Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, the rights to information are another good example of the positive change that this House made in the passage of the Bill. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and Baroness Hollis, for making that argument so persuasively. I am very grateful to my noble friend the Minister and my right honourable friend the Minister of State, Caroline Dinenage, for responding.

I completely understand the desire to create—if I can borrow a bit of terminology—a backstop for why these sorts of cases ought to be considered. It is very easy to see how in practice when perhaps a small institution is caring for people with complex needs, the definition of “practicable” could stretch over time because of urgent or important responsibilities. There is a risk that, without some kind of backstop or time limit, this is too vague. However, I have a big problem with having an arbitrary time limit. I know that the noble Baroness is not attached to any particular time, but any time is by definition arbitrary.

My concern is that if this is in primary legislation it could lead to rushed or poor record keeping if it is not, for example, possible to conclude the review, assemble all the relevant pieces of information and provide that in a readable form—bearing in mind that is not going to be just straight English language for everybody—to the appropriate person, the IMCA, and so on. We should particularly bear in mind that an appropriate person could be somebody appointed by the cared-for person who resides in another country. So there are complexities at the edge of these kinds of cases that mean that if an arbitrary limit—which any limit would be—is set out in primary legislation, it could mean that as institutions bump up against it, they just rush to get the job done rather than making sure that they take care to do the highest-quality piece of work. That is my fear, although maybe other noble Lords do not share it.

I take the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, made about whether or not—in her view, not—the guidance is the place to do it. It seems to me that it is the right place to do it, because we had not defined “practicable” and “appropriate” before. We can now derive some examples of what that would and ought to look like in normal cases, but also in edge cases. I have listened very carefully to the argument—as noble Lords know, my attitude throughout has been to listen and make sure that we can improve this Bill. However, I have concerns about putting an arbitrary limit in, for the reasons that I have set out. I hope my noble friend, as she has been asked to do by my noble friend Lady Browning, will be able to explain things to us in a bit more detail—and give us a flavour of how the statutory guidance would provide that kind of detail—to provide reassurance to noble Lords that this is not just a boundless commitment that does not have some teeth.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendment on this very important matter in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, is fully supported on these Benches. The Minister knows the strength of feeling of support in the House to ensure that the cared-for person, or their carer, relative, friend or other person advocating on their behalf, is fully informed about their rights at the start of the LPS authorisation process. The amendment, carried by a substantial majority, was very clear on this issue. That information should be provided up front to families as a matter of course—information not only about the process, but importantly, their rights to advocacy and to challenge—in an accessible format that they can understand.

The provision in Amendment 25 of a statutory duty for information to be provided “as soon as practicable” does not ensure that this essential up-front requirement for information is met. One of the excellent briefings on this matter from Mencap states:

“Families’ carers have consistently fed back to us that the lack of information up-front meant that they didn’t know what was happening, that it was a process done to them and their loved one, and that set in motion misunderstandings, mistrust and instances of an appeal which could have been avoided had information been provided and explained at the beginning”.


Mencap’s concern is that the “as soon as practicable” provision could mean a system working on the timescales of the responsible body, rather than of the individual body and the families. That is our concern, too.

Amendment 25A addresses these concerns and ensures that the loophole in the Government’s amendment is addressed by requiring a record of the decision and justification to be kept where it has not been practicable to provide that up-front information about the decision to commence authorising arrangements under subsection (1). It also provides a necessary timeframe. We have heard that the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, is not wedded to 72 hours, but it is important to have a timeframe within which, if a copy of the authorisation record has not been provided, there must be a review of whether the lack of information provision was appropriate. The requirement would provide the necessary safeguard for the cared-for person, and the hard- pressed staff, by facilitating routine record keeping and accountability for the decisions made. The noble Baroness pointed out some very explicit examples of the type of record that needs to be kept; it would not be onerous.

We are in a strange position, which we are slowly getting used to, of having the ex-Minister reassuring the House from the Government Benches that everything he promised has been delivered—before the Minister speaks. Amendment 25A highlights a significant loophole that needs to be addressed and I hope that the Government will accept it. We accept that the Government’s intention is to provide the information needed, and as soon as possible, but the amendment is necessary to reassure that “as soon as practicable” is not as open-ended as it can so often turn out to be.

