Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Lord Pannick

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I want to add only a short comment to the remarks made by my noble friend. I can think of nothing that would do more to undermine public confidence in the judicial system than an attempt to try to include coroners’ courts. I will be assured that there has been a promise from the Lord Chancellor that this will not happen, but I cannot understand why the Bill still clearly indicates that there could be a power to include such a court. The Bill says that in exact terms. The idea of excluding the CMP in an inquest would so outrage large sections of the public, especially on publicly very sensitive cases, that I can think of little that would do more to undermine confidence.

I also strongly agree with the general thrust of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. He rightly understands that there is a tendency to have what one might call “executive mission creep”. The temptation to extend powers if there is nothing to limit them more strictly in the Bill is a very powerful temptation indeed. The noble Lord is quite right to say that the procedure laid down here is relatively slow. It is also, to be frank, if I may, relatively inefficient because it depends to a great extent on the interest that is shown in the House of Commons in the procedures that are put before it. Sadly, the story of affirmative procedures is often rather of neglect of the issues and substance put before the House.

The noble Lord is absolutely right to argue that primary legislation would be a more appropriate way to safeguard citizens’ freedoms than to rely on this cumbersome procedure. I strongly hope that the Government will reconsider this very wide-ranging legislation, with very few limits on it. I wonder whether it would be possible perhaps to redraft the legislation in narrower terms and to have more effective accountability. Many of us in the Committee would feel rather more confident about the ability of the legislation to win public support and public confidence.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I share the concerns that have led to these amendments. The views of the Committee and the other place on whether the Bill contains an adequate balance between justice and security will depend on the scope of the Bill and on the scope of the concept of relevant civil proceedings. The wider the scope of the Bill, the less willing Parliament will inevitably be to approve Part 2; and the wider the scope the more willing Parliament must be to include amendments that provide safeguards in respect of the closed procedures.

Given that we are debating this Bill on the basis of the current scope that it contains, it seems fundamentally wrong in principle to give the Secretary of State a power thereafter to expand the Bill’s scope in a manner that when that proposal comes before Parliament will prevent us proposing any amendments that would introduce necessary safeguards that Parliament might think are required in the light of the expanded scope of the Bill.

With the Committee’s permission, I shall return—I have checked the facts—to a matter raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, in her response to the previous group of amendments. She told the Committee, as I understood her, and as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, understood her, that the Government may envisage that an application for a closed material procedure may be made in secret, without notification to anyone. My understanding, which I have confirmed, is that under the old control order procedure and the existing TPIM procedure, the application for a closed hearing is always made in public. Indeed, it has to be made publicly because the whole point of the special advocate procedure is that the special advocate before the closed procedure starts can talk to the litigants concerned and obtain information from them.

Furthermore, once a judgment is given, there is always an open judgment, which always refers to the closed judgment—if there is a closed judgment—without of course disclosing the confidential material that is in the closed judgment.

Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I would be very grateful if there could be clarification as soon as possible as to whether it is really the Government’s intention, in relation to the closed material procedure, that applications could be made in secret, entirely differently from how the control order and TPIM regime works.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Lord Pannick

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, it is important to spend a moment or two explaining the purpose of a risk register. One of the difficulties that has arisen over recent years is that risk registers have been used in the planning of long-term substantial projects by both the last Labour Government and the present coalition Government. When a risk register is produced, the effort is to consider all the contingencies—some of them highly unlikely—which might arise in relation to that project. There will certainly be some information in that category that would enable the discussion of any Bill of sufficient significance passing through Parliament to be treated with better knowledge than might otherwise be the case. It is also true that under the terms of the relevant legislation, particularly under Section 35(1)(a), there is an exemption category which allows those registers that directly affect policy formulation to claim an exemption from the output and effect of information legislation.

What we now know happened in this case is that when the Information Commissioner considered the point put to him by the original seeker after information, he had to weigh up on the one side the exemption argument and on the other side the argument of the public interest. He himself indicated in his original findings in early November this year that it was a very narrow balance, but that he believed, as the noble Baroness has said, that the issue was sufficiently in the public interest for him to overrule the exemption. There is a legislative right to appeal, of course, and that right to appeal was taken up by the Department of Health on the grounds that this is to do with policy formulation and therefore falls within the exemption. It asked the commissioner to overrule the application. The commissioner decided to uphold the application on the balance of considerations both ways, and the Department of Health then decided to use its right to appeal and it is that appeal which is now about to come before the tribunal. My understanding is that both sides in this argument, the complainant and the defendant, have asked for more time in order to prepare their cases. Only after that will the tribunal be able to make a ruling.

Along with the noble Baroness, I am of the view that it would be helpful to the Report stage of this Bill to have as much information as can possibly be made available. However, the proper way to do that is to allow the tribunal to reach a judgment. My understanding is that if both parties to the tribunal were to request a decision to be made as quickly as possible after the cases have been prepared, the tribunal might be agreeable to a rapid decision. That is very important because nothing can happen before such a decision and it would be unfortunate for the House if the result was not known well before the Bill reaches Report.

I ask the Minister whether he could consider such a joint approach to the tribunal, recognising fully that the two sides must be able to prepare their cases, to see whether it could not act much more quickly than is its usual practice in order to allow the House to have the information if, indeed, the tribunal decides not to uphold the appeal. If it does uphold the appeal, it will then of course be a different case and there will not be any further argument about it. I put that to the Minister because I believe it is very important to settle this issue quickly. I fear that it may hang like a dark shadow over the whole of the Report stage. It must be decided one way or another either before or very soon after the Report stage begins when the House resumes in the new year.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I understand the wish of the Government to appeal against the decision of the commissioner because of the general issues of importance raised under the freedom of information legislation, but the issue raised today by the amendment does not depend on the proper answer to the question that was before the commissioner and which will be before the tribunal. That is because the issue before the commissioner and the tribunal was the proper balance of interests—a very difficult balance of interests, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has said—between the public interest in having this information and the very real need to ensure that risk registers in general are not disclosed. But the issue before the House is different. It is the issue of whether the Members of this House should be given information that the commissioner in his judgment, having seen that information, has said will be of considerable importance in enabling the Members of this House to perform our scrutiny function in relation to this vital Bill.

I cannot share the opinion of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that this is the same issue as will be before the commissioner. It is a matter for the judgment of this House how best we perform our scrutiny function. Whatever the balance may be, in general, between the public interest in disclosure and the very real interest in not disclosing confidential information that is on a risk register, the balance is surely very different in principle when we have before the House a Bill that we are scrutinising and considering. It would, I think, require an overwhelmingly strong argument to justify non-disclosure to this House of information that is relevant to our scrutiny function. I therefore hope that the Minister will be able to say today that he is prepared to disclose to this House at least the substance of the information that is contained in the risk register, so that we may fully perform our scrutiny function in relation to this vital Bill.