Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Baroness Williams of Crosby Excerpts

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 14B, and my learned—not my learned—

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

My brilliant friend—

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My—admirable and brilliant—noble friend Lady Williams is a co-signatory to that amendment and is going to speak to Amendment 14D. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth, who unfortunately cannot be here, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, who is indeed here, also have their names to these amendments.

First, I thank the Minister again for the way in which he has tried to deal with the very many comments and complaints about the Bill. Major advances have been made. The most important, on which this amendment touches but does not major, is the agreement that there must be an affirmative resolution by both Houses before the guidance can take effect. That is a very important concession.

Amendment 14B deals with the preparatory work for the debate which will ensue when the resolution is put to this House and to the other House to bring the guidance into effect. What we say and what Amendment 14B provides is that there cannot be the debate on the affirmative resolution to bring the guidance into effect until at least 28 days after the Government have laid a report before both Houses containing what we would say is essential information in order for both Houses to be fully prepared to debate to best effect the guidance and whether to bring it into effect. We call this a common-sense measure.

The first thing to say is that it is abundantly clear that Part 5 has had very little coverage beyond this place. We heard earlier from the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, that the Cambridge colleges have only just woken up to Part 5 and the potential impact on them, and how they are all now riding very high horses, but very late in the day. Indeed, I have discovered exactly the same position in other parts of the university fraternity. There has been extraordinarily little media coverage of this extraordinarily important set of provisions. As a result, there is not, as one would have expected, the head of steam behind the reforms proposed from all round the House and intended to impact on the effect of Part 5 of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for moving this amendment and giving the opportunity to put one or two additional points on record. This amendment would not permit guidance to be issued to universities until a report had been laid before Parliament setting out the impact of—

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I apologise to the Minister but I was not aware that he was going to respond to the amendment now, which would rule out Amendment 14D to which I wished to speak. I turn to that amendment briefly to explain the point of it. It looks a very small amendment but it is a rather serious one.

Amendment 14D relates to those with whom the Secretary of State would consult in advance of putting out the various kinds of guidance, which has already been dealt with to some extent by the Minister in his very helpful amendment requiring an affirmative procedure by Parliament. That meets one of my major concerns, which is the involvement of Parliament in every way and at every stage of the Bill. That is absolutely crucial, especially given the scale of the challenge that the Minister on more than one occasion told us we must meet. The solidarity of Parliament in dealing with these issues is crucial.

Let me explain why I put down this amendment. It was for the very simple reason that absolutely nowhere in the Bill that I can find is there any requirement of any kind to consult the age group that we are most concerned about. There is absolutely none. There are no references to student organisations, youth organisations or for that matter young people at all. Yet I think many of us recognise—I will in just a moment give an example of this—that the most effective force to persuade young people to abandon any thoughts of terrorism is other young people. Statements by senior officials, however senior they may be, cut nothing like the ice and have nothing like the persuasive power as other young people who see the devastating effects of terrorism and bring those to the attention of their friends and colleagues.

One of the things I regret is that the statutory requirement that students should be represented on university bodies which we brought in with the Education (No. 2) Act 1968 was abandoned by the then Government in 1987, so there is no requirement of that kind any more in law. One of the great advantages of requiring that students be represented on, for example, university courts and academic panels was precisely that they were then brought into the operation of the university itself, and into its responsibilities and its authority. That became an important and significant factor in dealing with what one might call young extremism.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

I am conscious that we are rehearsing arguments from the previous debate. Our argument, in fairness, is that they have not seen the guidance because people have not actually seen the guidance, which has not been published following the consultation. It will be informed by the debate that we have had.

