Baroness Worthington
Main Page: Baroness Worthington (Crossbench - Life peer)Energy Bill
Baroness Worthington Excerpts
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
My Lords, I support my noble friend on this issue. As he was speaking, I was thinking that we have a model for what he is talking about. If you go along Oxford Street or the main street of pretty well any town there is at least one telecoms shop, where you can sign up to get a new phone. The last shops to close seem to be the mobile phone shops. Yet this is a far more pressing requirement than just a mobile phone.
One of the consequences of privatisation has been the demise of the old electricity and gas showrooms, in which various pieces of equipment, from washing machines to cookers to refrigerators, were on sale. Unfortunately, of course, they have now been superseded by the likes of Currys and tend to be in shopping areas outside the high street. With regard to the level of public concern about electricity and gas prices, and the confusion over the effectiveness of one piece of equipment against another, it is fair to say that if you go to some of the high street shops you will get very good, helpful assistance but that tends to be in the minority. Due to the churn of staff in the retail trade, people are there for relatively short periods and do not have the experience that was built up in the old showrooms.
The telephone companies and the makers of telecoms equipment seem to be able to provide a service for the public which the big six energy companies seem incapable of doing. They have retreated from the high street. The cost of property on the high street is not very high these days and one would imagine that it would not cost an awful lot to get people in there, but of course they would say that that was too much and that if people were better informed they would probably be looking for better tariffs than the ones that they get and we would be back talking about mis-selling and the like.
This is something that the Government ought to put their mind to and I wait with interest to hear what the Minister has to say. As my noble friend said, it is part of the big society, part of a well informed consumer society, and one would have thought that it might be an attractive proposition for some of the big companies to look at in terms of looking after their customers.
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, the amendment in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, raises a really interesting issue, and I commend them for tabling it. It brings this Bill into contact with people, consumers and citizens.
When I read about the amendment, I thought back to my childhood, where in a medium-sized town in south Wales, there was the South Wales Electricity Board showroom, right in the centre among all the shops. You could get advice about your bills and you could speak to people, but it also had a showroom for the sale of electrical goods. Of course, in those days—and I am sure this started a long time before—the energy companies had a great interest in making sure that every family had a washing machine, a fridge-freezer and an electric cooker because it would boost the sale of their product. They were ensuring that we were all making the most of all the labour-saving devices that were coming forward in order to boost the sale of the units of electricity that they generated. It probably made very good business sense. However, times have changed and over the years energy companies have receded into the background. Now they are engaged mainly in a massive database management exercise, in which they try to keep interaction with the consumer to a bare minimum. I have been told that, from a supply company’s point of view, every time someone rings up it is money off the bottom line and it does not like it. Companies invest in call centres, which have become a modern job-creation exercise here and overseas. We can talk to people only on the phone. There is very little interaction on the high street.
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Teverson and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for their amendments concerning consumer access to information. I start by saying to my noble friend and to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, that I take the issues around data protection and data security very seriously. I hope that in responding to both noble Lords I will be able to reassure them of the measures we have in place. However, I will address that at the end.
Amendment 51ZDA relates to the ownership of, and access to, the energy consumption data that will be stored by smart meters. I am grateful to my noble friend for the opportunity to explain the important regulatory changes on smart metering data access and privacy that have came into effect since last month. The smart meter data access framework is based on the principle that consumers should have a choice about how their data are used and by whom. The first step is that energy consumption data will be stored by smart meters themselves, in people’s homes. The meters will be capable of storing at least 24 months-worth of historic data. The second step is that consumers will have control and choice over who can access the data held on those smart meters.
Consumers will be able to access their data directly from the meter in their home. Energy suppliers are required to ensure that consumers are able to do this. As part of their smart meter installation, all domestic consumers will be offered an in-home display. This will connect them directly to their smart meter and show them how much energy they are using, in real time and historically, and what it is costing them. We expect other innovative products to be developed that will connect directly to the smart meter, which consumers will be able to purchase on the high street.
