Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 9th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my environmental interests, as well as my interest as chair of the Royal Veterinary College. I had not really thought of declaring my Australian and New Zealand relatives until I was reminded by several previous speakers. I have umpteen of them. We were good Scots: we spotted the £10 immigration grant—the Ten Pound Poms scheme, as it was known—and took full advantage of it. I am a frequent visitor to Australia and New Zealand.

Noble Lords have remarked upon the fact that this Bill is very narrow in scope in that it deals only with the power to implement the obligations in the government procurement chapters of the two FTAs, but it is of course an open goal in terms of the opportunity to talk about the wider issues of trade agreements, including the scrutiny process. I would also like to focus on environmental standards. I hope that these broader comments will benefit future agreements.

On the scrutiny process, much of the scrutiny happens far too late. It needs to take place before things are set in concrete. I welcomed the assurances from the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, about future ground rules and improvements in the processes, but they did not go far enough. We need full parliamentary debate and agreement on negotiating objectives before negotiation starts, and proper opportunity for parliamentary debate in both Houses before the agreement is signed, not after—or, in the case of these two agreements, never at all, as far as the House of Commons was concerned.

As the noble Lord, Lord Frost, said, we used to have such provisions in place for trade and other negotiations within an EU setting. It is slightly bizarre that we do not have such open arrangements now that we are allegedly free to do what we want. Perhaps the Minister will tell us how he intends to reinstitute those processes.

I would also like, in common with other noble Lords, to talk about trade strategy, or the absence thereof. All future agreements need to be set in the context of a proper trade strategy. The International Agreements Committee, the International Trade Committee and the EFRA Committee have all asked for a trade strategy, and I am sure that many noble Lords will today. I hope it will cover such crucial issues as whether the Department for International Trade has a clear role in promoting democratic values and environmental reform through trade.

I turn to some specific areas in relation to environment and agriculture. I was rather taken aback at how almost incandescently messianic the Minister was about the benefits of these two agreements; I thought I might have been reading two different agreements. Let me be a party pooper, perhaps, or diminish the messianic nature of the Minister’s rapture, and talk about some of the issues that some people are not quite so convinced about as he is in terms of the environment and agriculture.

On the process for environmental impact assessments, EIAs happen only after the signing; they take no account of cumulative effects of several trade deals; and they do not really cover such key issues as transport-related emissions and the potential for increased carbon leakage. There are no permanent bilateral safeguards to ensure that imports with lower environmental standards than those we set in the UK do not come into this country. So, the EIAs result in an incomplete picture which can obscure the true risk of offshoring climate and environmental impacts as a result of trade agreements. If we think that was a minor issue in the Australia and New Zealand agreements, we ain’t seen nothing yet—we are going to be dealing with much bigger fish to fry in the future.

I am still monumentally unclear about how environmental standards of imports are monitored on an ongoing basis. During our debate on the Trade Bill, the Minister assured us that systems were in place but gave us no detail. To be honest, at that stage I had almost given up the will to live in dealing with these issues and did not pursue it, but I entirely plan to continue to pursue it now. Will the Minister tell us what the systems are for monitoring environmental standards of imports on an ongoing basis? What review has there been so far of their effectiveness? What remedies are there, apart from the transient remedies in these two agreements, if such standards are infringed?

I turn to agriculture. I was never a great fan of the Trade and Agriculture Commission; it is pretty light on environmental expertise and comes into play only once FTAs are signed, which is a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. The Trade and Agriculture Commission reported on the UK-Australia FTA, but this process needs to be strengthened by expanding the remit of the TAC and the scope of the Government’s report required under Section 42 of the Agriculture Act. At present, both are incredibly narrow, and that is compounded by the fact that the TAC also has very limited resources, including limited expertise, to conduct proper scrutiny of larger, more complex negotiations in future. That needs to be addressed before we start playing with the big boys, otherwise the Government will not get proper, early enough and wide enough advice from the TAC. In the Australia agreement, that has resulted in several outstanding questions being left unanswered. For example, how far can Australia’s less stringent regulation of pesticides interplay with and give an unfair competitive advantage to them over UK producers?

