Children in Gaza

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, there is plenty of time. We will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, followed by the noble Lord, Lord Green.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Chief Whip. UNICEF has said today that 600,000 displaced children are in Rafah in Gaza. That is comparable to the entire under-12 population of Scotland being displaced to one postcode area. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that for any belligerent in a conflict to advise children and civilians to relocate, on the pretext of their safety, to an area where there is no shelter, water or medicine, and where there are no security guarantees, is a war crime?

Rwanda Asylum Partnership

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think the House wants to hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Government Chief Whip. I visited the reception centre in Kigali in June, and I asked about the legal basis of that centre, which is on a private contract on an annual basis that will run out in April. I saw no facilities for people who will be vulnerable or at suicide risk, and I have asked repeatedly in this House about the legal underpinning of the MoU. This House’s International Agreements Committee has today reported to say that it is unacceptable for measures such as this to be under an MoU rather than being under a treaty. Will the Government think again and allow Parliament to vote on, scrutinise and ratify this agreement if they believe that it is sound?

UK-Rwanda Asylum Partnership Arrangement

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Monday 25th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend is right on two counts. First, the provision is in long-standing legislation dating from 1999, 2002 and 2004. Under the Bill, the certification process would not be needed, so essentially the policy could proceed with or without the legislation.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has said that some people will find ways and means to make this agreement justiciable. Under our dual system in our constitution, any agreement made by government has to be underpinned by domestic legislation. If this is to be a binding agreement, as the Minister said at the Dispatch Box, it will require ratification by Parliament. How will this agreement be ratified?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is a memorandum of understanding, as opposed to a treaty, which has been the subject of debate today.

Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 2021

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Thursday 25th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I admire the Minister’s stamina over this last day and a half.

I declare an interest in that I support peacebuilding charities active in the region, and I will touch on one of those areas in a while. I also state categorically that we need our country and our people safe, here at home or when they travel abroad. We also have a duty to work closely with our allies so that we have mutual security. Threats can be domestic or can originate at source in areas of tension where there is either failed governance or a lack of security. We therefore accept that it is the first duty of government to continuously review the list of proscribed organisations under Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

I, too, noted that the Home Secretary chose to make a statement to the Heritage Foundation in America rather than the House of Commons in Britain about this specific measure. I do not think the Minister here would have done that; we take our responsibilities very seriously as far as updating Parliament is concerned. Ultimately, Parliament approves these measures and has an opportunity to scrutinise and consider them carefully.

Hamas’s military operations are founded on unacceptable premises and have a litany of innocent victims, including the awful recent violence that appalled us all, so eloquently described by President Herzog, who addressed many Members here in the Chamber today through the all-party group. He spoke to us very clearly on this issue on Monday, and I was very pleased to attend.

Hamas’s activities are contemptible and I condemn them. It is, as the Minister said, a de facto Administration. We have maintained the no-contact element and worked with our allies to secure that support for people in Gaza does not contradict any of the international approach by other allies who have proscribed both elements of the political and military wing together, which is different from our approach.

I respect also that it is an executive function to prepare proposals for proscription, supported, as has been said, by the proscription review group. But, given that this is the proscription of a political arm of an organisation, on the basis that it now cannot be distinguished from its military arm, it is a fair question to ask about the differences between today and June 2020, when the then Minister, Mr Brokenshire, answered a Parliamentary Question by saying:

“The political wing of Hamas is not proscribed as it is considered that there is a clear distinction between Hamas’s military and political wings”.


I thank the Minister today, as her speech had greater content as was given in the House of Commons. She outlined in clearer detail the view now taken with regard to the activities and structure of the political wing of Hamas, and I am grateful for that. However, I wanted to ask a question linked to what was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, with regard to whether there will be consequences of this action, and perhaps unintended consequences.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, who is highly respected in this House for his former role and his current contributions, could not be here today, but we spoke in advance of this debate. Both of us have a shared interest in the peace-building work being carried out by British charities and organisations, which is complementary to humanitarian assistance. In many respects, if we are to see the humanitarian assistance be effective, there will be dialogue and movement away from violence to peace.

All who are present here are fully aware of the relationships between Hamas and Fatah; we are fully aware of the politics within the Palestinian structures, so we need not debate that. Where the UK has played a good part is where we have shared our experiences, through highly professional peace-building and dialogue bodies, of moving away from the Armalite and the ballot box approach. That is what Hamas has tried to do, but the Government believe they have failed to keep the distinction between the ballot box approach and the Armalite. If we are to move away from that, as we have seen movement away from it in the UK, I believe that the work of British bodies involved in peace-building and dialogue should continue.