Our hope and desire, though, is that this is very light-touch. It deals with what most, or many, academic institutions are already doing; it links in with their existing programmes for how computers are used on campus or in the library. It builds on that rather than trying to build some new bureaucratic edifice, which in our view is not necessary.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I am a little worried because the argument is moving towards the costs of bureaucratic reviews and so forth, and away from the central point that I believe to be critical for any chance of success in what the Government are trying to do: the formal involvement of young people. At the moment, and I hope my noble friend will forgive me for putting it this way, there is nothing in the Bill requiring universities to formally discuss with their own students how they handle the requests and guidance from the Government.

[Lord Bates]

Of course there is nothing in the Bill to say, stipulate or prescribe that, but there is nothing to stop it. I would have expected, although I am happy to reflect further on this—perhaps we should reflect further on these comments in the guidance when it comes forward—most higher and further education institutions to engage with the student body, particularly student associations, about how this should be implemented on their campuses in order for it to be effective, and not to be onerous but to be very targeted. That would be a very good thing to do.

I am conscious also that I was drifting in the direction of Amendment 14B from the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, rather than the noble Baroness’s Amendment 14D. Still, this has been a helpful debate to have; it has elucidated some important principles about the engagement of young people, and about ensuring that the costs and the impact of the duty and the guidance—when it is produced—should be evaluated and should be in the spirit of what is intended, which is to be light-touch, not onerous, and to be focused on what Clause 25(1) says about avoiding people being drawn into terrorism specifically. With that, I ask my noble friend to consider withdrawing his amendment at this stage.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

14D: Clause 28, page 19, line 6, at end insert—
“(ba) qualifying institutions within the meaning given in section 11 of the Higher Education Act 2004 (qualifying institutions) and their student bodies;”

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I have a very simple and totally inexpensive proposal, which is that in issuing the guidance the Secretary of State will make plain that he or she expects a university to consult its students before deciding to agree to accept the guidance that is then issued.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I am happy to put this point on the record without further reflection. I believe that best practice should be that academic institutions should engage properly with students on how this Prevent guidance to have due regard to the guidance is going to be implemented. As we will discover in the next group, the guidance will come through an affirmative procedure in both Houses. I will reflect further on the noble Baroness’s comments ahead of that and make sure that her remarks are considered by the Secretary of State.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

In the light of that helpful response, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 14D withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, if the Minister is not prepared to accept Amendment 15B, can he assure the House that a direction that has been issued would be subject to judicial review and, in the consideration of the judicial review, that the court would bear very much in mind whether a proper opportunity had been given to the university concerned to consider the complaint and to make representations about it? If that were an assurance from the Dispatch Box, I think that the amendment would no longer be necessary.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I have one short point, which has not been raised before, to add to this part of the debate. We now have in this country approaching 100,000 overseas students, a high proportion of whom—about one-third—come from China. A directive from a Minister to a university, as perceived by an overseas student from China, would be very close to being a government censure on that university. The amendment moved by my noble friend at least gives an opportunity for a university to set out why it has refused to take the action that the Secretary of State has enjoined it to, and to explain whether this is a relatively minor aberration or a serious defiance of the directions that the university has been given. That really could be quite important in terms of the attraction to students coming from overseas countries, especially those that have—shall we put it like this?—rather coercive Governments.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been an interesting debate. I particularly want to look at Amendments 15A and 15C in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister, Lady O’Loan, Lady Buscombe and Lady Kennedy. This seems to be very similar to the debate we had earlier, and to the ones we had last week and at Second Reading, about how we define academic freedom and freedom of speech. My impression from listening to what the Minister has had to say in responding and from what I think he intended by his amendment—my noble friend Lady Lister made this point—is that this is about looking at those things together, as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I think, made the point that he took the Minister’s amendment—Amendment 15D—to incorporate academic freedom as well as freedom of speech. So our discussion here, in some ways, is not about the principle—I think the Minister has made clear his view on the principle of this—but about making sure that the detailed legislation is correct.

I must say that I do not agree with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, about what the consequences of that could be. I do not think it would prevent a discussion of the origins of the Troubles in Northern Ireland or that it would have those dire consequences. However, the perception among some academics that it may do is quite worrying.