Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Whitty

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, much has been said already. I agree with the main thrust of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, which urges the Government to set out a very clear case for the decarbonisation of the various transport sectors. I do not think that we are there yet, and I do not think that the industry feels that we are there yet. It is important, for the reasons that the noble Baroness has just spelled out, that the transport sector knows which way it is going.

I must partially apologise to and reassure the Committee, because some of my speech was intended for the previous group of amendments. As noble Lords were making such commendable progress this afternoon, I did not get here in time to intervene on the amendment on home heating—an issue where, again, some clarity of decision is needed. Home owners and landlords are now faced with decisions on how to replace their gas boilers: they know they need to get rid of their gas boilers, but quite what they are going to get to replace them with is unclear. Of course, people replace their cars, and even their lorries and buses, rather more frequently than their houses and boilers. It is important, therefore, for the transport industry that there is some clarity on the general direction of government policy for the different sectors of transport.

On this topic, we immediately run up against the issue of hydrogen. I am not quite as sceptical as some of my colleagues, but I am sceptical, because hydrogen has been seen as a “get out of jail” card for almost every sector on their decarbonisation trails. That is not only for heavy industry, to replace the very heavily carbon-fuelled industries such as steel, glass and so forth, with its knock-on effect on the construction industry, et cetera, but for parts of the transport sector and for home heating. It has been seen by some as the solution to the decarbonisation of heavy vehicles, shipping, the train system and even aviation. However, hydrogen is not capable of doing that without safety dangers; and, in any case, it is not capable of doing that because we do not yet have the technology for producing green hydrogen at scale. Therefore, it will come in, if at all, only much further down the line. However, waiting for hydrogen—whether in the form of hydrogen blend for home heating or hydrogen-based vehicles or batteries for the transport sector—is seen as an excuse for not taking other technologies more seriously and urgently than we have done.

The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, would require the Government to do that job for the transport sector. I think that they need to do that for other sectors as well, and that they should not exaggerate either the degree to which hydrogen is the solution or, in particular, the closeness of technological breakthroughs to provide genuinely green hydrogen. It is not going to happen in the kind of timescale that we are talking about. Therefore, the amendment has implications beyond transport, but transport itself needs a clear plan. I hope that the Minister will take up with his transport colleagues the need to work urgently, as the noble Baroness’s amendment urges, to ensure that the transport sector knows where it is going, even if nobody else does.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I am sorry to speak a second time—I am not sure whether I am allowed—but may I speak to Amendments 130A and 130B? In my excitement I forgot to speak to them. Those amendments in my name seek to address the carbon removals questions in the Bill.

Amendment 130A is to try to interrogate the Government’s amendments to the definitions of carbon removals, as stated in the Climate Change Act. My amendment would reinstate reference to forestry and other physical activities in the UK. I think this amendment is necessary because we do not want to see definitions used in the Climate Change Act, which are foundational to our understanding of what we need to do to tackle climate change domestically, to somehow allow vague processes such as the purchasing of offsets or some other financial instrument to be eligible for the net-zero accounting. I seek reassurances on that. I also seek reassurances that we acknowledge that forestry and land use need to be referenced alongside mechanical sinks to keep the system holistic and inclusive. So I am probing on those two questions: forestry and land use, and making sure we are talking about physical activity and not financial chicanery or accounting trickery.

I feel quite passionate about Amendment 130B. I am sure the UK will emerge as a world leader in this regard. If we are to become the centre of a market or set of policies that are economy-wide in decarbonising our system, we will have to get to grips with the MRV—the monitoring, reporting and verification of carbon removals—to get to a net-zero position. It is hugely important. When you burn a tonne of fossil fuel the impacts are certain and very low in error bars, but when it comes to the biospheric removal of carbon in particular, there are huge uncertainties and an absolute paucity of data. It really has not been looked at comprehensively enough, especially now that large sums of money may be resting on this approach to reaching net zero.

I urge the Minister and the department to really assess what the UK could do to set some gold-standard regulations regarding carbon removals. Let us start the debate with this Bill, pursue it and continue with it. Given that we are at the forefront of reaching these challenging carbon budgets that we have set ourselves, I have no doubt that carbon removals will have a role to play. But let us do it in a world-class way and not use it as a weasel-word excuse for allowing fossil fuels to continue, without the certainty that those removals are genuine, additional and permanent and can offset the almost permanent damage that we know occurs from the release of fossil fuels. It is hugely important that we do this. I tabled this as an opportunity to spark a debate, and I hope we will come back and consider it in more detail. The UK has a great potential role to play in this area.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Whitty

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (Lab)]

My Lords, thank you for returning to Committee. Amendment 12 in Clause 5 relates to the Secretary of State’s abilities to give directions to the Oil and Gas Authority. Again, I fear that we are now retreading familiar territory in our discussion of the Bill and some of the concerns that we have with it. The amendments in this group are probing and designed to give the Minister an opportunity to respond on how he considers that these powers might be used by the Secretary of State. We revisit the two issues that we talked about earlier today, which are that the Oil and Gas Authority should have explicit mention of carbon storage and transportation in its objectives and in the matters to which it has regard. For consistency’s sake, we therefore believe that the Secretary of State should also have those powers.

