Strathclyde Review

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

My Lords, I ask the indulgence of the House for a moment to say just a word about my friend and colleague who gave her maiden speech a few moments ago. There is no doubt that my noble friend Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted is one of the most remarkable economists, with incredible knowledge of very complex financial matters. She has already been a great asset to the European Parliament, and anybody who follows its work will know that, time and again, she has intervened in order to establish a more sensible, more rational, more thoughtful and less bureaucratic approach by the Commission to many of the things that it does within Europe. I believe that she will make a major contribution to our discussions over the next few weeks and months with regard to the referendum and its outcome, one for which the House will be extremely grateful. She made in her maiden speech a compact, short but extremely wise contribution to what will be a future discussion perhaps even more than to the present discussion today.

One of the subtle things about the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is that he is very good at hinting at what he wants to say without shouting about it; he just leaves it to sink in so that people understand the complexities of what he is trying to get across. What I am saying in another kind of language is that if one reads his review carefully, one will see that it points to the weaknesses in the whole structure that we have for how we deal with statutory instruments.

Let me take two examples from his compact, well-worded and thoughtful review. In it he points out, as the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, pointed out, that there is a real problem with the sheer scale of statutory instruments. He does not say that in so many words, but he makes it quite clear that in making his own proposals work, he hopes that there would be a much greater recognition by government of the limitations of and obvious flaws in relying on statutory instruments as a way to get across complex legislation. In that context, I have to say that, frankly, I do not think that the tax credit system was one that lent itself to having a statutory instrument explain it rather than the proper procedure of primary legislation. The House has already indicated the ways in which that could have been done.

I believe that the House sometimes sells itself short. It is more than just a revising Chamber. It is a Chamber that, on many occasions, has reiterated the fundamental foundations of what it is to live in a constitutional democracy. In that context, to deal with legislation on issues as sensitive as the level of income of people already hard-pressed as a result of the economic crisis is not appropriate for a statutory instrument. It is much more appropriate for what the Lords does well: to bear in mind the balances and challenges that make it possible for a democracy to survive. Although it is not itself democratic, as my noble friend Lord McNally pointed out, the Lords is often very conscious and sensitive about the constitutional issues that have to be taken into account.

Among those constitutional issues, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, pointed to what he calls the conventions. Therefore, I think that the acceptability of his third option, which has certain attractions, would be much enhanced if he was able to show that there is a balance, in constitutional terms, for it. That balance needs to be of two things, as he himself has hinted. The first one I have mentioned already: a real study of whether statutory instruments are becoming out of control in terms of the sheer weight and volume of them—over 3,000 a year in years that do not have an election within them.

The second one, as he also made clear in his review, is the deep and profound undesirability of statutory instruments replacing primary legislation. That is why he also very sensibly said that primary legislation must be enriched by being clearer and by spelling out in more detail what the implications of it are; and that the steady retreat of Governments of all kinds from primary legislation which is detailed, sensibly set out and clear into statutory instruments is a substantial threat to the best workings of parliamentary democracy.

I am inclined to agree with my noble friend Lord McNally that we would be unwise to give up at this stage the concept of losing a veto over a statutory instrument, rare though its operation is, because we do not yet have the reassurance that we would need that the Government on their own side would be responsible for changing the ways in which legislation is drawn up in order to enable this House to continue to do its valuable and essential work, not only of scrutiny but, as I have tried to say more widely, a genuine commitment to the principles on which democracies depend.

I wish to say two other things before I conclude. A more appropriate approach would have been for the two Chambers’ Leaders to meet and discuss whether this matter could not have been handled much more responsibly and consensually. That would have been good not only for the House of Lords but immensely good for the House of Commons. It would have enabled us to say what the House of Commons’ responsibilities were in relation to any change in the current actions and powers of this House. To have the reassurance that we need, that means that they would properly respond to the new responsibilities vested upon them. However, some of recent history does not suggest that one can be sure of that.

I have great sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, had to say about the way that this issue should have been handled more properly—not by the Government, despite the brave attempts of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to find a sensible and thoughtful response, but rather through the parliamentary system and our constitutional structures. I would advocate strongly that we do not in future allow any Government of any colour to determine what should be the powers of this House.

