Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Baroness Wheeler

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, in responding to this group I should like first to raise on behalf of my noble friend Lady Thornton the issue of the register of risks on the Health and Social Care Bill. I also apologise on her behalf for not raising the matter at the appropriate time.

In the debate on the Motion of Regret on 7 December several noble Lords referred to the starting point of Report being timed so that the appeal on the Information Commissioner’s report will have been completed and the House will know the result. The Minister himself said:

“I am as keen as anyone to see the matter speedily resolved”.—[Official Report, 7/12/11; col. 736.]

The usual channels are, of course, discussing the next stage of the Bill. We agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, about the risk of this issue not being resolved in time for the next stage. On 7 December, she said:

“I fear that it may hang like a dark shadow over the whole of the Report stage”.—[Official Report, 7/12/11; col. 726.]

In the same debate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said:

“I believe the solution proposed by my noble friend”—

the noble Baroness, Lady Williams—

“is the best one … that an expedited decision should be sought from the tribunal”.—[Official Report, 7/11/12; col. 731.]

I have asked my noble friend the opposition Chief Whip, and appeal to the usual channels, not to finalise the arrangements for Report and the timetable until the House has an answer to the question. Our understanding is that a normal timescale, if we are lucky, might mean that we will have a tribunal decision in late February. The Government will then have the option of appealing to the Upper Tribunal. Does the Secretary of State intend to seek expedition of this process? What steps have Ministers taken to ensure that the appeal is heard as early as possible? The Minister can, if he wishes, respond in writing to my noble friend, though obviously he will need to do it as soon as possible.

I shall also speak briefly to this group of amendments generally. I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Warner and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, all of which seek to strengthen the Secretary of State’s duty to prepare and publish information standards governing the collection, processing and dissemination of information on the provision of NHS health and adult social care. I know that the Minister is in favour of having light-touch definitions in the Bill, but we strongly support being more specific about what the information standard is to be, what it is for and what it should include.

The definition proposed in Amendment 347A underlines that it must include,

“the efficient and effective collection … of information that”—

most importantly—

“benefits the commissioning and provision of health and adult social care services”.

It is equally important to specify that the standard includes the provision of information that will help improve public health and well-being and assist the public’s ability to make informed choices about care and treatment. We also support Amendment 347B, from the noble Lord, Lord Low, which seeks to ensure that the,

“information standard must include a requirement to record patients’ preferred reading format: standard print, large print, audio or Braille”.

We support the general aim of this part of the Bill: to place the current health and social care information centre on a firmer statutory footing, replacing the current special health authority. We have a number of issues to raise, and will do so in the next group.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

In view of the reference to me by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, perhaps I may say a few words before the debate proceeds and the Minister replies. The Committee showed good sense—and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, was good enough not to press the matter to a vote—over the information tribunal’s decision on the risk register. At the time, it was sensible to undertake to withhold our judgment until there had been an opportunity for the tribunal to consider the Department of Health’s appeal. However, the intervention by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay—as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, indicated—clearly suggests that it would be possible, by a mutual approach from the Government and the Opposition, to speed up the processes under which the appeal was held.

Given that the government Chief Whip agreed that the matter should not come before the House on Report before the end of January, that provided an additional three weeks—a reasonable period of time—to try to persuade the tribunal to act reasonably rapidly. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was good enough to say that in some cases which he knew of, the tribunal had been able to deal with an issue in as little as three or four days. That seems very apposite, since it is hard to think of anything much more constitutionally important than the Report stage of a Bill of this kind, and there should be no question of the debate on Report taking place before there is an outcome to the tribunal appeal.

This House recognised that it was proper that the law should take its normal course. We therefore withheld any attempt to try to press it by, for example, insisting on a vote. I think that that was to the credit of the Official Opposition. However, it is quite clear that the decision is very germane to the Report stage. It is highly relevant. All of us accept that if the appeal is upheld then we will be bound by it in a proper course of law, appropriate to all people who come before the tribunal. However, we also all recognise that it lies upon the Government to endeavour to reach a decision as quickly as possible. I am sure that the Opposition, and certainly we on these Benches, would strongly support an approach of that kind.