We want the TAC to be involved in and comment on how negotiations should be framed rather than only examining agreements once they are signed. I also believe that the TAC should be tasked on an ongoing basis to consider the cumulative impacts of trade deals.

What about the impact of the two agreements on farmers in the UK? It is interesting that the National Farmers’ Union is not so messianic about the benefits for British farming as the Minister is. The flaw in these agreements is that they offer us very small markets which already have only low-tariff barriers, so there is not a huge benefit in the agricultural sphere to this country. On the downside, both of the countries with which we are making free trade agreements are big exporters, which could swamp our smaller-scale UK markets. The temporary bilateral safeguards that are our freight quotas are just that: temporary. They are also bilateral and probably will not persist in the face of WTO arrangements. Can the Minister tell us how swamping UK markets can be prevented in future negotiations with even bigger producing and exporting nations? Or does he really want us to be a niche agricultural product nation?

I hope over the course of this Bill we can tempt the Minister down from his ecstatic heights at these two FTAs to address some very real concerns about these deals and the future processes. With our traditional relationship with, no doubt, hundreds of my relatives in Australia and New Zealand, these agreements were conducted on comparatively friendly terms. We need to sort out these processes before we start playing footsie with some bigger and more aggressive beasts in the trade jungle.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am grateful for that point and would be happy to clarify. I will certainly work closely with the noble Lord in Committee.

My point is that Australian imports already operate below the existing quotas. Even if we said that we were not going to have a trade deal with Australia and decided that we did not want to go ahead with a deal that I think will be hugely beneficial, we already have a quota system where the Australians are importing less. If we go to a new arrangement where, over 10 or 15 years, we gradually liberalise our agricultural imports, the very fact that we are increasing that higher level does not necessitate that we are going to put ourselves in a more disadvantaged position. I am not trying to suggest that the impact assessments are not correct. I have been sensitive about that; I said at the beginning that there are impacts and there will be change. We must be sensitive to that. However, I am saying that the claims that we are going to have a significant tsunami of Australian beef coming into the UK simply do not make logical sense when we are already importing less than the quotas imply. It is important to mention that.

We have also touched on another relevant point. There are production differences between Australia and New Zealand; my noble friend Lord Hannan of Kingsclere mentioned this earlier. It is important that we take advantage of that fact. I will not be too much longer but let me quote the TAC, which states that

“different production practices between countries are a function of different climatic, geographical, agronomic, environmental, economic and cultural conditions. Australian cattle and sheep live their lives outdoors, mainly on very large stations, which is different in the UK. It can never be assumed that what is normal in one country needs to be normal in another … Moreover, the international trading system, of which free trade agreements form a part, is predicated upon the understanding that countries should be able to benefit from advantages which they enjoy over their trading partners. Trade law, in principle, prohibits countries from restricting imports of products simply based on how they are made, whether this is by using their more abundant sunshine, land, educational skills or lower labour costs.”

This is important. We are trying to do a trade deal where we have, enjoy and appreciate comparative advantage while at the same time being extremely firm on the controls that we will put in place to make sure that, if there is a significant increase in imports into the UK, we can restrict those imports and ensure that our farmers are protected. Following the 15-year point, we will still have WTO restrictions that we can fall back on.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Before the Minister finishes, I hope that he will give way for a microsecond. During my contribution, I asked whether he could let us have some detail of the systems that are in place to keep under surveillance the environmental, animal welfare and other standards on which he is giving us assurances, including how effectively they are operating. Will he agree to do that before we reach Committee?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. I am about to go on to that exact chapter in making my final point on standards, which are important. I take this issue to heart.

It is absolutely essential for everyone to realise that nothing has really changed in terms of our standards. In fact, we believe that, in some instances, we have increased our ability to protect ourselves. I want to quote from some of the important chapters in the Trade and Agriculture Commission’s report, if noble Lords will indulge me; I know that my noble friend Lady McIntosh wanted me to touch on these matters as well. The report states:

“Importantly, all of these trade liberalisation obligations are fully covered by general exceptions, taken from WTO law, ensuring that the UK can regulate to protect animal or plant life or health … In addition, the FTA contains several rules in its environment and animal welfare chapters that expand on these rights to regulate, which gives the UK more leeway to override its trade liberalisation obligations—


that goes to the whole friction between these points—

“than it would have under WTO law.”