EU Council

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 23rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Our approach to Syria has been consistent throughout—certainly with regard to the threat of ISIL, which we have to ensure is tackled at source. As the noble Lord knows, we have a significant commitment to the effort focused on Iraq. Clearly, we are not supporting the effort in Syria militarily, but we are doing a huge amount by way of humanitarian aid, and that will continue.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

My Lords, as my noble friend will know, in the past few days there has been a dramatic further fall in the value of the Ukrainian currency, the hryvnia, against the dollar. It has fallen by more than a third and is now about half its value only a few weeks ago. Given that, and given that there is a real prospect that the Ukrainian economy could break down, can she tell us whether there was discussion at the Council about the state of Ukrainian economy, the rising debts it has, especially in energy, and what emergency action might be taken by the European Union in the event that the hryvnia becomes an unacceptable currency?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can tell my noble friend that the IMF agreed in principle on 12 February that Ukraine qualified for an extended fund facility. That is a four-year programme worth $17.5 billion. We are clearly supporting the Ukrainian Government in delivering the reforms that they have committed to under the association agreement and the IMF programme, so that they are in a strong position to use that support from the IMF and get themselves on a secure footing for the future.

European Council and Nuclear Security Summit

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I accept the force of what the noble Lord says, and as I said in my reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, so far as Georgia and Moldova are concerned, one of the ways in which we are seeking to take that forward and accelerate it is by bringing forward the signing of the accession agreements. I very much take the noble Lord’s point and we need to address that in every way we can.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

May I ask the Minister two quick questions? First, with regard to the Nuclear Security Summit, can he say whether there is any movement forward whatever in the negotiations on the Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty? Clearly that is a crucial part of controlling nuclear materials—where they go and so forth. Secondly, on the issue of the rather more generous procedure that we have adopted towards giving visas—particularly for people who are interested in doing business in this country—will the Home Office take a very careful look at those visas if they are being offered to Russians, to make sure that they are not Russians who have supported the things that the Russian Government have recently done?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the second point, I am sure I can give that undertaking in the sense that clearly the Government want to make sure that whoever ends up being on their list of those proscribed under the travel bans or has their visa turned down, that is an appropriate list and we will consider all the people who might potentially be on it. I do not think that the last word on this subject has yet been spoken, so I take that point.

On my noble friend’s first point about the detail and progress the Bill has made in the Hague on nuclear matters, I will need to talk to brainier people than me to find out whether the specific point she raised was indeed covered and whether any progress was made there. As I understand it, the main focus of the discussions was on seeking to take further steps in tackling potential terrorism threats. I will follow up that point and perhaps we can have a word once I have written to the noble Baroness.

Nelson Mandela

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 9th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

My Lords, in 1990 I was in South Africa with my husband, doing something that Mandela had asked others to do, namely beginning the training of young Africans to fill places in the civil service, which they would have to do almost immediately if there was truly to be a rainbow nation and truly to be a South Africa that both administratively and politically represented all the peoples of that great republic.

We were in South Africa at the time Mandela came out of prison. I remember watching the march as he removed himself from the terrible, hellish place in which he had been, and recognising that there was the sense that day that the sun had risen over South Africa—a wonderful moment. I would like also to pay great tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, who was indeed a crucial part of the construction of a democratic South Africa.

One other thing which is important is that one of the very closest friends that Nelson Mandela had was the famous white South African, Helen Suzman. I mention her because he was extremely close to her and because some of us remember two things. First, there was never a month that passed in which she did not visit Nelson Mandela on Robben Island, against all the opposition that the Administration of white South Africa could produce. Secondly, and at least as importantly, we should remember on this occasion that from 1961 to 1974—13 bitter years—Helen Suzman was the only opponent in that Parliament of every aspect of apartheid. That meant that she was spurned, abused and, in some cases, threatened. Yet, day after day, her courage did not fail and she matched that of her dear friend and much beloved leader, Nelson Mandela. So on this occasion, as we celebrate that great man, I hope that we will celebrate also those men and women of all races who had the courage and strength to support him in what he did and who will be, in many ways, part of his lasting memorial.