The purpose of these amendments, particularly Amendments 12 and 14, which are in my name, is to ask the Minister whether he could give us a little more information about the circumstances under which he envisages the Secretary of State needing to use these powers. Perhaps he could also give us an example of what kind of direction he imagines the Secretary of State might be giving the Oil and Gas Authority in relation to its functions under these powers. There is clearly not much in the public domain to help me get a handle on the thinking behind Clause 5, so it really would be an illuminating contribution from the Minister if he were able to give us some examples of the circumstances, particularly the exceptional circumstances referred to in the Bill, and the examples of direction.

We had a discussion prior to the break about the primary purposes of the OGA. I remain convinced that there is a clean and very succinct way of doing this, which is to refer to the Oil and Gas Authority’s primary objectives and to include within them explicit reference to activities that go beyond maximising economic recovery, as it is perhaps formally or informally understood. At the moment, it is interpreted as meaning that we will extract the maximum volume of hydrocarbons from our natural resources which fall within our territorial waters offshore, and indeed onshore. But it may be that that definition of MER, while it still of course has cross-party support, needs to be revisited and revised.

In the previous discussion, we saw reference to new matters to which the OGA should have regard being added to Clause 4. The Minister’s response in that debate was that there is no need to be explicit about these matters and that climate change is taken care of elsewhere, as indeed is the need to decarbonise and CCS. But if that logic were to apply, it is the case that one of the matters stated in Clause 4 is the need to have regard to a secure supply of energy, so if we are being true to ourselves and saying that we should have a narrow focus for the OGA and do not need to reiterate these things, there is no need for any reference to security of supply in that part of the Bill either. However, I do not think that is correct. Indeed it was helpful that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who is no longer in his place, made reference to the fact that to avoid doubt it is always better to be explicit about these things, for fear that people with slight imagination —he used that phrase but perhaps it should be “lacking in imagination”—might mean that there is a narrow interpretation of what the OGA is created to do and what is within its powers and remit.

That is a very lengthy way of saying that we look forward to hearing more from the Minister on Clause 5, which is clearly an important part of the Bill. However, as I read it, I am left wondering what these exceptional circumstances are and what these directions could look like. I look forward to hearing from the Minister in his response. I beg to move.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this group, but I also want to apologise to the Committee because, due to my attendance at my Select Committee, I was unable to be here for the previous debate, during which, as my noble friend said, the case was made for ensuring that the OGA—while it may well have principal objectives—has to operate in the context of wider energy policies. Issues of climate change, energy security and affordability are relevant to how the OGA fulfils its main functions. Indeed, if its main function is in terms of maximum economic recovery, what happens on those other dimensions of energy policy affects the actual economics in MER. Therefore, it is important that the OGA, as set out in the earlier clauses, has some regard to those broader objectives of energy policy. It is also important that the Secretary of State can intervene in those areas.

Amendment 13 would allow the Secretary of State to give directions where it would be necessary to meet the terms of the Climate Change Act and the budgets promulgated under that Act. Amendment 15 relates to the Committee’s discussion before the break about carbon capture and storage, so that directions could relate explicitly to the storage of gas and oil and the storage of carbon dioxide as part of a carbon capture and storage scheme. The amendments previously discussed relating to Clause 4 need to be complemented with the ability of the Secretary of State to intervene on those same subjects. That is what these amendments would do.

Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Whitty

Monday 10th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, those who oppose these amendments are missing the point. The amendments may well be in the wrong place; they may well be too wide. I did not intervene in the previous debate because I thought that it was becoming far too polarised. Public opinion on the issue of fracking is polarised, but public opinion is not polarised in relation to the protection of our national parks and our areas of outstanding natural beauty. Unless the Government in some way recognise within the overall approach to fracking that there are certain sites which have to be protected—whatever provision exists elsewhere in terms of general planning law and so forth—the outcry against fracking will grow rather than be reduced.

The Government should at least have the grace to recognise that that is a reality. In terms of public acceptability of fracking, protection of our protected areas is an important element which needs to be in the regulations and in the Bill. Whether the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness are technically in the right place or not, the politics and the PR for fracking need to make that point. If they do not, the 25% of people who fundamentally oppose fracking will grow in number. The Government have the opportunity to ensure that that does not happen. I hope that, if not now then in the process of this Bill through the Commons, the Government will put that right.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to this debate, which has been another interesting exchange of views on how best to get the fracking industry off on the right foot and to minimise the degree of public opposition that might arise.