This is very important. We are ironclad in our ability to control our standards.

The concept of mulesing was raised. The TCA sees an increase in imports of mutton from mulesed sheep as negligible, and the FTA does not restrict the UK’s WTO rights to prohibit imports of products from Australia produced using the practice of mulesing without pain relief. I was told that 90% of all mulesing is done with pain relief. Yes, there are different practices and clearly, mulesing is not relevant in the UK because of flystrike and other conditions, but we have the ability to protect ourselves and we still have the ability to ensure that the food and goods we import conform to our standards.

Also, in terms of animal welfare, these chapters are ground-breaking. It is worth using those words, which are appropriate. We have driven change there, and it reflects our values. New Zealand and Australia have a very strong commitment to raising animal welfare standards. It is also very important to point out that we still have complete control over pesticides and other such matters. Our approval process involves audit and assessment of a country’s system. Products entering the UK must be accompanied by certificates and a percentage are subject to physical checks to ensure that standards are maintained. We have worked very closely with the Food Standards Agency and Food Standards Scotland. This is very important and—

Education (Environment and Sustainable Citizenship) Bill [HL]

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 16th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome this Bill and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for introducing it and for his clear and very compelling case in doing so. All citizens of the future need to understand about the twin challenges of biodiversity decline and climate change if they are to be responsible citizens. Younger people, to a large extent, understand the importance of these two issues but not all of them do, so this change to the curriculum needs to be universal.

Ofsted reports have shown that education for sustainability is often an add-on or end-of-year activity, rather than being embedded for all children throughout the year. This means that many children are denied the right to develop sustainable citizenship knowledge, skills and mindsets. That will have a real impact on individuals’ life chances, on communities, businesses and the economy, and on global Britain’s place in the world, so it is fundamental. I challenge the noble Lord, Lord Hannan, because we are talking about threading these issues through the entire knowledge, skills and attitudes base that children work with in their school careers. This is an existential threat that we are facing, not just an add-on or another thing to be levered into the curriculum.

As a Private Member’s Bill, the scope covered by it necessarily has to be focused, but I hope that the Minister will also respond on another way that our educational system needs to rise to the environmental challenge. Efforts to combat climate change and biodiversity decline will need to be heroic in their scale over the next decades. We will need a ready supply of new skills, and some old skills. I declare an interest as a patron of the Chartered Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management. I was its first chartered environmentalist and my registration number, of which I am very proud, is 001.

The Government are introducing a huge range of policy and legislative measures, right across departments, to deliver the objectives of the Climate Change Act and their 25-year environment plan. I will give one simple example of how that impacts on the need for skills. Policies on things such as biodiversity net gain, local nature recovery strategies and whatever planning system changes we will see when the Government eventually launch them will need ecologists, environmental data specialists and environmental mappers and modellers—probably more environmental lawyers, heaven help us.

Likewise, if we are to avoid the sort of catastrophe we have just seen in Belgium and Germany, climate change mitigation and adaptation will need green energy technologists and installers, experts in sustainable flood risk management, and skills in inventing and manufacturing electric vehicles, to name but a few. We in this country do not yet have a sustainability skills strategy, as called for by the Institute for Government this week. I hope that the Minister can tell us when we will get a skills strategy that will cope with the challenges.

I say “hope”; I share the outrage of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, at the Department for Education’s submission to the Select Committee on Environment and Climate Change, which we reviewed this week. It was pathetic. It was almost laughable, if it were not so serious, that the Department for Education is only just beginning to look at a systematic response over the next nine months. I hope that the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, will also help to correct that staggering lack of momentum on the part of that department.

Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 15th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Royal Veterinary College and former chancellor of Cranfield University and my various environmental interests. It is really great to be number 50 on a speakers’ list; everything that could be said has been said, but unfortunately I have not yet said it, so I will try to be brief.