In his report The Terrorism Acts in 2018, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, Jonathan Hall QC recommended that

“the Home Secretary should invite the Attorney General to consider the issue of prosecutorial guidance on overseas aid agencies and proscribed groups”.

The Government responded positively to that, and the Home Office subsequently issued an information note for operating within counterterrorism legislation. However, that information note does not necessarily provide legal reassurance. The Minister in the House of Commons indicated that those bodies working in this area should seek legal advice. However, the recommendation from the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation looked at prosecutorial guidelines to complement the positive work of the Home Office in the information note.

I wanted to ask the Minister, once she has rested—if she ever gets time to rest, which is probably unlikely—whether she would meet me, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and any other interested colleagues working in this area to explore ways in which this measure, which is designed to keep people safe, will also not inhibit UK-based organisations that are doing good work to try to make sure that the people in the region are also safe in the long term.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Purvis of Tweed. I am really pleased to see that we have a cross-party commitment to this issue, particularly to what is quite a long-standing wish by some to see this group proscribed.

I think both noble Lords would like me to reiterate the implications for the peace process and aid getting to certain areas. I said, and I reiterate, that this is not a commentary on the ongoing tensions in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and the action we are taking is not a departure from the Government’s long-standing position on the Middle East peace process. We absolutely support a negotiated settlement leading to a safe and secure Israel alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state. This is a decision based on our assessment that Hamas in its entirety is concerned in terrorism, as noble Lords have pointed out, and that this is a proportionate action to take.

On humanitarian assistance, it goes without saying that the Government do not provide any assistance to Hamas or the government structure in Gaza, which is made up of Hamas members, but this proscription will not prevent aid reaching civilians in need. I think that is a perfectly reasonable question to ask and demand to make. In Gaza, we have strong controls in place to monitor spending and to make sure that aid sent into the region reaches the intended beneficiaries. Again, this action is aimed squarely at a terrorist group.

I am very happy to meet the noble Lords, Lord Purvis of Tweed and Lord Anderson, to discuss the issues they mentioned.

On the timing of the order, it was laid before the Home Secretary delivered her speech. I communicated with the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in the way I usually do, which is to write to him just prior to any proscription debate in this House. I beg to move.

Small Boats Incident in the Channel

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Thursday 25th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am very happy to acknowledge that institution. I acknowledge and praise everyone who saves lives at sea. It is a very important principle to us as UK citizens that the first job of anyone at sea is to save lives at sea.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I declare an interest, in that I am supporting an anti-human trafficking project that is supported by the Government. I will be travelling before Christmas into an affected area. I have been extensively in Sudan and in the Sahel. The Minister is absolutely right: she leads a committed team in the Home Office that is looking to address this issue at the source. She was also right, in response to my noble friend Lady Hamwee, about the international nature of trafficking and the distinct but connected crime of smuggling. However, they are not extraterritorial offences, and therefore the very nature of those offences means that it is incredibly difficult to bring forward prosecutions on an international scale. I believe that human trafficking should be a crime against humanity. Will the Minister examine this area for its extraterritorial dimension because, unless we have the ability to prosecute those networks across many countries, we will not tackle those heinous offences that she so eloquently outlined?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am very grateful for the noble Lord’s intervention because he is absolutely right. I cannot go into a lot of detail about extraterritoriality, but I praise the NCA for its work both nationally and internationally, with Governments across the world to try to cut this off upstream before it gets to our shores.

UK–EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement: Foreign Workers

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Well, I think I explained our obligations to the noble Lord, Lord Hendy. We continue to place great value on the role of the Council of Europe in advancing work on human rights, democracy and the rule of law across Europe. It has been and will continue to be important to the UK’s human rights and foreign policy agenda.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the new Justice Secretary is on record for calling the Council of Europe’s convention on human rights “feckless” and “undemocratic”. Now the Government have signalled that they wish to dilute the commitments under the Council of Europe’s Social Charter. Is this part of an agenda to seek trade agreements with countries that do not adhere to all eight of the ILO conventions and to the Social Charter? Will the Minister state clearly whether we will have stronger or lesser labour rights as a result of these moves?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, we will have an immigration system in which, wherever in the world you come from, there will be fairness. We are not considering withdrawing from the charter and I have explained about the human rights aspect. The CESC allows us to denounce all the charter or specific provisions. There is a huge list of countries, so we would not be alone in not implementing Article 18(2).

Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Wednesday 15th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

That is a very good point, and I will certainly take that back.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I declare an interest, as I chair the UK board of a peacebuilding charity that still operates within Afghanistan. The Minister indicated that UK officials have been in direct talks with the Taliban about the relocation, which is very welcome. However, of course we would all want to see continuing programmes within Afghanistan, so can the Minister confirm that UK officials will continue to talk with Taliban authorities? In the debate during the recall, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, told me that no UK aid will go to the Taliban Government directly. What is the Government’s policy on continuing to provide overseas development assistance for these vital programmes that we would all wish, in an ideal world, to continue?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

If the noble Lord is amenable, I will ask the FCDO to outline precisely the details of that because it is slightly beyond my purview today.

Zimbabwe: Human Rights

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will not be surprised to know, I will not discuss individual cases. What I will say is that on that flight were murderers, rapists, people who had sexually offended against children and suppliers of drugs. To go back to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, in terms of the frequency of reviewing concerns about human rights: FCDO regularly and consistently raises any concerns and would do so if there was any evidence of violations against those returned.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the note of 30 June that my noble friend Lord Oates referred to is the framework agreement with the Government regarding these flights, which the British Embassy indicated

“would start with around 100 possible persons … We agreed the flight would focus on Foreign National Offenders (FNOs) and (if capacity allowed) some immigration offenders.”

On the media points, it stated that in proactive and reactive communications that the returnees on the flight would have criminal records and, therefore, had to return to their country of origin. But that will not necessarily be the case in future if it includes those who have administrative removal for immigration purposes. Will the Minister please investigate this and reassure the House that, if this is a framework for flights going forward, all those on return flights who do not necessarily have criminal records will not all be badged as FNOs and therefore be highly vulnerable to abuse in the country of return?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I will certainly check that out for the noble Lord. We are committed to removing from this country any FNOs or anyone else for immigration purposes.

Reading Terrorist Attack

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes a valid point. Technology has its place in keeping us safe. We need to advance that technology in a way that strikes a balance between privacy and protection. Sometimes by breaching people’s privacy, you give them their freedom. There is so much advanced technology available to help keep us safe and it is important that we use it.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I will not ask the Minister to comment on the ongoing investigation because I know that she will not. There have been reports that the detained person had been accessing mental health services. Will she assure the House that, if lessons are to be learned from this tragic incident, the availability of mental health services in the community beyond those in the criminal justice system will also be considered? Even before this crisis, the Government’s record on providing mental health services for those seeking them has been very poor. Can we be assured that mental health services, specifically for young people and for those coming out of a criminal justice or prison situation, will be included as part of her stocktaking exercise?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right to point out that I will not comment on this individual case. There has been a lot of emphasis on mental health services in the last year or two. It is absolutely right that, if someone comes out from a prison—or indeed a hospital—with mental health needs, the wraparound service is there to protect them as they recover from it.

Domestic Abuse

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I concur with the Minister’s views about the noble Lord, Lord Judd. He will be greatly missed from the debate later today in the House. I served as a Member of the Scottish Parliament for the Borders and can recall casework where there were administrative problems with individuals who had to tackle cross-border issues with regard to the legal framework and relationships between local authorities in Scotland and England. That was prior to the welcome changes in legislation that the Minister referred to both for England and last year for Scotland, and prior to the changes in welfare legislation in relation to housing benefit in particular. What administrative relationships are in place to ensure that these changes do not exacerbate the potential difficulties that women, primarily, find themselves in on cross-border issues?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes a good point about having legislative alignment and making sure that legislation in one part of the UK does not contradict legislation in the devolved Administrations. Of course, those conversations and that work are ongoing to ensure that precisely that does not happen.