Consumers can also choose to give their energy supplier, or anyone else offering them an attractive product or service, remote access to their data. This enables companies to offer services to consumers such as regular home energy reports. The only exception, where consumers do not have a choice, is that the meters will provide energy suppliers with the data required for billing or other regulated duties. One of the key benefits of smart metering for consumers is the end of estimated billing. This data access framework, embedding the principles of consumer choice and control, has been implemented through changes to energy suppliers’ licences and will be enforced by Ofgem.
Before I turn to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I will respond to two points. Both noble Lords asked about data control and engagement. While I have given noble Lords a broad overview, we also have in place a central consumer delivery body that would be able to reach out and reassure consumers with an independent voice on how their data are being kept. We have come to create the mechanism through which the data are stored with advice from the National Technical Authority for Information Assurance, which is linked to the Government’s GCHQ; I hate acronyms. We therefore know that we have worked with a huge amount of expertise on national data security. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, will welcome the appointment of his colleague the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, as the chairman of the central delivery body.
The other mechanism, which I have just mentioned, is the data and communications company. This will effectively be the mechanism through which all information will go. It has security on the front and back ends. The information that will be utilised from consumers’ homes cannot be accessed unless it has been accredited to the suppliers who have signed up through their licence conditions to the utilisation of smart meters. There is a huge amount of information out there that I urge noble Lords to access. If noble Lords would like me to, I am more than happy to ensure that they receive the updated frameworks and codes of practice that we are putting out there to ensure that there is absolute privacy for and security on data for consumers. We have worked hard to ensure that we satisfy the sort of concerns and fears that noble Lords are raising.
I now turn to Amendment 51AA of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I, like the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, support the sentiment behind the amendment concerning the provision of energy information to consumers. The first step to saving energy is to receive reliable, quality advice about energy efficiency. Generic advice from a high street shop will only get you to a certain stage of information availability. The best approach is to get personalised advice that is tailored to your own home. This is the only way to ensure that recommendations and savings estimates are truly meaningful for the consumer. The Green Deal assessment does exactly that.
The Green Deal assessment provides detailed advice about the range of options which might be suitable for a particular property, including insulation and other efficiency measures, renewable heating systems and options for generating low-carbon electricity, like solar panels. Householders also receive advice on how they use energy through an occupancy assessment. It is still early days, but awareness of the scheme has grown rapidly. I am pleased to say that nearly 40,000 Green Deal assessments had been completed by mid-June, with thousands happening every month. Physical demonstrations are always a highly effective way to raise consumer awareness of the measures available. That is why we are supporting the development of a national “open homes” network to make it easy for people to see how homes can be improved by energy-saving retrofits.
Baroness Worthington
We have seen the statistics on the Green Deal. If I am right, you have to pay for those assessments. That seems very different to somebody being able to walk in off the high street to receive advice. Would the noble Baroness care to comment on that?
If, in a year’s time, the numbers of actual, completed, signed-up Green Deal participants are still very low—and they have been quite low, in terms of completing the whole process—would the Government consider that perhaps a new approach is needed where a lower level of advice is available without any cost?
Baroness Verma
My Lords, first, we have to recognise that the Green Deal is still in its early stages. Given that, the numbers of assessments received and accepted are quite high. The noble Baroness does not get the point that the Green Deal assesses the individual’s needs and tailors advice to that individual’s home, whereas getting generic advice would be exactly that: generic. Everybody’s homes and requirements are different. The way the assessments are carried out is tailored to those individual needs and engages on a one-to-one basis—if the noble Baroness would allow me to finish—the needs of those consumers and their households. You cannot get that from going to a one-stop shop for that advice. This is tailored advice and it is too early to say whether the Green Deal measures are reaching out and people are engaging with them. Given the number of assessments that we have delivered, people are engaging with them. We must not be pessimistic about the numbers. I welcome the fact that there has been quite a surge in people wanting to access them.
