Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Duke of Montrose

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Duke of Montrose]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has raised the question of pointed articles possibly being used by troubled people to cause injury. I should like further confirmation of my reading of the Keeling schedule that we were offered. I took great comfort from that. The part of the 1988 Act to do with supplying knives and blades to people aged under 18 refers to,

“a blade which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person”.

That, to my mind, rules out an ordinary pointed article. You would have to prove that it had been used or adapted to cause injury.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for these amendments. My noble friend has been clever about weaving back into last week’s debate on statutory guidance and the one that we have just had on the trusted trader scheme.

I can see that Amendments 81 and 82 attempt to provide further clarity for manufacturers and suppliers of kitchen utensils and to limit the impact of Clause 18 on such companies. As noble Lords will know, I met representatives of some knife manufacturers in Sheffield and I heard at first hand their concerns about this provision. Amendment 81 seeks to assist manufacturers, retailers and others by providing for statutory guidance on which items are covered by the definition of a bladed product. Amendment 82 clearly goes further and excludes from that definition any product “intended for domestic use” that requires a blade to function. As I understand it, the intention is that items such as food processors, and perhaps bread knives and steak knives, could be sent to residential premises if they have been sold remotely. Food processors and similar items are clearly not the sort of things that can be used as offensive weapons and it is not intended that they will be covered by the prohibition on arranging delivery to a residential premises or a locker. Products such as table knives are also excluded from the definition of bladed products because they are not capable of causing serious injury by cutting a person’s skin.

I turn to the wording of Amendment 82. The term “intended for domestic use” perhaps lacks clarity. Although most people would accept that kitchen knives are intended for domestic use, there may be some doubt as to whether hobby knives, camping knives and DIY tools can also be said to be intended for domestic use. I worry that amending the definition in this way could lead to sellers of fairly nasty knives marketing them as purely for domestic use to get around the delivery prohibition. That said, if a prosecution was brought for this offence, it would be for the seller to show that the product did not fall within the scope of the offence as it was intended for domestic use. The approach in Amendment 82 is therefore not without risks and there may be issues around defining what is meant by “domestic purposes”. However, I agree with my noble friend that this is certainly an area where guidance for retailers and others will be beneficial and it is our intention to provide such guidance, exercising the power conferred by Amendment 106, which we debated last week.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Duke of Montrose

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for explaining the rationale of these amendments, which would change the new offence of sending a corrosive or bladed product to residential premises or a locker so that no offence is committed if a product is delivered into the hands of a person over the age of 18. This would mean that sellers could continue to dispatch products to residential premises providing that they are sure that the products will be delivered to a person over 18. The amendments for corrosive products also amend the defence of having taken all reasonable precautions, to include that they believed that the products would be delivered to a person over 18 and they had either taken reasonable steps to establish the person’s age—for example, relevant age-verification documents such as a passport or driving licence had been provided—or it was clear that the person was not under the age of 18. It would also be a requirement for a delivery company acting on behalf of the seller to confirm they had checked the person was over 18 at the point of delivery. In effect, the amendments in this group say that if a seller meets the first of these requirements, they can go ahead and sell the items to residential premises.

The Government’s approach to the sale of corrosive products, bladed articles and products in relation to UK remote sellers is twofold. First, we want to drive an improvement in the age-verification and dispatch processes of remote sellers. We are doing this by saying that unless they meet certain minimum conditions, they will not be able to rely on the defence that they have taken all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence if they are prosecuted for the offence of selling a corrosive product or a bladed article to a person under 18. These conditions include that they have suitable age-verification systems in place at the point of sale, that they clearly label the items when they are dispatched and that they have arrangements in place to ensure that when finally delivered, the items are delivered into the hands of a person over the age of 18. Many of the requirements covered by the amendments in this group are already reflected in the Bill.

