School Trips: Passport and Visa Requirements

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the reverse also damaging to our schoolchildren; namely, the fact that school trips from this country to the continent have been enormously cut back, with great harm to the education of our children? Is it not the same process as has happened to universities regarding the Erasmus scheme? The change has done colossal harm to internationalism and the transatlantic views of the British university population. Are our young people not all casualties of Brexit?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, that really is a stretch. We expect tourists who visit the UK from outside the EU to hold a passport and we now expect those from EU and EEA countries, and Switzerland, to do the same.

Sexual Offences: Anonymity

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will know that once a petition reaches 10,000 signatures, the Government can consider it for debate—I know I do not need to tell him that. He will also know that the release of suspects’ names by the police is governed by the College of Policing’s guidance on relationships with the media. Although I absolutely recognise the points made by my noble friend about some high-profile cases, we are not aware of any recent evidence to suggest that the police are not adhering to the guidance.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, does not the noble Lord raise a very important point about the frail basis that the police rely in arriving at the facts in these matters and how it is desperately necessary to have an independent view? In the case of Sir Edward Heath, the police said that the evidence was compelling and true; we now know that it was essentially made up. Is it not deplorable that in cases such as these the police are acting not as the custodians of civil liberties and the rule of law but as a major threat to them?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, first, I should apologise: I said that 10,000 signatures were needed; I meant 100,000 signatures. On the noble Lord’s point about independence and the presumed culpability of those who have been accused, the report stipulated that no inference of guilt was to be drawn but that the individual would have been interviewed under caution.

Operation Conifer: Sir Edward Heath

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Monday 12th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In terms of slandering the dead, I am not sure that, legally, the dead can be slandered. However, I am not taking away from the strength of feeling that both my noble friend and the House express in this matter. As I say, there is a route open for an inquiry. There have been several levels of scrutiny of Operation Conifer, and I really can say no more about it.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, an American political scientist once said that the curse of public life in this country is the curse of secrecy. Is this not a classic example of it? The Government are, in effect, colluding with the police and refusing to divulge evidence. The real victims—if you think about it—are the police, whose spokesman so far has been a tittle-tattling chief constable and not someone who is capable of giving a rational and legal view of this grave and dishonourable situation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally refute, both from my own and the Government’s point of view, that there has been any cloak of secrecy around this. The Home Office has given information to IICSA in the past and there is a clear route for any inquiry. As I say, Operation Conifer has been subject to extensive scrutiny.

Terrorism: Perpetrator Creed

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we do not have a policy on announcing the creed of attackers instead of the actual attack details. In fact, to this end OSCT has gone through all statements made by the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Security Minister where we have found reference to attacks and not one mentions the attackers’ backgrounds, except possibly by inference when they are named.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, confusion is caused by the use by the Government not of the term “terrorism”, which has an intelligible meaning, but of the term “radicalism”, which has almost no meaning at all, as in the Government’s Prevent strategy. Should not this be changed?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The term “radicalism” actually has a lot of meaning in the sense of the approach towards terrorist activity beyond that which is extremism. I do not think the term “radicalisation”, a term that is used all over the world, is going to be changed.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, has not the Foreign Secretary described the Government’s policy in this area as totally crazy and pointed to the fact that the number of Indian students in our universities has roughly halved? He has called for post-study work visas to be restored, and has asked for reassurances to be given to the Indian Government and for international students to be removed from the total of recorded immigration, because it is completely misleading. Would the Minister like to commend the wise words of a sometimes misrepresented colleague?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not know who is misrepresenting who but I do not feel that I can speak for the Foreign Secretary. In fact, sometimes I do not know if the Foreign Secretary speaks for others. It is indeed true that Indian student numbers have gone down, but Chinese student numbers have gone up. Indeed, figures for the Russell Group have gone up.

Prevent Strategy

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Wednesday 26th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right to say that we have to tread a very fine line in protecting what is a great freedom in this country—the freedom of speech—without creating an environment of the kind she outlined.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, do not university authorities and staff in fact find the Prevent strategy more of a hindrance than a help? It can make Islamic students, for example, more isolated and perhaps therefore open to radicalisation. It also spreads distrust in the student body much more generally. Should not the Government steer clear of these freedom of speech issues and leave them to universities, which understand them?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not think that freedom of speech should be ignored in that sense—and Prevent should not be seen as a threat to universities. What Prevent is not trying to do is curtail freedom of speech. What it is trying to do is protect those people who might be targeted by the terrorist recruiters who threaten this country.

Terrorist Attack in Nice

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Monday 18th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, looking at the universities in this country, it seems to me that the dangers which the Minister so clearly outlined perhaps occur at a slightly more subtle level. I do not believe that there are students planning acts of terrorism or crimes, but I believe that there is a serious danger of Islamic bodies acting in isolation, creating a kind of self-imposed apartheid, not communicating with other student bodies and being quite hostile towards women on the campus. The danger might be the liability to nurture a sense of communal separateness—religious separateness—which could develop, in particular circumstances, into something much more dangerous. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord has a very good point. The values that we share are not those of separation. Students should be able to come together to debate and not feel segregated either by sex or by religion. Some of the interfaith projects which the Government run—I go back again to my previous department—certainly promote that idea of common values rather than the separation of ideology.

Devolution: England

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it will be for a future Government to decide whether they want to move forward with fiscal devolution. However, as regards business rates retention, £11 billion has been retained in local areas.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, has not one of the problems with our arrangements been that our constitutional changes have been very piecemeal and haphazard? Should not the excellent suggestions of the noble Baroness be considered side by side with proposals for further devolution, fiscal and otherwise, for Scotland and Wales, preferably in a constitutional convention, as has been so wisely proposed by the leader of the Labour Party?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we have had a Silk commission, a McKay commission and a Calman commission. We are not currently contemplating a further convention. There is no particular demand for it—

Higher Education: Funding

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Morgan

Thursday 8th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the way in which the repayment system is structured means that no student, when they complete their studies, should ever be at a financial disadvantage. No graduate has to pay back their loan until they achieve an earning of £21,000 a year. There should not be any fear of an inability to pay back for the postgraduate student.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not a serious imbalance in university funding in terms of research, which has not been covered so far? The biblical precept has been followed of “To him who hath, more”—much more—“shall be given”. The effect is that only a small number of large, highly endowed universities are able to conduct a full research programme and be research active. Is it not seriously damaging to higher education in this country that our financing of research should be based on this inbuilt inequality?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that research is fundamental both to universities and to the economic future of the country. I refer him to the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement, in which the Chancellor announced a significant amount of new money for research.