I welcome the Bill in principle for its provisions on technical skills education and lifelong learning opportunities for all, but it misses a real opportunity that has already been raised by a number of Peers. The twin challenges of climate change and biodiversity decline are the biggest existential threats globally; the Bill needs to respond to that and to take an ambitious approach to developing the wide range of skills to meet our global climate and nature goals and to exploit new UK and global markets and jobs that these goals are already creating.

We need to move to a prosperous zero-carbon economy and society with the help of the Bill. It should be a catalyst for building the wider public understanding and behavioural change fundamental to meeting net zero and reversing biodiversity loss, such as in the case of those challenges driven by our rising consumption across the globe. This is not just my view—businesses, educators and learners have all expressed their views and provided strong evidence that climate and sustainability considerations need to be embedded into our post-16 framework.

Local skills improvement plans have been raised by many noble Lords; they must not just be driven by local employers but take account of government priorities and strategies, such as the industrial decarbonisation strategy, the energy White Paper, the nature strategy and the heating and building strategies. This Government appear to have quite a lot of strategies. With skills for nature-based solutions, ecosystem management, drainage and even tree planting, we will need to think of the future. A child starting school this summer will leave in 2035 and will move into labour markets that will be largely zero carbon. The Bill also needs to offer support to workers transitioning out of high-carbon sectors or intensive agriculture who already possess level 3 qualifications but will not be able to access the lifelong loan entitlement. That needs to be changed.

Along with many other noble Lords, I want to voice my comments about the mood music around higher and further education at the moment, which might well impact on this Bill and on post-16 education. I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Johnson, that there should not be a false conflict between further and higher education; they should work in collaboration and not compete for resources. Ensuring parity of esteem is important, but it should be by investing in further education, not by taking funds away from higher education and levelling down.

At times, the Government are almost hostile to higher education, with the result that courses are being judged on student outcomes defined partly by getting degree-level jobs, whatever they are, and earning appropriate incomes. It seems to be obligatory at this point to declare your education, so here I go: I have an MA in Classics from Edinburgh University, a highly relevant degree, but not exactly job orientated in some people’s views. For reasons best known to myself and a complete mystery to my mother, I took a job as a secretary for two years post graduation, which would have screwed up Edinburgh’s outcome measures, had they existed 50 years ago.

I believe that we need careful scrutiny of Clause 17 on quality assessment for higher education. Metrics of quality need to take account of contextual factors, if they are not to jeopardise widening access for the less advantaged. They must take account of how students define their success and the flexibility that they will need in the fast-changing job market.

Covid-19: Ethnic Minority Disparities

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, indeed, the department, among other departments, is regularly in touch with the devolved Administrations, because we want to share best practice on this. Obviously, DWP is a nationwide provision and there are more job coaches there, which we hope will enable those communities, particularly BME communities, to access work as quickly as possible if they have lost work now or lose work after furlough ends.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, several noble Lords have quite rightly highlighted deprivation, unemployment and poverty as causes of Covid spread and I will not say anything different, though ethnicity per se does not predispose to Covid. People of ethnic origin, particularly in south Asian communities, are six times more likely to have diabetes, a condition that does predispose people to more serious impacts of Covid. Ethnic communities are also more likely to live in overcrowded accommodation and multigenerational households and to be poor. It is really poverty that kills. Can the Minister say what wider economic and social policies, including education, income and housing, the Government will introduce to tackle the poverty gap that has got wider in the last 10 years of Conservative government?

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that the NHS has an obesity strategy and the pandemic has shone a light, helpfully, on how important that strategy is. I can comment only in relation to the role of education in this—we were on track and had seen an overall closing of the attainment gap over the last 10 years. We recognise that there has been a narrowing in the last couple of years, but we are focusing our catch-up recovery to ensure that children from disadvantaged backgrounds catch up as quickly as possible.