Secondly, we believe that in addition to stronger checks by remote sellers, the dispatch of corrosive and bladed products to a residential premise or locker should be banned and that instead, buyers will need to pick them up from a collection point. This will ensure that the items are not delivered to a person under 18. There are two reasons why the Government believe that, in addition to age checks at the point of sale, sellers should also be prohibited from sending the products to a home address. First, it will be possible for buyers to get round any age-verification systems at the point of sale in relation to remote sales, for example by using a borrowed credit card or using another person’s passport or driving licence. Until we are confident that online age-verification systems are robust, we do not want to depend on them entirely.

[The Duke of Montrose]

My Lords, I have a series of amendments later on to do with the delivery of bladed articles to residential premises. One of the matters that will always arise is that the Government say that if you can get your house classified as a place of business, then you come into the permitted category. However, I have two questions: first, what constitutes designating your premises as a place of business and secondly, will that affect the local authority’s view as to the level of rates that it would impose on the premises?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Turning to my noble friend’s question, if your home is also your registered business address, then clearly is it both. The noble Lord actually raised that point in Committee. The residential address can be either just a residential address or both a business and a residential address.

Returning to my other point about someone being prohibited from selling a product to a home address, we want to avoid any liability regarding checking age falling on the delivery company when the item is handed over. This is because delivery companies indicated in our discussions with them that they might simply refuse to deliver items on behalf of sellers if the legal responsibility for checking age falls to them. We are willing to accept this risk in relation to overseas sales because we are less concerned about the impact on overseas sellers, should their trade be affected, but for UK sales we do not want to place a liability on deliverers because there is a risk that they will then refuse to deliver any bladed items. The Government position is therefore that any liability for ensuring that any remotely sold corrosive and bladed products in the UK are not sold and delivered to under-18s should fall solely on the seller.

I have one final point to make, about a meeting that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and I had with the Sheffield knife manufacturers. As a result of that meeting, I want to satisfy myself of the position in relation to a couple of major delivery companies to ensure that that has not changed. Nothing in the meeting led me to doubt the position, but I just want to clarify that. In the meantime, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, to withdraw his amendment.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Duke of Montrose

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can utterly appreciate the noble Baroness’s point. When I look at legislation, I have to refer to other legislation, and it can be a minefield, but such is the nature of legislation built up over time. The guidance will help people in that endeavour and, as I said on Monday with reference to another issue, it will be very helpful to members of the public in knowing exactly where the offences are and what aspects of the Bill strike out other aspects of legislation.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

The noble Baroness was on her feet very quickly but I hope that I can still ask a question. As was said a few minutes ago, this is a bit like a Russian doll—you uncover one thing and it leads to another. Having been rather green on this subject, I would like to know where these exceptions are contained, as I cannot find them in Section 141.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

They can be found in regulations associated with the Acts I have just mentioned.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure that I could point to such cases if I had them in front of me. What I can point to is the evidence I have just given to the Committee that young people have said it is easier to buy knives online. I am not saying those young people are the ones going on to commit crimes, but the fact that it is easier for an under-18 to purchase online says to me that it is an easier route, should that person have criminal intent, to make that purchase online. I hope that is helpful to my noble friend.

[The Duke of Montrose]

Will the Minister tell us what sanctions have been imposed on people failing to obey the law in this way? It seems to me that there is plenty of scope for people to be charged. That will still apply. On the trusted trader scheme, perhaps the one point that has not been mentioned is that the designation could be taken away were there any doubt that somebody was not complying with the law, rather than having to go through some legal process that might deter people or make them more certain to check.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope that I have outlined what the Government have found through these test purchase failings. They have improved over recent years, but there is undoubtedly a basic failure in the system of the online purchase. Regarding the sanction for current failures in the system, it is a criminal offence, although it has been shown not to be a terribly compliant environment. It is far easier to have robust arrangements in place at a central delivery point rather than on each and every doorstep. That is the thinking behind the delivery point rather than the residential address.

Saddleworth and Tameside Moors

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Duke of Montrose

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I reiterate to my noble friend that any request for assistance has been met and, therefore, if certain vehicles, aircraft and water pumps are not deployed, that is because they have not been requested.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as somebody who owns a heather moor. I wonder if the Government will look into whether the moor was subject to moorland management—some conservation bodies nowadays believe in not managing moors at all.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend asks a very pertinent question. I will refer it to my colleagues in Defra because I do not know the correct answer to it.

