Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Lord Newton of Braintree

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, those who have been here will have realised by now that this is one of my “good boy” days. At the risk of seeming sycophantic, even beyond being a good boy, I support every word that my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones has just said. I will refer back in a moment to something the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said about former Ministers. This chunk of the Bill—Part 3—is largely about Monitor and includes a lot that the House has been pressing for in terms of increasing Monitor’s power to intervene and do sensible things in a sensible way. It also includes all the stuff about pricing and tariffs, which in my view need to be addressed now, not in four years’ time.

My main point concerns what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said about former Ministers knowing about the problems caused by upheaval. We do. I became very much aware that the publication of a White Paper was the start of a process, not the end. Too often Ministers think that all they have to do is publish an edict and everybody on the ground will carry it out. These things take time, trouble and involve culture change. However—this is the point here—what is equally or even more damaging is year upon year of uncertainty, which is what this amendment seeks to bring about.

I have referred on a number of occasions to the merger/takeover proceedings in which I was involved last year with the health trust that I then chaired. That occurred partly against the background of Monitor and the competition matters that are being changed in this Bill for the better. The worst thing was the uncertainty for everybody involved—the way it was dragging on and nobody knew what the future was. Good people started to leave or think about whether they had a future with the organisation. It would be insane to go down this path and I strongly recommend that the House should not do so.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I fully understand the fervour and passion with which my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones spoke, because he feels very strongly that he, with the help of others, brought about a real change in Part 3. I make no pretence about the fact that I began by being totally opposed to Part 3. I was on public record as saying that I thought it was a very bad thing indeed, but very sweeping changes have been made to it, and on that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree.

However, I do not want to stop at that point. My noble friend said that we were at a watershed and I believe that we are. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and her colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for tabling this important amendment, and I shall explain why. In this House, we have a great deal of trust in the Minister. Repeatedly and rightly, huge tribute has been paid to him throughout these debates for his understanding, his patience, his willingness to go a very long way to meet the needs and requirements of other people and, if I may say so, his permanent consciousness and awareness of why the British public love the NHS so much. More than virtually any other politician that I can think of, he has real empathy with what people want and expect from their health service and it is important to recognise that.

The noble Earl has punched—if I may say so politely—well above his weight. His weight is not, of course, that great but his punch is terrific. He has persuaded a great many of us—not, I suspect, only on this side of the House—with the elegant and generous way in which he has put forward compromises and concessions. Many of us have accepted these or, like the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, decided to wait a little longer to see what might come out of what he said. That is an immense personal contribution.

We would be in a world of illusion if we did not recognise that outside this House and the other place, where my honourable friend Mr Burstow is doing his very best on the social care side, there is, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, rightly said, massive distrust and disbelief in what we are trying to do. We have to address that or we can forget altogether about doing what the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, rightly said we need to do—to give the National Health Service some stability, some confidence and some sense that it has a future. This is the most labour-intensive public service. Our whole capacity for addressing the Nicholson challenge and the problems of an ageing and often chronically troubled society, and for delivering what most of us want and which is enshrined in the words that we wrote into the Bill at the very beginning of its passage in this House—the responsibility and accountability of the Secretary of State for a comprehensive health service free at the point of need—will go with the wind without the support and morale of the professional services, the staff and the public.

As Members of this House will remember, we owe a great deal to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for the Conservative Party, we owe a great deal to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and her team for the Labour Party, and we owe a very great deal to the Cross-Benchers for the steady support they have given to maintaining the stability and future of the National Health Service, which all of us recognise as probably the greatest single social achievement of this country since the Second World War.

What I like very much about the amendment is the second section, where the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, point to the need for consultation before there is a move towards bringing Part 3 into full effect—I would go wider and say before bringing into full effect the Bill itself. It is vital that, when the Bill has completed its passage, the Government and the Department of Health in particular seek to hold a wider consensual discussion, bringing in the main bodies but also the main people who have been involved in the Bill, regardless of whether they stood for or against it, in order to give the National Health Service the foundation it needs to address the huge scale of the problems it faces.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Lord Newton of Braintree

Thursday 15th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 299A and 299AA.

Before I do so, let me say just a word or two about two other amendments in this group, that is, Amendments 299ZA and 299AZA. I warmly thank the Minister, my noble friend Lord Howe, for having listened with such care to those of us who spoke to him about the issue of foundation trusts, in particular the issue of the private income paid into foundation trusts and the question of how that private income should be used ultimately for the benefit of the health service. He has been very patient, very willing to listen and extremely helpful. On behalf of these Benches and my own party I would like to thank him, and I am sure that others in the House will share that gratitude for the way in which he has responded.

I do not want to go into detail, because the amendments are very clear and have been laid, beyond saying that the first of those amendments, Amendment 299ZA, clearly states the situation with regard to income that comes into a foundation hospital—that is, that that income must be ultimately devoted to the health service. It sets beyond question or ambiguity the Government’s position on this critical issue. I am therefore extremely grateful to the Minister for that.