I recently visited the Lake District, which is one of my favourite parts of the country. I visited a mining museum and, in doing so, I realised that we often see such parts of the country as having a great value now in terms of tourism, wildlife and appreciation of scenic beauty, but that they have in previous times been quite diversely economically active and been able to accommodate different activities within the boundaries of the parks as we know them today. Therefore, I for one am not of the opinion that these special places need to be preserved in aspic but that it is about achieving the right level of balance.

That said, it is absolutely clear that, when you have a Government who say that they are all out for fracking and that it will be the silver bullet that solves all our energy needs, and slightly overhype it, you can see why people get nervous that all due consideration and care are not being taken. I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s responses to the two amendments. The second of them, Amendment 115, points to something of an inconsistency, with planning guidance having been issued for national parks and AONBs but not for other nationally significant sites. Such sites, because they tend to be smaller, more fragmented and under considerable pressure from a wide range of economic activities already, arguably deserve even greater levels of protection than those larger national parks and AONBs, which I think can accommodate economic activity within them and generate jobs and economic benefits. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Renewables Obligation Closure Order 2014

Debate between Baroness Worthington and Lord Whitty

Thursday 24th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

I have two points on which the noble Baroness may wish to write to me. I mentioned in the previous debate the apparent intention of the department to end ROs on larger solar projects over 5 megawatts from April next year, which is well before anything else happens. I wonder whether the department are proceeding with that—it is a uniquely early finish of RO cover—for projects which may come on, or be in the process of coming on, in the period between now and 2017.

Secondly—I may have to declare a past interest—there is an obscure footnote to this which relates to the need to consult the National Consumer Council, of which I was formerly chair. The National Consumer Council was abolished but its powers and interest in the energy dimension have transferred to Citizens Advice. I hope that the department can give a general assurance that Citizens Advice will be consulted in the same way as Consumer Focus, and before that Energywatch, was consulted on all matters of energy policy which relate to consumer outcomes.

[Baroness Worthington (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sad to see the end of the renewables obligation. It is tempting to say that everything was dysfunctional, that nothing was working and was not it awful. However, we should look at what we have achieved: at how much renewables capacity we now have in the UK and at how quickly and efficiently it has been deployed. This was largely achieved because of the RO, which replaced the NFFO scheme.

It was a highly innovative scheme which was introduced to allow the market to choose the projects it thought it should bring forward. It was obliged, of course, to meet targets set by Government but, by and large, it chose what to do. There were merits in that because it created an obligation. As we know, faced with having to do something or not do something, most people would choose the latter, stick with what they know and remain encumbered with technology that they understand and assets that they can continue to sweat. One of the benefits of the RO was that it did not allow that to happen. The ways in which penalties were repaid back to your competitors encouraged you to build new bits of kit, and to do so under a market-driven system. Over time, of course, it changed to ensure that we were not paying too much and that consumers were getting a good deal.

Over the years that we have been debating EMR, I can remember someone saying to me—I do not know whether or not it is true—that when EDF first approached government and said, “We want to build a new nuclear power station”, its first suggestion was, “Simply give us a ROC band. We can do it. We can build you Hinkley if you turn it into a low-carbon obligation and allow nuclear to be eligible”. Would it not have been a lot simpler if we had just said “Yes”? We did not, but we have come up with a new system, and we are where we are. However, I want to put on record that RO was successful; it brought forward a lot of capacity and brought diverse players into the market. We saw a great diversification of the number of companies that took part in the electricity market because of the RO. I, for one, am slightly nervous that we are abandoning what was a functioning system and embarking on a new, glorious path. I hope that the CFD will be as successful.

However, one suggestion is that it would be good for the department—perhaps this talks to my noble friend Lord Whitty’s point about communicating with the public in ways that it understands—if we could have an assessment of the RO, how much capacity was brought on, the diversity of that capacity and of the investors in that capacity. That would give us a good baseline from which to measure the success of the CFDs. We want CFDs to be more successful—we want them to bring on more capacity from a more diverse range of participants. Therefore, although it is not strictly speaking part of this regulation, and nothing in there requires it, it would be good for the department to undertake to provide us with a summary and a review of the effectiveness of the RO. From there it could move on to use those parameters of diversity and deployment against the CFDs, so that we can measure how successful they are.

My noble friend Lord Whitty raised an important point, that once the RO closes and the CFDs move on, there is a danger that we have mid-range technologies which fall into a sort of valley of death between FITs and the new CFD arrangements. I echo his question. We want to clarify that we will not see technologies that are currently receiving support either through FITs or the RO being lost in translation towards the CFDs. However, other than that, I thank the noble Baroness for her presentation.