Gangmasters (Licensing Authority) Regulations 2014

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Duke of Montrose

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the regulations were laid before Parliament on 9 June 2014. They revoke and replace the Gangmasters (Licensing Authority) Regulations 2005 and reform the governance of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) by reducing the size of the board from its current 29 members to nine members and enabling board members to be recruited through open competition rather than by nomination from a restricted set of organisations.

The GLA was set up in 2004 to protect vulnerable and exploited workers after the tragic deaths of 23 Chinese cockle pickers in Morecambe Bay. The authority licenses businesses which provide workers to the farming, food processing and shellfish-gathering sectors to make sure they meet the employment standards required by law, and carries out inspections and enforcement activity. Since 2004 the GLA has issued over 2,500 licences and initiated the successful prosecution of 70 individuals. Since 2010, the GLA has identified £1.2 million in proceeds of crime and protected over 5,000 workers, recovering some £4 million for victims. The GLA became a Home Office non-departmental public body on 9 April 2014, transferring from Defra.

The regulations before noble Lords today reflect one of the key recommendations of the Red Tape Challenge review of the GLA’s operations and implement a measure announced in a Written Ministerial Statement presented to Parliament in May 2012 by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, when he was Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at Defra. The planned reform of the board was a key recommendation of the triennial review of the GLA, which reported in April 2014.

When the GLA was established in 2004, the main concern underlying the design of its governance structures was to encourage a high level of participation from the widest possible cross-section of industry stakeholders in order to secure support for the introduction of the licensing regime. This resulted in a very large, representative board with places reserved—subject to ministerial appointment—to specific organisations named in statute, as well as a number of ex-officio places for government departments and agencies with operational interests in common with the GLA. This approach succeeded in helping the GLA establish itself as a well respected and effective regulator. However, it was recognised that the governance structures enshrined in the 2005 regulations were intended to serve the authority during its early years of operation, and that they should be reviewed to ensure that they continued to enable effective leadership.

The Red Tape Challenge review of the GLA concluded that its developing role in tackling worker exploitation and criminal activity demands more focused leadership, and the review recommended the introduction of a smaller board to provide the authority with clear strategic oversight and direction. Reforming the board in the way provided for in these regulations will enable the GLA to better adapt to the changing circumstances that it faces. Strong and effective engagement with the sectors that the GLA regulates remains important. This will be ensured through improved advisory groups reporting to the main board, building on the current system of sector liaison groups. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, I greatly welcome the measure introduced by the Minister, particularly the reduction in the number of people involved in running this operation. This will presumably result in better value for money in what is produced by the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. However, considering that originally—and, probably, even now—the expenditure was supposed to be recovered from the applicants, will this mean that the cost of the licences will now reduce? I do not know whether the GLA was successful in that regard. It might well have had a shortfall but, as the Minister mentioned, it certainly issued a great many licences over the period.

Originally, the GLA appeared to have only one set fee in obtaining a licence, and I wonder whether the new body will be allowed to differentiate at all between large and small employers. This is a topic that I have followed on and off for some time, and one of the interesting things is the range of activities that the GLA covers. The Explanatory Memorandum states that the GLA issues licences to businesses supplying labour in connection with agriculture, and the gathering of wild animals and wild plants. The Minister mentioned this in her introduction, but it may not be immediately obvious to Members of the Committee that apparently the gathering of wild plants includes forestry, and therefore the whole forestry industry seems to be brought into the regulations.

The particular issue that I came across was that many of the people who come to work in forestry are single, individual contractors. For example, I came across a fencer. In fencing it is much better to have two people, but as an independent contractor he would ask someone to come along and cut branches off the trees along the path of the fence he was building. If that person, however, finished his work and stopped to pick up a hammer in order to help the fencer, a gangmaster’s licence would be needed. The distinguishing feature is that if you are in charge of equipment, you are not part of a gang. The minute you become involved in manual labour for someone else, a gangmaster’s licence is required. I should be grateful to know how this has progressed and whether there will be any discretion under the new body to tailor the way in which it applies the regulations.