I also strongly support the proposals about the annual report. I take to heart the Minister’s distinction between the way in which the annual report deals with the funding of National Health Service patients in foundation trusts and with the separate funding of private patients in foundation trusts. On both those issues, it is extremely helpful that the annual report should be clear and open, so that we can all discuss not only the very serious issues that have been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, but also, as pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the very disturbing report from the Public Accounts Committee, which reiterates over and over again the need for leadership and for a clear statement of where the trusts stand, and the real concerns it has about the difficulties that some of them now confront. It is a dramatic report, and we should commend it to this House as far as we possibly can. Perhaps a separate debate on that issue in the Public Accounts Committee report would be appropriate on some future occasion.

Having said that, I will add only one other thing with regard to the first two amendments I mentioned, which are familiar enough to the noble Earl. In my view, it would be very helpful if there were “belt and braces”, by which I mean a government amendment which would indicate that, in the case of foundation trusts, the majority of patients should be NHS patients. That is, there should be an unquestionable commitment to having a majority of NHS patients. There are two reasons for that. One is simply that, good as the amendment unquestionably is, it is difficult for the general public—I certainly include myself in this—to understand the precise thrust of Amendment 299ZA, which I have quoted. It is helpful in this complicated Bill to have some islands of clarity that those who are not experts in the field—again, I include myself—can understand. People could understand the simple concept that a majority of patients should be from the NHS, not the private sector.

The other reason why I beg him to look at this carefully is that it is also important from the point of view of the complex debate that we have already had in this Committee on the issue of competition policy and EU competition policy. If there is a clear statement that the majority of patients must come from the NHS, that should be immensely helpful in ensuring that we are not then subjected to the rigours of the extreme competition policies defended at present in the EU and, indeed, by our own Competition Commission. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, who knows a great deal about the legalisms of competition policy, may have something to add on this point.

I turn briefly—well, fairly briefly; I am now conscious of the disapproval of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, so I shall be a little more detailed—to the three more minor amendments in the group that my name is associated with. The first of those is Amendment 297, where we would like to add the words,

“for the purposes of the National Health Service”.

In order to persuade noble Lords of the importance of this, I will read out the text that the Bill currently inserts:

“The general duty of the board of directors, and of each director individually, is to act with a view to promoting the success of the corporation so as to maximise the benefits for the members of the corporation as a whole and for the public”.

In that wording, the public trail far behind the interests of the members of the corporate body. That is unfortunate and unwise. We are therefore proposing the simple amendment that the words “for the purposes of the NHS”, which, as noble Lords will appreciate, recur in other parts of the Bill on many occasions, should be added to this section about the directors of foundation trusts. It is important to reiterate that foundation trusts work for the interests of the NHS, which is why we have suggested this simple amendment.

On Amendment 299AA, on which my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones will speak in slightly more detail, the point here is quite straightforward. Clause 162(1)(a), which we are suggesting should be left out, removes the existing subsection in the National Health Service Act 2006 that limits the provision of private services. In particular, the 2006 Act permits not the abolition but the restriction of private health services within foundation trusts. Section 44(1) of the 2006 Act provides that,

“An authorisation may restrict the provision, for purposes other than those of the health service in England, of goods and services by an NHS foundation trust”.

In other words, that subsection again sustains the argument that there is a role for the private sector but that there must be restrictions on it if the NHS trusts and foundation trusts are to sustain their fundamental legal obligation to the NHS. It is important that these restrictions should be upheld. Indeed, the authorisations that I have referred to are critical to the concept of maintaining the foundation trusts within the health service system and therefore making it less vulnerable to competition legislation.

The final amendment that I want to refer to is Amendment 299A, where we are simply bearing out what I have already said. I therefore hope the House will now hear additional arguments from my noble friend to show why this group of amendments is very important in order to retain the current status of foundation trusts, which is very welcome, and which will assist in meeting some of the trenchant criticisms of the Public Accounts Committee about this whole sector of the health service. I beg to move.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I will come in very briefly. I declare a past interest as former chairman of the Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation Trust, which probably has as large a private patient income as any in the country. Frankly, that income considerably benefits the two hospitals and their NHS patients.

I welcome the amendments of my noble friend, and hope that the Minister will give them careful consideration. All of us in this House, not least those of us who are former Ministers of health, have been united in our wish to see a successful and flourishing NHS, and in being really dedicated to it. It would be an oddity if a hospital designated as an NHS trust—whether foundation or otherwise—were treating a majority of patients who were not NHS patients. That is quite a simple proposition, and it is the one advocated by my noble friend Baroness Williams.

The amendments already tabled by my noble friend on the cap on income are extremely welcome and sensible. However, I hope that he might think of—dare I say it—embracing the thoughts of my noble friend Lady Williams as well in some further modification of those amendments so that they refer both to income and to numbers. The numbers thing will be more readily understood by many members of the public. Clearly we do not want NHS trust hospitals to gain most of their income from doing non-NHS work or from treating non-NHS patients. That just does not make sense. It would helpful if we could make that clear.