Baroness Worthington
Unfortunately, the noble Baroness missed my point. Obviously, everybody’s body and lifestyle are different but we go to a doctor’s surgery without cost to receive advice from an expert. Does she not accept that if you place the barrier of an up-front payment fewer people will receive advice? Is there not a role for very low-level but expert advice that can be tailored? Of course, people can communicate their circumstances. They are not incapable of speech. That is exactly what you do when you visit a doctor.
Baroness Verma
It is up to suppliers whether they charge: they may or may not. Government cannot dictate that to suppliers. It is in the interest of suppliers to offer the best possible deal out there, knowing that they compete for that work. We need to leave it to the people offering the Green Deals as to whether they charge, do not charge or give the costs back if they have a Green Deal accepted.
The energy-saving advice service will ensure that both consumers and businesses have access to impartial advice on the range of measures and services available to them. The Government are also currently operating a cashback scheme to consumers as further encouragement to install energy efficiency measures. The steps we are taking in the area of energy efficiency form part of a whole coherent strategy. As noble Lords mentioned, alongside the Green Deal we are also rolling out smart meters. The introduction of smart meters will provide consumers with real-time information on their energy consumption to help them control their energy use. As part of the smart meter installation visit, suppliers must also provide energy efficiency advice.
I will also say a few words on energy labelling and product standards. Already, measures like the ECO design and the energy labelling directive have played a key role in enhancing energy efficiency, securing above-average savings from electrical appliances. The UK continues to work with partners in Europe and is currently pushing the European Commission to increase the level of ambition on this issue. We are not just doing it nationally here but trying to encourage our partners in Europe to do the same. I hope my noble friend Lord Teverson and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, see that the Government are taking every step possible to reassure and inform consumers. On that basis, I hope my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Worthington
My Lords, I have proposed that this clause should not stand part, partly because this is a very odd part of the Bill. I read it and then read it again. Then I thought that I would go to the Explanatory Notes as they would help explain what it is all about. However, the Explanatory Notes simply repeated what was written in the clauses in the same language but with the numbers taken out. So that was absolutely hopeless. I then turned to the debate in the Commons when this clause was introduced. I was seeking some sense of why this was needed, how it was going to operate and what it was for. My colleagues in the other place pressed the Minister quite hard but, I am sad to say, I am still a little confused as to why this power is being taken.
It did not appear in the draft Bill, so it was not subject to any pre-legislative scrutiny. There is very little background information on it and there seems to have been no consultation. It introduces quite extraordinarily wide-ranging powers with almost no definitions at all. It allows the Treasury and the Government to raise money, but the amounts that are allowed to be raised do not even need to pass before Parliament; they can simply be determined by the direction of the Secretary of State. It is quite a profound, if small, piece of legislation. I was curious to know what it was for and I still am. Perhaps the noble Lord can provide us with his account. Is the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, going to tell me that there is lots of background information that I have not read?
Baroness Worthington
In the other place, the Minister did try to give some explanation as to what these fees for energy resilience might be. My colleagues in the other place did press him quite hard, because one reading could see it as a way to discourage strike action in those sectors that deliver fuel or are connected with the energy sector. We were pleased to receive quite emphatic reassurances that these fees would not be applied to unions that sought to take strike action.
What seemed to emerge was that the fees are going to be levied on business in response to extreme events that it was almost impossible to predict. That could be anything but some examples were given. The Government might need to step in and provide personnel to companies in the event of an outbreak of a flu pandemic and would want to recover the cost in fees. Then there was the potential for equipment or vehicles that the Government own to be deployed in the event of extreme weather or of a clean-up. Then there are the unspecified assets that might need to be provided in the short term to business. Really, this is the Treasury seeking a power to regain costs for that. What have we come to? Is the government budget so tight that we are introducing powers to claw back money for disaster situations? In reality, if a disaster strikes you want the Government to be able to respond. You do not want there to be any quibbling about costs being passed on or who will pay for what. Why do we—and companies—pay taxes? The Government are there to provide a service in the event of national security issues.