Israel and Palestine

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord for his words. Of course, irrespective of the colour of its Administration, over the years the UK has been consistent in ensuring that we require a two-state solution, which, as he said, secures the borders of Israel in a secure way and ensures that the Palestinians have a viable state. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that there is no greater global priority for the UK than the search for peace in the Middle East. Let me assure the noble Lord that Britain is working intensively to support all parties in their efforts to achieve a negotiated end to this conflict, which has gone on for far too long.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

While it is very welcome that 26 of the Palestinians internees have been released, there are still many thousands of Palestinians in prison. Does the Minister agree that further steps to release yet more prisoners and perhaps, equally importantly, a pause in the settlement policy, at least while the negotiations are continuing, would be very welcome steps towards the outcome we all want to see?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises two very important points. I reassure her and the whole House that the Government believe that any steps taken by both sides to encourage the peace process are welcome. I state once again that the UK Government retain their position that the settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank are classified as illegal and do not help in the process for peace.

Press Regulation

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords—

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, we should hear from the Cross Benches.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I obviously cannot pre-empt what the committee is going to say, but it is fair to say that in the other place last week the Prime Minister said that there were serious shortcomings in the PressBoF charter.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

Does the Minister agree, however, that an agreement between all the parties in Parliament is an extremely important step towards asserting the powers and influence of Parliament? Is it not important that the public know what has just been raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, the former Lord Chancellor, that members of the Privy Council will not be all the members or even a selection of members of the Privy Council? I have written to the secretary of the Privy Council as a privy counsellor to ask whether he would consider widening the terms of those taking part. This will be a government decision rather than a Privy Council one.

Iraq: Chilcot Inquiry

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand that point. However, with some of these very big inquiries it is difficult to be absolutely clear at the outset about what a suitable length of time is. It is right that the Chilcot inquiry on Iraq has been able to follow the leads that it feels it needs to follow, and had the time to do that. On the more general point about inquiries, I am sure the noble and learned Lord will know that one of the post-legislative committees that this House will set up in the new Session will look at the operation of the Inquiries Act 2005 and ask exactly these kinds of questions about whether we can learn lessons about the conduct of these inquiries, whether they can be done more quickly, their cost and so on.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I was one of those in this House who was perhaps most extensively and intensively involved in the whole of the Iraq issue—the invasion of Iraq and the situations that arose from the post-victory occasions, including the involvement of many contractors in the building up or otherwise of Iraq after the war. While I fully take the points made by the Leader of the House into careful account, it is also the case that the lessons to be learnt from an inquiry—and the lessons to be learnt from this are probably among the most important of all—depend a little on the passage of time between the findings of that inquiry and the use of those lessons to affect policy. I ask him to bear in mind, as he considers this, the gap between the necessary and right attempt to give people the right to respond, but also the importance of the conclusions for the future work of this Government’s policy as well as the policy of the Opposition.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with the points my noble friend makes. To be clear, the timing of this inquiry is set by the inquiry itself. The Government have not set a timetable and we are not seeking to rush it. It must take the time. However, I take the point that we need to learn the lessons and that it has to be within a reasonable timeframe.

Death of a Member: Baroness Thatcher

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wakeham]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Wakeham!

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[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. I had a very long association with Mrs Thatcher and begin by associating myself with the regrets and the very considerable concern we all have for her family. In that context, I include her grandchildren as well as her son and daughter.

Mrs Thatcher and I followed one another at Somerville College, Oxford. She became the first woman president, I think, of the Oxford University Conservative Association, and I came, nearly five years later, to be the first woman leader of the Oxford University Labour Club. Somerville was the cradle for Prime Ministers, including Mrs Gandhi, and it very much embodied and understood Mrs Thatcher, who, above all—this is the first serious point I want to make—had the most incredible single-mindedness, determination, dedication and self-discipline. I do not think in my entire political life that I have ever met anybody who combined those four qualities in the way that she did. From the very beginning, she knew what she wanted to be and what she wanted to do, and managed to overcome virtually every obstacle one can think of.

So far in the speeches that we have heard, including the very moving one from the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, we have not heard quite enough about the extraordinary patriarchal nature of British politics in the 1960s and 1970s. It was not easy to put yourself forward as leader of the party or, later, as a Prime Minister in those days. Our society was still a deeply masculine one, where any woman who stood up opened herself to patronage, to the assumption that she was of a second level of intellect and to all the rest that went with that. It is important to say—hopefully with respect but with some memory of what things were really like —that, for example, the then Prime Minister, Mr Heath, was clearly not too happy to have that particular woman in his Cabinet and rather cleverly seated her five seats away from him, so that she could not be seen if she got up and tried to speak. We remember that she had an extraordinary capacity to overcome—and even not notice in some ways—the objections that were raised to her as a woman. The assumption when Airey Neave took over her campaign for the leadership was that she would be most unlikely, on those grounds, ever to succeed.