Covid-19: Schools

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I have been in touch over this period directly with the head of the Boarding Schools’ Association to talk about their specific issues. We will shortly be issuing guidance to them, particularly in relation to year 6 international boarders. At such a time as international travel resumes, we will of course expect them to abide by the guidance that is in place in relation to self-isolation or quarantine, depending on what is in force at that time. Obviously we will be advising them on what constitutes a household or isolation of a household for those purposes. The guidance will be out shortly.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

The Science and Technology Committee of your Lordships’ House heard yesterday in its evidence session from the science community that there is not yet sufficient scientific evidence about the transmission rate of COVID-19 by children, many of whom are asymptomatic, to adults, including teachers. The reliance that the Government are putting on the test, trace and isolate system means that it must be reliable, but it rather begs the question whether they are satisfied with the scientific advice that they are getting on the infectivity of children. And why is the R number not published regionally if the test, trace and isolate system is showing that action will have to happen regionally?

Trade Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Stevenson’s Amendment 28. The main objective of reducing tariffs on environmental goods in an accelerated manner is environmental, particularly the need to address climate change and the sustainable development goals, but an EGA also makes good economic sense. Among the benefits are reduced consumer prices for environmental goods. EGA tariff elimination can spur the uptake of energy-efficient goods, resulting in energy savings. I am sure the Minister will tell us that the EGA regulations at the WTO are not currently in a great place—or, indeed, in any place at all. We are told by those who espouse Brexit that we can and will show global leadership as a stand-alone nation. We would have been among those nations which support an EGA as part of the EU. Surely if we leave the EU, this is a good cause on which to start to show this global leadership role.

Trade Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad): House of Lords
Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

My Lords, both these amendments provide us with a useful opportunity for discussion on important areas of trade, but both are without a doubt, to my mind, without the Bill. If we approach them in this spirit I think we can accept them as a useful addition for the future. I support my noble friend Lord Lansley’s Amendment 5 and will concentrate upon it because there is always a lot of rhetoric about SMEs and the need to encourage and support them, particularly in this context of increasing and developing international trade and their trading opportunities, and especially in this brave new world that awaits us after Brexit. Therefore, to have a specific quota for procurement is a very good way of drawing attention to the needs of small businesses and to encourage them to come forward when the time comes. Because it is not just a question of legislation: with all trade, it is a question of getting people out and about in the countries where we hope that they will find trading opportunities.

When we talk about international trade, of course there is much more to it than that. There is the whole issue of language skills and specialised negotiating skills which, by their very nature, small and medium-sized businesses may not be able to cope with. They are not likely to have the specialised staff or even the budgets to deal with this. I think that for the future we can certainly build on this amendment and the intention behind it, but as I said at the outset, not in this Bill. I trust that my noble friend the Minister will be able to reassure us that these interventions are not wasted but will be of great use when we come to deal with individual trade Bills in the future.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 4 in the name of my noble friend. I declare an interest as president of the Woodland Trust and as president or vice-president of a range of environmental organisations.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, was absolutely right when he said that these would be the “continuity” four days. I will make that point shortly with regard to what we are trying to do with this amendment. It is important that we ensure that our joining of the GPA as an independent entity maintains all sorts of standards: employment and human rights equalities, SME targets, other government national priorities and, in particular, on the environment. I therefore support Amendment 4 to enable conditions to be applied to tenders for services.

I will say more about the importance of maintaining environmental standards when we come to the group starting with Amendment 8. However, on Amendment 4 I will simply say that it is a very different thing to operate as one of the EU 28. It was pretty easy to have high environmental ambition when we were sailing as a pack, as it were. It will be very different when we are negotiating as an isolated country, either with the World Trade Organization or in bilateral agreements. I therefore do not believe that the Bill can be just about continuity, because continuity is not an option; in the future we will be operating in a very different environment in all our trade arrangements. It is important to ensure that standards—in my case, particularly environmental standards—are reinforced in all the trade mechanisms we are putting in place as part of a Brexit mechanism.

I therefore very much support Amendment 4 with regard to our changed membership of the GPA and subsequent tenders and contracts, which are an important part of that wider trade system that we are now entering into—which is not an issue of continuity.

