in the right places will reduce flood risk; help adapt to climate change; improve air quality, health and well-being; increase biodiversity; enhance landscapes; and, indeed, build resilience for our treescapes. I like my noble friend’s suggestion, and will ensure that the Woodland Trust and England’s Community Forests are aware of it.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Woodland Trust. I am delighted that the Government have embraced with such alacrity the concept we dreamt up, and I thank the Minister for the £5.7 million. However, it is a £500 million project, and is not just about trees. It will improve air quality in towns, mitigate flood risk, help to promote rural economies and deliver improvements in health and well-being, not only in the rural environment but in the urban environment. Will the Minister consider whether budgets that are focused at the moment on those wider benefits might be used in some way to help to promote and find the total cost of the northern forest?

Brexit: Environmental Enforcement Agency

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 8th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, again, I do not want to pre-empt the consultation. We want a wide consultation and stakeholders, your Lordships and others to participate in it. We need to fill the governance gap, particularly as we wish to enhance the environment. I hope that before too long we will publish the 25-year environment plan. We want to enhance the environment, and that is a step forward. I assure the noble Baroness that we wish to have a rigorous environmental body.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister pointed out that this measure is aimed at closing the governance gap. One of the major benefits of the EU enforcement mechanism was that it could enforce fines against the Government in infraction proceedings. I have not been able to find another UK independent regulator which has that power at the moment. Can the Minister tell us whether the new independent regulator will be able to enforce environment standards not only on public bodies but on the Government?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I will be straightforward. We want to proceed with this because we think government and public bodies should be held to account. We have existing frameworks, regulators, judicial review processes and Parliament ensuring that the Executive are accountable to them and, ultimately, to the electorate. This is an important matter, and we are going to consult widely. We have not ruled anything in or out. We want a full consultation so that we can understand what stakeholders and other interested groups think is the best way forward in holding government and public bodies to account.