In that context it is perhaps worth my telling one anecdote. According to Sir Denis Thatcher, at one stage he was sitting at home in Flood Street while Mrs Thatcher was ironing his shirts, which she was very keen on doing, and getting breakfast. She said, in a sort of rather casual way, “Denis, I am thinking of running for the leadership”. To which he responded, “Leadership of what, Margaret?”. That somehow sums up the wonderful balanced detachment and humour of Sir Denis. I cannot underline too strongly the extent to which I think Mrs Thatcher began to lose her life when he passed away. He was absolutely central and key to her whole personality and her ability to become what she was.

The second, very important, thing that I want to stress is something mentioned by my noble friend Lord Ashdown, which is her astonishing courage. Many people, including not least of course the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, will recall the courage that she showed, and then sustained on their behalf, throughout the whole of the Brighton episode. Let us pause for a minute and notice the courage and daring that it took to take on the Falklands, 8,000 miles away, with the likelihood that we were going to be badly beaten. She knew that she had, in a sense, nothing to lose and everything to gain but it was still an extraordinary decision to make for a woman who was leading, to some extent at that point, a divided Cabinet.

I want to say one other thing. There is a great danger that we will sanctify Mrs Thatcher. She would not want that at all. She was always a great warrior. When she and I were in opposite positions—we were both Secretaries of State for Education, and sometimes opponents—she did not try to pretend that there was no difference between us. She loved it. She relished argument. She relished confrontation. She would not relish it now if this House failed to refer to that as an aspect of her personality and being.

There was another side to it, and I share the views of those who have expressed that. Her policies were terribly hard on the industrial north and Midlands. Her policies did not completely reflect the common ground that we were beginning to develop as a multicultural and multiracial nation. To me, that is an important part of what we are today.

It was interesting, however, that she was essentially a deeply pragmatic politician, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, pointed out. I will make two points on that. She never, ever, took on those things which were essentially, fundamentally accepted by the British people. She never attempted to roll back comprehensive education; she approved more comprehensive schools than I ever did. She never attempted to take on the National Health Service and turn it into a privatised service, because she knew where the British people stood and never forgot the reality of politics.

In conclusion, she was unquestionably one of the most remarkable Prime Ministers of her century, and in the world at that time. She also found it hard to get her mind around globalisation. Do not forget that she opposed, for example, the unification of Germany, which was key to the creation of a truly democratic Europe, west and east, in the period after the Cold War. We should not go too far in saying that she and Ronald Reagan brought that about; they made a major contribution, but there was of course somebody called Mikhail Gorbachev who showed astonishing courage in attempting to change the nature of the Soviet Union.

I do not want to take any more time up. There are many great speeches to be heard, and we have heard already some outstanding speeches. However, for courage, for single-mindedness and determination, there are few who matched Mrs Thatcher. History will certainly see her representation change in some ways—that always happens in history—but I do not think that she will ever be forgotten.

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[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, I think we owe a debt of gratitude to the staff who have turned up in the middle of their holidays. The food was warm and this place is as warm as it ever gets. Everything ran smoothly, as though it were a perfectly ordinary weekday event in the middle of the Session. We owe the staff a big debt of gratitude.

I had to speak today because I owe Margaret Thatcher everything. In 1980 she delivered her first Honours List. There were six men and me—rather like today.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Trumpington]

I was so lucky to come here and to have worked for her and with her, and fought with her. The fighting was part of the process. She liked to have something to fight against. It gave her ideas and helped her make up her mind later. I remember a poor man who sat between us at a dinner. I said, “The Daily Mirror is quite right about the mentally handicapped”. She said, “The Daily Mirror is never right”. That started us off. I think the poor man thought we were going to hit each other, and probably him, in the middle of the dinner. That was the way it was.

The alternative was the incredible kindness on one occasion when in terror I had to attend a full Cabinet meeting simply because my boss was unable to get there. I only had one remark, which was, “Professor So-and-So should get the job. The Department for Education agrees”. In terror I said it three times. I also had not had the opportunity to see how the Cabinet worked. It was quite a revelation. When the meeting was over and she was leaving, she came up to me, patted me on the shoulder and said: “I’ll see that your professor gets the job”. That was the way in which we operated. It was either death to the end or eternal friendship—and I know which I would choose. I send my very warmest sympathy to her family and say what a great loss it is to me personally and to all her friends and admirers, wherever they are.