Peru: Visa Requirements

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Monday 4th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, a visa regime is not a barrier to trade. We have excellent trading relationships with many countries whose citizens require a visa to come to the UK such as China, India, Turkey and the UAE. All non-EEA visitors to the UK are assessed against the same immigration rules regardless of nationality and whether there is a visa requirement. The only difference is where the assessment is actually made. I can attest to the noble Baroness that our visa service is excellent: the processing time is less than eight days, and 97% of non-settlement visa applications were decided within our standard 15-working-day processing time. To return to the noble Baroness’s original Question about whether we will think again about Peru, as I have said to her, we will keep these things under regular review. I know the Foreign Secretary has had talks with Peru on trade, unveiling several infrastructure programmes that the UK is supporting.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, on an IPU visit to Peru last year the Minister for Trade and Tourism told me that the inward trade delegation from Peru to the UK was disrupted because of the visa complications at the British end, which I am afraid contradicts what the Minister has just told the House, and that does not seem to be an isolated incident. At the same time as the United States seems to be raising trade barriers and making it more complicated for us to trade, countries such as Peru are an ideal opportunity to enhance British direct trade and the visa regime is part of the difficulties that many businesses face. Given the Home Secretary’s announcement yesterday of a review, is Peru not a perfect example of a case study to be included in the Home Secretary’s review about how we could be facilitating a better regime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will be considering all situations in the round. I am dismayed to hear about any visa complications that might have been experienced by the Peruvian delegation to the UK. Obviously I will not discuss single cases on the Floor of the House but if the noble Lord will give me the details then I will look into it. I know the Foreign Secretary has signed a treaty on the mutual recognition of qualifications, which will facilitate greater exchange of people and opportunities for students from both the UK and Peru. He himself has heralded a developing and intensifying relationship between the UK and Peru that will enable both countries to save endangered wildlife, help to promote the education of women and girls and build our common prosperity.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Purvis of Tweed

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in moving the Motion I shall speak against the amendment to the Motion, which will be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley.

Commons Amendment 52 removes from the Bill Clause 20, which would amend Section 2 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 by lowering the minimum voting age from 18 to 16 for the local government franchise in England and Wales. Accepting Commons Amendment 52 would maintain the status quo on that local government franchise. Through his amendment the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seeks to change that franchise so that 16 and 17 year-olds could vote in all elections that are based on this local government franchise, including local government elections in England and Wales, police and crime commissioner elections, those for the Greater London Authority and mayor, and elections to the National Assembly for Wales. Sixteen and 17 year-olds would be eligible to vote in local neighbourhood planning referendums, council tax referendums and referendums on local authority governance arrangements.

We have discussed the voting age a number of times, and I do not wish to detain this House any longer than may be necessary on this matter. On each occasion we have made the Government’s position clear—that is, we do not believe that it is appropriate to lower the voting age to 16; and even if it was, this Bill would not be the place to make such a change.

Moreover, the other place has on two occasions, and by significant majorities, voted in support of its Amendment 52 maintaining the status quo on the local government franchise. The views of the other place are clear, and I believe that on such significant constitutional matters this unelected House should accept the very clear decision of the other place, given the democratic legitimacy that it has.

As to the substantive arguments, which we have made clear in earlier debates on this issue, it is at 18 rather than 16 that society generally views a young person as becoming an adult. Furthermore, most democracies consider 18 the right age to enfranchise young people. Only Austria in the European Union has lowered the voting age to 16 for national elections. While accepting that it is entirely right that the issue of the franchise in Scotland is one for the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish experience and position do not provide an example that this Parliament must necessarily follow.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I cannot see the Minister’s noble friend Lady Goldie, who led for her party in the Scottish Parliament on this issue and gave enthusiastic backing for lowering the voting age for local government elections in Scotland. Given what the Minister has just said, will she clarify the Conservative Party’s position on the capacity of 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in local government elections? Her party seems to think that it is peculiarly difficult for English 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in council elections but that Scottish 16 and 17 year-olds have that capacity. Therefore, if local elections fell on the same day in Berwick and Berwickshire, the English 16 and 17 year-olds would, in the opinion of the Conservative Party, not have the relevant capacity whereas those in Berwickshire would. Will the Minister explain why that is the case?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I said that the franchise in Scotland was a matter for the Scottish Government, that this unelected House was not the place to discuss the franchise, that this Bill was not the place to discuss the franchise and that the other place had given its very decisive view on the franchise. Those are the main points I am making, not that children in Berwick are less able than children in Glasgow to have this franchise. I am discussing the appropriateness of introducing this measure in this place on this Bill at this time, and urging noble Lords not to support it. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, will withdraw his amendment. It may be appropriate to have a full discussion on the franchise in the round at another time but now is not the time to do it. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Amendment to the Motion on Amendment 52