[Lord Livingston of Parkhead (Con)]

I echo the comments from my noble friends Lord Lansley and Lady Hooper, that of course the Bill, and in particular this part of it, is not about changing policy or procedure but about continuity. I think they are raising points to consider in future trade negotiations. On Amendment 5, it is important to recognise the more important part about SMEs rather than just SME procurement policy. I know that the Minister has done a lot of work in promoting SME trade around the world; the UK’s policy has been moving towards supporting SMEs, not just in UK procurement but around the world, taking them to see other Governments and incorporating them within the supply chains. The UK has already taken a lot of steps over a number of years. Indeed, in one of the negotiations the EU and the UK had on trade, we tried to incorporate an SME chapter to have more focus on understanding, across any business, that SMEs are important. It is important here, and it keeps on appearing as an issue.

It is fine for us to talk, as noble Lords have, about things we would like to see in future trade agreements with future countries in future ways. However—I know that the Minister will make the point again—we are replicating where we already are. It is right and appropriate to set up signposts for the future, and on SMEs, I am sure that the Minister will say how as a Government we have done a lot, and how we expect to do a lot more and be incorporated, not just within trade agreements but in trade support, and what we do in areas such as trade fairs and in leading many trade delegations. Indeed, a number of noble Lords do a great deal around the world to support UK SME trade, along with the trade department.

Trade Bill

Baroness Young of Old Scone Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 10. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, for his explanation. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, that we know from history that trade is good for Britain and for other countries, including developing countries. I am nervous about writing too much into the Bill, as I will explain.

Noble Lords will recall from Second Reading that I very much support the Bill. Whether we have a satisfactory agreement or, less welcome, a no-deal Brexit, we need to write existing trade agreements into UK law. My noble friend the Minister has explained that all the necessary measures have not been included in previous Brexit legislation. This House rightly tries to support the orderly conduct of government and we have a duty to do so, whatever our views on Brexit. That must include preparing our statute book, either for 29 March or a later date, following a delay to Article 50 or a transition period. It would be irresponsible not to make preparations. Indeed, a lot of these measures should already be agreed, with commencement dates to be slotted in later.

I tabled this probing amendment, which is in effect an alternative to Amendment 8, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, for two reasons. We should avoid lumbering the Bill with detailed requirements that could put in question some existing trade agreements, might encourage costly legal challenge to agreements drawing on the criteria, and might fetter our ability to negotiate sensibly with third countries, either as we move from being a member of the European Union to being a third country or during future trade negotiations.

I recognise from discussion today that new FTAs will be the subject of future legislation, so I oppose Amendment 8 overall, although my amendment derives from it. However, there is one aspect of it with which I have some sympathy: the provision that specifies that agreements should not restrict the Government’s ability to determine whether public services are carried out by the private or the public sector. The reason is that, as a Business Minister, I was peripherally involved in the EU negotiations on TTIP and we—both the UK and the EU Commission—made a mistake by not making it clear right at the beginning that the draft did not require us to limit the NHS’s ability to keep health administration and procurement in the public sector; nor, indeed, did we have it in mind to use the agreement for that purpose. The understandable emotion around the NHS and confusion on that point led to widespread opposition to TTIP and made it impossible to conclude anything ahead of the 2016 US election. I support outsourcing—I draw attention again to my entry in the register of interests—but some operations are better kept within the public sector. At any rate, the Government of the day should have choice in that matter.

I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me that we will not fall into the TTIP trap again, and will support my amendment or, if it is not appropriate, explain that she understands the thrust of the point I am trying to make.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the sentiments behind most of the amendments in the group, although perhaps not the exact wording. My focus is on environmental standards, their vital nature and why they are at risk under the current government proposals.

When we discussed Amendment 4, I made the point that it is much easier to be ambitious about standards if you are part of a pack, part of a group—which we were, we were one of the 28. When we are working on our own in a more isolated position negotiating bilateral agreements, even if they are allegedly rollover bilateral agreements, it is less easy to be robust and ambitious.

Environmental standards are vital in transitioning continuity agreements, but the other point, which has already been made, is that whatever we do in the continuity agreements is a harbinger, a signal, of how we want to handle negotiations on new deals, including deals with countries such as the USA and Brazil, where we know that big environmental issues will arise, particularly in agricultural trade deals. Agricultural standards impact not only on food standards and safety and animal welfare but on the environment. We do not want the chlorinated chicken debate replicated in individual trade deals for the future.