I will say one more thing. It is curious that all the speakers today, apart from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, have been men, and none has commented on her beauty.

Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust Inquiry

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As I think I said in my earlier response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the registration of support workers is something that the Government will consider as part of their response to the Francis recommendations. We need to have well trained staff at all levels.

On the noble Baroness’s other point about ratios, I am sure that my colleagues in the Department of Health will reflect on what she said. Ultimately, decisions about staffing levels and so on need to be made locally, but I know that as part of this whole debate the department will be thinking in every way it can to try to make sure that all these sensible points are acted upon.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, like many others, I am sure the House would like to ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House to pass on our appreciation of the very restrained and moving Statement by the Prime Minister which in many ways reflects his own experience of the National Health Service in respect of his son, which I shared in respect of the death last year in an NHS hospital of my son-in-law. One could not have asked for better treatment.

In some ways, the tragedy of Mid Staffs is precisely that it is one of the few things that have lowered trust in the NHS, and that is a very serious outcome. The many relatives who waited for month after month and year after year for some kind of justice—there are echoes of Hillsborough in that—felt that they were not being listened to, despite the agony that they were going through.

Let me very quickly say just a word about accountability. My only criticism of the Francis report, although I have not had the opportunity to read every word of it, revolves around that word “accountability”. Accountability has to go to the very top. It cannot stop half way. I need to say quite loudly that two gentlemen have something to answer for, if only to comment on the recommendations and see if they meet the difficulties that have arisen in Mid Staffs. The first is Sir David Nicholson, the chief executive of the NHS Commissioning Board, who was present in a very senior capacity. I am not trying to blame him, but to say that I think his advice on how to avoid what happened then would be very valuable. The other person was Secretary of State in the last year of the period which the Francis report covers and is the right honourable Mr Andrew Burnham. Many of us—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think we should hear from the Minister.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

Many of us during the course of the debate were obliged to listen to a very great deal of what I might call Twitter propaganda, and I think it is only fair to say that Mr Burnham has a responsibility to respond to this report.

[A noble Lord]

Too long!

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I am going to continue, so noble Lords had better get used to it.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think the sense of the House is that we would like to hear from the noble Lord the Leader of the House.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I shall complete my remarks.

[Noble Lords]

Order!

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Baroness Williams of Crosby: I have much to comment about on this front, and I am going to finish my sentence. We all need to be responsible and accountable for making sure that no Mid Staffs ever happens again. That means that we may not pass the burden of responsibility to and fro. We all have to accept our common responsibility, and if that means abandoning party statements, so much the better.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree about the theme, which I think we have all accepted, that there is a common responsibility. One of the themes of the report is that we should not seek to single out individuals or particular organisations for risk of not seeing the bigger picture which, as my noble friend said, is that there is a common responsibility.

European Council

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House recognise the huge damage done to Britain’s influence and reputation far beyond the European continent, as any reading of recent journals in the United States or, for that matter, in Russia indicates very clearly? Would he agree that, in the negotiating document that was put to the 26 by the Prime Minister, there were a number of issues that were already on the way to being resolved in ECOFIN, and some of them had already been resolved in ECOFIN 2009? Would he also agree that there were some issues that related to unanimous votes like the financial transfer tax, and therefore there was no threat to British interests? Finally, going back to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Ashdown, I ask whether the Prime Minister and the Government will now recognise fully the need to make a gesture towards the crucial importance of saving the eurozone, which is in our interests as much as in theirs, by making clear that the European institutions will not in any way be blocked from being part of the outcome of that difficult decision?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I really do not believe that Britain’s influence or reputation have been affected in any way negatively by what was done at the end of last week. If anything, they have been enhanced. A British Prime Minister laid out very carefully what he was going to do to protect British vital interests. He went and negotiated, and when he could not get what he believed was right, he said, “I am not going to agree”. That is a position of courage, and he was absolutely right to make that decision.

On the question of the institutions of the EU, which I know are of great interest to many Members of this House, at this stage it is too early to take a view of what is proposed or all the detail of what is meant and what EU institutions are going to be asked to do at what stage. We will look very carefully at these proposals as they come out.