I would simply plead with the Minister, who has been so reasonable to the House on so many matters, to recognise that there is a real difficulty if the appeal, not having been heard, hangs over Report, and as a result leaves people able to say, “But if the appeal had gone the other way, X and Y would follow”. If the Department of Health—whose record is patchy, to say the least, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, has rather sharply pointed out—really cares about information being made available, or at the least upholding the law that makes the tribunal make a final decision, it really is crucial that, at the end of this Committee stage, we hear from the Minister whether steps are being taken to accelerate the process as much as possible to enable Report to start properly at the end of January. I would simply urge that attention might also be paid to the further evidence provided by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, which, to say the least, is somewhat disturbing.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Baroness Wheeler

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, the combination of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lords, Lord Walton of Detchant and Lord Wigley, is a pretty powerful triad by any standards. I express my support for what the noble Baroness said. We have seen some remarkable work done by the ombudsman for England—who I think is retiring from her post—particularly in respect of the care of elderly people. It has been very important in giving the public a sense that they have access to the highest levels when they have a complaint.

My only concern about this amendment is that it is very important indeed that as far as possible complaints are dealt with by health and well-being boards locally, because very often local knowledge is crucial in understanding why something has gone badly wrong. I always think it is significant that the ombudsman for England has been most effective when she has written reports that cover an area. When it comes to a personal complaint, very often it is the local level which is the appropriate one to deal with it. More than that, very much part of the education and understanding that a health and well-being board can bring to the whole issue of patient responses and patient care in the NHS is that people should at least see the local level as the first point of complaint. Having said that, it is obviously important that there is a final, as it were, court of appeal —I do not mean that in a legal sense of the word —and that is what the ombudsman ought to be. Clearly he or she should be independent of any particular interest in the health service, and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that it should apply across the board to all providers whether private, voluntary or within the NHS structure.

With those few words, I support the amendment and think it is an important one. However, I emphasise that the starting point should always be, wherever possible, at the local level, and that the ombudsman should be seen as the last and final resort.

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I support this amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and I am grateful to her for explaining its context and background so clearly. The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is currently excluded from investigating complaints about the health service in Wales, so this amendment will ensure that the role of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, in investigating complaints against local health boards, NHS trusts, GP services and community health councils in Wales, is recognised and included in this Bill.

Ensuring that the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales has the legal right to share complaints reports with people he or she considers appropriate is a minor but important amendment and safeguard. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Crosby and Baroness Wheeler

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I have actually gone in to the story of Kaiser Permanente very carefully. It is not surprising that if you choose the very best example in another country you can make a favourable comparison. I am talking about the outcomes for a whole population rather than a particular part of a population. I have said already that there are certainly areas where competition can play a very important part—I referred to innovation and new ideas—but I am simply putting on the record that if you look at the comparison between the health services of the 11 most advanced, richest and most industrialised countries in the world, the combination of integration and competition that we have here appears to have rather better outcomes than in those countries that rely much more heavily on competition such as the United States.

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to my Amendment 135B. Since the Future Forum report, there is a renewed focus on integration in the Bill, and we welcome that. However, as a number of noble Lords pointed out at Second Reading, there is a need to define what we mean by integration. Government amendments largely reinforce the benefits of integration to the NHS rather than looking at the system from the perspective of health and social care, service users and using integration to develop person-centred services. My amendment and others in this group seek to begin to address this.

Since most people with long-term and complex health needs also depend on social care services in order to maintain their health, well-being and independence, it is crucial that the Bill ensures that measures to increase integration also extend to social care. In the NHS, integration has primarily focused on integration of primary and secondary healthcare and to integrate back office support such as IT, human resources and estate management in order to make efficiency savings. While both of these aspects of integration are important, they will not lead to the system transformation hoped for in the Government’s Liberating the NHS White Paper. We need to continue the now reasonably well established place-based approach to integration which brings health and social care together, in which the totality of public resources is directed to develop seamless services which support individuals. As such, they are far more likely to lead to system reform in which all public services focus on achieving better outcomes for individuals and communities.

Local councils have an established record of commissioning for people with complex and ongoing health and social care needs: in particular, homeless people; people with mental health problems, learning disabilities, AIDS/HIV and dementia; and children’s health. It is vital that commissioners of services for people with complex health and social care needs understand the important contribution of housing, leisure and recreation, access to education and other mainstream local authority services to supporting vulnerable people to remain healthy, independent and productive members of the community. Noble Lords have pointed out that clinical commissioning groups will have little understanding or experience of commissioning the complex package of support required. I would therefore emphasise the importance of joint commissioning or delegating commissioning to local authorities and hope that the Minister will respond positively to this.