We need the Government to use the Bill to guarantee that all free trade agreements ensure, for example, that food imports meet the UK’s environmental, food safety and animal welfare regulatory standards. That should be the case in all negotiating mandates as well as in the subsequent agreements that flow from them. Import into the UK outside a free trade agreement is much trickier, but it is still vital that the Government set out very soon that they propose to use current World Trade Organization rules to maintain standards.

I will speak briefly to Amendment 15, the non-regression proposal from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. International trade agreements have the potential to undermine or weaken essential standards, as we know from the TTIP negotiations, which have already been mentioned. Non-regression commitments are common in existing trade agreements, and a meaningful commitment to non-regression provides a useful safety net. All international trade agreements implemented pursuant to the Trade Bill should incorporate that principle. Indeed, we need to go further. We need to widen their scope and strengthen their enforceability if they are to help deliver the Government’s promises to improve the state of the environment.

The Minister will say that we should be reassured that the Bill is only about continuity—I am rapidly coming to hate the word “continuity”—and that we are carrying across, not renegotiating conditions, but nothing in the Bill assures that. The Government have said tonight that only changes essential to ensuring continuity will be considered, but we know that when this was debated in the other place, the question was raised as to whether other Governments will want to agree deals with us without substantive changes. Indeed, Michel Barnier said a year ago that,

“partners around the world may have their own views”.

The message to the Government there is that it takes two to tango and although we do not want to renegotiate any conditions, there may be strong pressures to do so in the rollover process. Government needs to give a signal that we are absolutely clear about not negotiating any weakened standards.

The test of the Government’s mettle in all this will be how quickly we can get as many agreements as possible under our belt, both rollover and new, to demonstrate that they understand what Brexit is all about and are making real progress in trade. Although I hesitate to ascribe to the Government any dirty tactics, the reality is that, when push comes to shove, environmental standards will get the boot. We have had umpteen assurances from the Government that they are highly committed to maintaining all sorts of standards, including on the environment. The Command Paper, Preparing for our Future UK Trade Policy, said:

“The Government is fully committed to ensuring the maintenance of high standards of consumer, worker and environmental protection in trade agreements”.


Michael Gove, the Secretary of State, said:

“Let me try and state in letters that are as big or as bold or as clear as possible: we won’t be signing trade deals that mean British producers are undercut on animal welfare or environmental standards”.


The Prime Minister has made that point; indeed, today’s Statement reinforced how important environmental standards are and that they would not be compromised by the Brexit process. If we have all these assurances from government, I invite the Minister to say, “Since that’s what we really want to happen, we are going to enshrine it in this Bill”.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Young, I welcome the sentiment behind the amendments—in fact, I welcome their substance, but with one exception. I am uneasy about Amendment 25. I may have misunderstood it, but it seems to fall into a slightly different category—Amendment 15 is perhaps partly in that category, too.

I apologise for picking up one of the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, because she shames us all with her enthusiasm and hard work, but Amendment 25 seems slightly different because it would lay down a requirement on the Government to require something from the other participating Government in the agreement. Paragraph (b) requires that goods should,

“have been produced to standards that are comparable in effectiveness to those of the United Kingdom in protecting food safety, the environment and animal welfare”.

On the environment, India will be burning more coal next year than this year, and more the year after than next year. In China, coal will remain a very large part of the power mix. Would the amendment debar the Government from doing trade agreements with India or China in respect of goods produced using power? It would seem quite a wide provision to require the Government to require something from the other Government. I may have misunderstood it. I also recognise that it would only enable the Government to do these things; it would not require them to do them, yet I am not sure that the distinction indicates a real difference. If it was on the statute book, the Government might feel obliged.

Amendment 15 raises the question of non-regression. As I read it, and I may be wrong about this, too, it would place an obligation on the Government to require that the agreement incorporated the principle and that the principle applied to both sides—not just to us but to the other side. I may have misread that, but, if so, my point about China and India perhaps applies to it, too.

