Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Lord Owen

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

In view of the reference to me by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, perhaps I may say a few words before the debate proceeds and the Minister replies. The Committee showed good sense—and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was good enough not to press the matter to a vote—over the information tribunal’s decision on the risk register. At the time, it was sensible to undertake to withhold our judgment until there had been an opportunity for the tribunal to consider the Department of Health’s appeal. However, the intervention by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay—as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, indicated—clearly suggests that it would be possible, by a mutual approach from the Government and the Opposition, to speed up the processes under which the appeal was held.

Given that the government Chief Whip agreed that the matter should not come before the House on Report before the end of January, that provided an additional three weeks—a reasonable period of time—to try to persuade the tribunal to act reasonably rapidly. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was good enough to say that in some cases which he knew of, the tribunal had been able to deal with an issue in as little as three or four days. That seems very apposite, since it is hard to think of anything much more constitutionally important than the Report stage of a Bill of this kind, and there should be no question of the debate on Report taking place before there is an outcome to the tribunal appeal.

This House recognised that it was proper that the law should take its normal course. We therefore withheld any attempt to try to press it by, for example, insisting on a vote. I think that that was to the credit of the Official Opposition. However, it is quite clear that the decision is very germane to the Report stage. It is highly relevant. All of us accept that if the appeal is upheld then we will be bound by it in a proper course of law, appropriate to all people who come before the tribunal. However, we also all recognise that it lies upon the Government to endeavour to reach a decision as quickly as possible. I am sure that the Opposition, and certainly we on these Benches, would strongly support an approach of that kind.

I would simply plead with the Minister, who has been so reasonable to the House on so many matters, to recognise that there is a real difficulty if the appeal, not having been heard, hangs over Report, and as a result leaves people able to say, “But if the appeal had gone the other way, X and Y would follow”. If the Department of Health—whose record is patchy, to say the least, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, has rather sharply pointed out—really cares about information being made available, or at the least upholding the law that makes the tribunal make a final decision, it really is crucial that, at the end of this Committee stage, we hear from the Minister whether steps are being taken to accelerate the process as much as possible to enable Report to start properly at the end of January. I would simply urge that attention might also be paid to the further evidence provided by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which, to say the least, is somewhat disturbing.

[Lord Owen]

May I just make a slight correction? I said that the debate on the impact of the European Union on healthcare in the United Kingdom in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, will be held on 10 January. It will actually be held on 11 January, as the dinner-break business. I want to be quite clear about the timing of that important debate, which at the moment is limited to a maximum of one hour.

While I am on my feet, I want to stress that every word that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has said is wholly appropriate. This question of risk assessment is central to the judgments which will have to be made at Report. I hope very much that we do not proceed to Report until the tribunal's judgment has been heard.