Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Cromwell

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Very briefly, I found that a fascinating exposition and would happily discuss it further outside the Chamber with the noble Lord. The logical corollary of it is that it is therefore almost impossible to calculate what the levy should be, because you are dealing with unknowns into an 80-year period. But let us not discuss it now—let us move on.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree—let us not discuss it now.

Amendment 309A in my name may not be required, but I would like some reassurance from the Minister. As currently drafted, the Bill outlines Natural England’s role under the nature restoration levy in spending funds and in monitoring the implementation of the EDPs—monitoring, as it were, the inputs and actions that are needed under the EDPs. There is no explicit duty as far as I understand—but I would like clarification —to ensure that the plans result in real ecological improvements and outcomes on the ground. By that I mean not just whether the EDP has done was it said it would but whether it has delivered the goods as a result of those actions. My amendment would make sure that Natural England had to demonstrate that the outcomes planned were being delivered and the plan was working.

The only requirement I can find—I am sure the Minister will say that this is sufficient—is that the EDP reporting requirements that are laid on Natural England in Clause 62 already ensure that it will report on whether the conservation measures are having or have had their intended effect. It would be good to have confirmation that she believes this means that it has to report on outcomes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I very rarely disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Curry, because he knows a lot, and I very rarely disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, because otherwise, he might poison my breakfast—but on this occasion, I feel I have to comment.

I understand entirely that the noble Lord, Lord Curry, is worried that the emerging, very valuable nature markets should not be eclipsed totally by the levy and Natural England’s role. However, some of the amendments in this group tip the balance too far the other way and say that nature markets must be the first port of call and not considered alongside all other potential organisations that can deliver the right solution for the right site for a particular EDP.

The existing nature market products are very valuable; some of them are less so. However, there are a shedload of organisations and groups that could deliver the requirements of an EDP for Natural England, such as some of the large charities, the ENGOs, farmers, groups of farmers, other landowners and the Forestry Commission. The role of Natural England must be to consider which of those organisations, or groups of them, should be the best way forward, including private nature markets but not giving a pre-eminent place to them and them preventing Natural England choosing perhaps the most effective partner, who would be someone who is local, onsite, available, already working in providing nature outcomes and could do more work to help with that EDP.

I would be particularly unkeen that we avoid Natural England being able to do it itself. On occasion, if there is work that can be delivered to take forward an EDP next to a national nature reserve that is already managed by Natural England, why should Natural England not simply do that by extension? It would be the most sensible proposition.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I would like to assure the Committee that I am looking forward to many convivial and toxin-free breakfasts with the noble Baroness, Lady Young, in the future—in case anybody was worried that I had, in some way, threatened her with anything else. That was far away from anything I would wish to do.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Young of Old Scone and Lord Cromwell

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to three practical amendments in my name in this group: Amendments 44, 46 and 49. They are modest and proportionate—perhaps that is my catchphrase. I support and echo almost everything, I think, that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said a few moments ago, especially about citizen science.

Public accountability and transparency need data that is both sufficient and timely. As currently drafted, I do not think that this Bill does that sufficiently. My Amendments 44 and 46 together would solve this. Amendment 44 provides for relevant information to be made publicly available and Amendment 46 recognises that this is not something that can always be provided immediately—I am trying to anticipate the Minister’s reply here. Amendment 46 would allow the water companies to indicate when the information would be available, rather than requiring them to produce it immediately. By including these questions in the Bill while allowing a reasonable approach to how soon it can be provided, the amendments would fill the information and accountability gap that is in the Bill currently.

To turn to Amendment 49, experience shows that allowing companies—we had this exact issue during the passage of the Modern Slavery Bill, by the way—to report things exclusively on their own websites results in difficulties such as differences in the information that is included, where it is shown, how easily it can be found and how fully it is reported. That makes it unnecessarily difficult for those seeking to monitor performance on a comparative or aggregated basis. As represented in my amendment, putting this into one place where it is accessible to everybody is not a large amount of work. It is simply a matter of the water company putting it on its own website and firing off a link to the authority, which can put it on its website. That is how it should be, and it would enable comparative measures of performance, which will be lacking if water companies bury this on their own websites and report it in different ways.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a large group of amendments and I am going to go on a bit; I apologise for that. I will speak first of all to my Amendment 45, which is a probing amendment. I should say, for the avoidance of doubt, that I declare no beavers. The Bill requires sewerage undertakers to publish a range of information when there is a discharge from an emergency overflow. My Amendment 45 would add a requirement that such monitoring and reporting should include whether what are known as “emerging contaminants” are present, including but not limited to per-fluoroalkyl and poly-fluoroalkyl substances—PFAS—and microplastics.

Let me explain why this is important. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, expressed worries about these sorts of chemicals in discharges in national parks, but it not just national parks; these discharges are happening everywhere. PFAS are serious pollutants and occur in entirely innocent-looking products and processes. They accumulate in our rivers and seas, they are persistent and cannot be extracted, and they harm both human and animal health. These PFAS are used in over 200 applications, and I felt pretty guilty when I was briefed on these applications by the Marine Stewardship Council, as I—and probably other noble Lords—use these harmful applications, day in, day out. PFAS are used in anything with Teflon, for example, including non-stick pots, in waterproof clothing, in stain-resisting products, in cosmetics, in firefighting foams, and even in Apple watchstraps. My daily slow-release pills that keep me alive in the face of ulcerative colitis send PFAS into the water environment straight from my gut. So I and all noble Lords are responsible for all of this.

PFAS are tricky to manage: they reach the water environment as particulates through storm or emergency overflows from sewage treatment works, but also from sewage sludge spread on the land or from being sprayed directly into the environment, as with firefighting foams. Once in our waters, they cause damage to wildlife and human health. Although some PFAS can be removed at sewage treatment works, the only secure way to deal with them is to ban those PFAS for which there is a viable alternative—there are a number of viable alternatives for many PFAS—and then seek to develop alternatives for those for which there are not yet alternatives.