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[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

My Lords, I fully accept the Government’s assurances in relation to this group of amendments that there is absolutely no intention to lower standards and that the existing protections for consumers will be preserved. However, as has been shown in the discussions so far, there is a cause for concern. While the British Government intend to roll over the agreements without making any change, there is some uncertainty about whether the other parties with which we will be negotiating have the same point of view. The issues have been discussed sufficiently for me not to repeat what has been said, but I suggest that there are a couple of safeguards which have not been mentioned.

The global demand for British goods is based on our high standards. People buy British goods not because they are cheap but because of their high quality. Therefore, to disregard food standards would undermine any possibilities in that area. I understand that the EU withdrawal Act ensures that all existing EU environmental law will continue to operate in UK law. That again provides businesses and stakeholders with certainty.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. We have stressed throughout the debates about Brexit how important European law has been in driving UK environmental law. However, there are still whole swathes of environmental law in the UK which were actually invented by us. They are not yet safeguarded and could be undermined by trade deals.

[Baroness Hooper]

I bow to the superior knowledge of the noble Baroness in this area and I hope that my noble friend the Minister will be able to reply.

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[Baroness Fairhead]

I am seeking to reassure the House because what we are agreeing in the withdrawal agreement is that all those obligations that we are party to come over as a result of the EU withdrawal Act. We remain parties to exactly the same international commitments made before, during and after we leave the EU. Nothing in that changes. I am trying to convey that this is about continuity of the existing obligations. We are not changing them; they are therefore being brought across as they stand.

I turn now to Amendment 13, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and Amendment 14, tabled by my noble friend Lady McIntosh, which focus again on standards. Amendment 13 restricts the use of the Clause 2 power if it has the effect of lowering market standards for agricultural products below EU standards. Amendment 14 extends this to animal health, hygiene or welfare standards for agricultural products. I hope noble Lords will let me try to address any concerns over trade agreements leading to a change in standards for those agricultural products.

Our trade agreements must work not only for UK consumers, businesses and farmers but also for the environment. The global demand for British products is based on our high standards; people buy British not because it is cheaper but because of its high quality. To disregard standards would be to undermine the future of our farmers and of the British exporters. The Government have already announced a new environment (principles and governance) Bill to ensure environmental protections will not be weakened as we leave the EU. We have finished a consultation on a new body, which promises to hold the Government to account on the environment, and have published our 25-year environment plan which sets out our goals.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

There is one small flaw in the short term, which is that we will not have that Bill completed or the new agency established if we leave the EU at the end of March. How will the Government ensure that the duties and responsibilities which that organisation and that Bill would have delivered are not lost sight of during the period—which we do not know the length of—before they come in to being?

[Baroness Fairhead]

The noble Baroness raises an important point. That is why we are seeking an agreement and implementation period which will allow that timing. I can say that the Government will establish our own world-leading green governance body, the “Office for Environmental Protection”, or OEP, to champion and uphold environmental standards in England.

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[Baroness Byford]

Before the Minister responds, I would like to say that we do not have that Bill in front of us. What is being proposed is quite rightly reflected by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, but it is up to us to ensure that when that legislation comes those safeguards are built in. I will be one who strongly fights that corner, because it is no use having a body established if it cannot actually hold anyone to account at the right time. Forgive me for intervening on my noble friend the Minister, but I think we need to await the detail, which we do not have at the moment.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

That well illustrates the fact that the Minister and the Government should not pray in aid a body not yet agreed by Parliament or approved in terms of its powers and responsibilities, and which is not going to be in existence for some time. It is probably not very safe for the Government to assume that that body will necessarily go in the direction that they want it to.

[Baroness Fairhead]

I thank my noble friend Lady Byford for saying those words. This is a Bill, and the whole purpose of it going through will be that it gets scrutinised. These concerns and changes will be raised, and it will go through in the usual way. I am happy to write to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about where we are on the Bill but, like all legislation, when it is going through that is the right time to challenge it, and that Bill will be challenged in the same way as I would expect others to be.

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said last year:

“I have been very clear that Brexit will not lead to a lowering of our high food, animal welfare and environmental standards. This will remain at the heart of our approach as we negotiate both with the EU and with new trading partners around the world”.