Maybe I am wrong and there are plenty of precedents for the Treasury introducing specific powers to recover money for specific unintended events. If there are, I stand corrected. However, my reading of this is that it is an extraordinarily broad power with almost no definition and very little accountability. For that reason, it does not have a place in this Bill. Obviously, as we go forward we know that there will be an increase in natural disasters that could potentially interrupt energy supply. In fact, we have quite a resilient system for dealing with that. The power companies and National Grid are on the front line. Their licence requirements mean that they have to reconnect customers as soon as they can. When the large storms hit the Isle of Arran, SSE men in vans were out there fixing that problem. The Government were not involved. I suspect that the Government do not have the skills to address these issues.
It strikes me that this must be about military personnel. It can only be about military deployment because the department certainly does not have skilled engineers who can go and fix transmission lines. That is all done in the private sector. If it is about concerns about the military and the budget, this is quite a strange precedent to set, that there will somehow be fees applied to businesses. Are those fees voluntary or mandatory? How will they work? Does a company have to pay? As I said, when will all this be negotiated? If there is a natural disaster I would hope that we got on with fixing the problem and that the Government would be sufficiently robust and well resourced to do that, not that we would be quibbling about collecting these fees.
As I said, we are going into a world where there are likely to be more natural disasters. We should not shy away from that, but the Treasury would better spend its time getting to grips with climate change rather than preventing us from tackling it and introducing apparently innocuous but quite powerful bits of legislation that enable it to collect costs. It should be thinking about how it can act to stop the excessive increase of natural disasters and it should start taking climate change seriously.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I apologise for appearing to interrupt the noble Baroness in mid-flow. I just have one question. I had the same problem as the noble Baroness did. I thought, “Why has this clause stand part question been put down and what does the clause say?”. I turned up the Ofgem consultation letter published on the same day as its recent capacity assessment report, which has of course shown that the margins will, by the middle of this decade, become very much smaller. It goes on making hopeful remarks that perhaps there will not be interruptions but an increasing number of people think that there might be. The letter consults on additional balancing measures for the grid. It proposes two of them. I will not go into this in great detail at this hour of the night—we are due to rise in two minutes—but does that have anything to do with this clause? There is nothing in the letter about fees so there may be no connection, but it proposes new methods to achieve resilience to avoid power cuts. It seemed that there might be a connection. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, seems not to think so. We will listen to my noble friend replying in due course.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
We do not anticipate that the companies could recoup in those circumstances.
Baroness Worthington
It seems to me that we have got to the bottom of this. It is a very narrow thing that is needed, yet the Government have created an incredibly enabling piece of legislation with no scrutiny. It is poor legislative drafting to have taken such a wide-ranging power. The Minister says that it will not apply to electricity, or will be used only in certain circumstances—which boils down to the Army learning how to drive fuel tankers. That is very narrow, but this is not a narrow provision. It almost sounds as if one could interpret this as the Government going into the energy supply business. It is that broad. I am glad and encouraged that we are not. I am also reassured to hear that this is discretionary, although how that would play out I am not sure. Either you deploy or you do not deploy.
Is the Minister saying that we would not deploy unless the company agreed to pay? That would be a reduction in the security of the country. The company might say, “No, we’re not paying for that”. Who in their right mind would say yes? If you are an oil company, you will not have factored into your bottom line unexpected payments to the Government for people to drive your tankers. The money has to be recouped from somewhere, and a company would be perfectly within its rights to refuse to pay. In that case, the Government will have to deploy their personnel anyway, or risk an interruption in our fuel supply. This needs to be narrowed in its application. It needs more definition in law.
I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Roper, who pointed to the delegated powers recommendation that subsection (3)(b) does not deserve to be here. It is far too wide-ranging. The whole thing is ill conceived. As I pointed out, in a disaster situation the last thing you want to be doing is negotiating around who is paying who. We have a Government. We pay taxes for a reason. That is what we expect of government. This is penny-pinching from the Treasury and it does not deserve to be in the Bill.