Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Williams of Trafford Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 73; do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendment 73C to the words restored by their disagreement to Amendment 73; do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendment 74A to its Amendment 74, on its Amendment 74B to that Amendment in lieu, or on its consequential Amendments 74C, 74D, 74E, 74F and 74G; do not insist on its Amendment 87, or on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments 87A, 87B, 87C, 87D, 87E, 87F and 87H to the words restored to the Bill; and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 73E in lieu of Lords Amendment 73 and in their Amendment 87K to the words restored by their disagreement with Lords Amendment 87.

73E: Page 48, line 8, at end insert—
“(5) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the day on which this section comes into force—
(a) prepare and publish a report on the operation of the amendments to section 12 of the Public Order Act 1986 made by this section, and
(b) lay the report before Parliament.”

87K: Page 56, line 32, at end insert—
“(2) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the day on which this section comes into force—
(a) prepare and publish a report on the operation of section 14ZA of the Public Order Act 1986, and
(b) lay the report before Parliament.”

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Motion A, and with the leave of the House, I will also speak to Motion B.

We return to familiar ground, namely the powers of the police to attach conditions to a protest, in particular relating to the generation of noise. In our last debate on these issues, we heard quite an entertaining speech from the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, who sought to caricature these provisions, but it would be no laughing matter if a group of protesters camped outside someone’s house or place of work and blasted out noise from loudspeakers at all times of the day and night.

By any objective test—under the Bill it is an objective test—the noise generated would amount to intimidation or harassment or cause those in the vicinity to suffer alarm or distress. In such a case the police should now be able to act, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, has pointed out, the public would expect them to act. In such a case, the police could place clear and enforceable conditions on the protest, perhaps prohibiting the use of amplification equipment or musical instruments between the hours of 10 pm and 7 am. So I hope we will not hear again the accusation that these provisions are unworkable. They are workable, proportionate and fully justified, albeit that, as I have said before, we expect them to be infrequently used.

On Motion B, I reiterate that the national policing lead for public order, Chief Constable Harrington, has been clear about the challenges of policing demonstrations which can start off as a procession but morph into an assembly, or vice versa. There is now no good reason for treating the two differently in law, and the provisions in Clause 56 should stand. We will of course want to keep the operation of these provisions under review, and Amendments 73E, 80K and 87K put forward by the Commons now enshrine in the Bill a commitment to post-legislative review to be completed within two years of commencement of the relevant clauses.

This is the third time that noble Lords’ amendments on these issues have been rejected by the Commons. The Commons has now voted on no less than four occasions during the passage of this Bill to endorse the noise-related provisions in Part 3. This brings me to the broader constitutional issue raised by my noble friend Lord Deben in our last debate.

My noble friend argued that the Government was failing to honour “the deal” between your Lordships’ House and the other place. We have honoured that deal and continue to do so. Given that the Commons is the elected House with a democratic mandate, the deal has never been that the other place rolls over whenever this House rejects a particular provision in a Bill. Rather, the deal is that the Commons reflects on the concerns raised by this House and thinks again. Having done so, the Commons may agree the substance of a Lords amendment, may propose a middle way, or may decide, as in this case, that it cannot accept a particular Lords amendment.

In relation to this Bill, there are many examples where the Commons has accepted the letter or the spirit of an amendment put forward by noble Lords, but in relation to the two public order issues, where the two Houses continue to disagree, the Commons has considered and reconsidered the concerns voice by noble Lords but has concluded, as is its right, that the provisions sent to this House last July should stand. The deal is that we, the unelected House, now accept the clearly and repeatedly expressed view of the Commons. We have done our constitutional duty and it is now time to let this Bill pass.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

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--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. I say from the outset that these provisions do not enable the police to ban noisy protests. They enable the police to attach conditions to a protest in relation to the generation of noise. That is quite an important distinction. Similarly, Clause 56 does not enable the police to ban assemblies. I simply reiterate that these provisions represent a measured and proportionate rebalancing of people’s rights to protest peacefully with the rights of those whose lives may be unacceptably disrupted by the tactics employed by the minority of protests—such as those by the group Just Stop Oil, whose members believe that their rights and point of view trump everybody else’s.

Setting aside the substance of the amendments, the central issue now before noble Lords is whether it is appropriate to send these amendments back to the Commons for a third time. We have already—quite properly—asked them to reconsider these issues not once but twice. I do not think that asking the same question for a third time will yield a different answer.

On seniority—that is, the rank of a police officer—for an upcoming protest, the chief constable of the relevant force will be responsible for making the decision on whether the threshold is likely to be met. This power can be delegated to an assistant chief constable under Section 15 of the Public Order Act. For a protest that is already in train, the most senior officer at the scene will decide whether the threshold is met; depending on the circumstances, that senior officer would typically be an inspector, chief inspector or superintendent.

With that said, I hope noble Lords will agree to Motions A and B.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I wish to test the opinion of the House on Motion A1.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 80, do not insist on its disagreement with the Commons in their Amendments 80A, 80B, 80C, 80D, 80E, 80F and 80H to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with that Amendment, do not insist on its Amendment 80J instead of the words left out by that Amendment and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 80K to the words restored to the Bill by their disagreement with Lords Amendment 80.

80K: Page 49, line 34, at end insert—
“(7) The Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of 2 years beginning with the day on which this section comes into force—
(a) prepare and publish a report on the operation of the amendments to section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 made by this section, and
(b) lay the report before Parliament.”

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I have already spoken to Motion B, so I beg to move.

Motion B1 (as an amendment to Motion B)

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