Brexit: Health and Social Care Workforce

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, Brexit and the Health & Social Care Workforce in the UK, published on 6 November.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are determined to recruit and retain the staff that the health and social care sectors need. This will include a robust domestic recruitment drive as well as ensuring that EU staff, who play such an important role in caring for and supporting patients, are able to stay in this country. That is why on Monday 3 December, we launched the EU settlement scheme pilot for the EU workforce in health and social care.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. The Cavendish report on the current and potential staff shortages across all the key health and social care professions makes for alarming reading and shows how dependent we are on the work and dedication of EU nationals. I want to focus on social care workers. What is the Minister’s response to the Government’s Migration Advisory Committee, which says that these vital staff fall into the category of “low-skilled” and therefore do not merit preferential rights here in any post-Brexit scenario? In the past he has acknowledged the skilled, caring jobs that these staff do in community services, people’s homes, nursing homes and care homes. Does he agree that they are definitely not low-skilled? What is he doing to convince the MAC otherwise? What is the strategy for recruiting the 130,000 new social care workers that we need each year just to stand still, let alone to address the future demands of the service?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. First, we want to ensure that EU staff working in Britain are able to do so, and course that is why the EU settlement scheme pilot is so important. The social care workforce in this country has increased a lot, with a mixture of domestic and foreign staff. One of the ways in which we are increasing the attractiveness of that profession is by increasing the living wage, which has benefited so many staff in social care. Of course, many of them are highly skilled, and we want to ensure that we continue to be able to attract such skilled staff. We continue to discuss with the Home Office exactly what the right thresholds are for our future immigration system so that we do not lose out on these kinds of staff.

Diesel Emissions

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 5th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness that this is an issue of concern. It is a concern to all of us and it is certainly a concern to those of us with school-age children in urban areas, who experience the pollution every day. First, the UK has made progress on reducing pollutants, although clearly there is a long way to go, and in specific urban areas the problem is much worse than in others. Secondly, I point the noble Baroness to the clean air strategy, which will be published at the end of this year. It will contain a range of measures aimed at reducing pollution and, as a consequence, the public health damage that comes from it. I shall certainly feed in her comments about the importance of targeting these benefits on schools.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, earlier this year the World Health Organization Science Panel reclassified diesel exhaust as a carcinogen, underlining that many cases of lung cancer could be connected to the contaminant and that exhaust could become as important a public health hazard as passive smoking. The European Public Health Alliance has pointed to the urgent need to develop research into the possible impact on other health conditions such as diabetes and dementia. Can the Minister tell the House what action is being taken in response to the WHO declaration and what research funding and programmes are in place to address the growing concerns on this issue?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right: it is one of the biggest public health problems that we face. It is associated with around 30,000 deaths a year, and that gives us a sense of the scale of the problem. I mentioned the clean air strategy but two specific important pieces of research are also taking place. One is called the Exploration of Health and Lungs in the Environment, which is a London-based study looking at the links between pollution and children’s lung health. The Department of Health and Social Care has also commissioned a review of adverse birth outcomes and early-life effects associated with exposure to air pollution. Therefore, we take this problem seriously and are commissioning research to know not only the consequences but what to do about it.

Health: Stroke

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 14th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in developing a national plan for stroke.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, a stroke programme board was established in March 2018, co-chaired by NHS England’s national medical director, Professor Stephen Powis, and the CEO of the Stroke Association, Juliet Bouverie. Following this, the NHS long-term plan will include a focus on cardiovascular disease and stroke, and is set to be published before the end of this year.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. While the promise of including the national stroke plan in the full NHS long-term plan is welcome, nevertheless publishing it in its own entity after the national strategy ran out last year would surely have helped to sustain the progress and momentum since 2010, particularly in the reconfiguration of stroke services. Instead, thousands of stroke survivors say that they feel abandoned after they come out of hospital: 70% of patients are not offered a personalised care plan for their ongoing treatment, care and support; only 30% of CCGs are commissioning the vital six-month reviews of their progress and problems; one in four hospitals does not have access to stroke specialist early supported discharge at home; and, on average, stroke survivors wait 10 weeks for urgent psychological support. What action are the Government taking to ensure that CCGs tackle these problems now?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I understand the noble Baroness’s frustration about the gap between the strategy and the plan but it was right to include the work undertaken on the stroke plan within a long-term plan, because clearly that covers every aspect of how the NHS is working. In the meantime, I point out to her that the NHS RightCare programme for cardiovascular disease has been set up. It is aimed specifically at dealing with some of the variation in service that she talked about. But there is good news in stroke care: not only is there less incidence than 10 years ago but 30-day mortality rates have more than halved, so there is progress which we need to build on.

If the noble Baroness and the House will allow me, I would like to use this opportunity to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale, who died very recently. He was a predecessor in this role and a great champion of stroke care, both as a Minister and as chair of the Stroke Association for 10 years. I am sure that everyone in the House would offer their sincere condolences to his family and friends.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I do not know the specifics on psychology graduates; I will write to the noble Baroness. If the number of nurses in mental health nurse training at the moment comes through into the profession, there will be 8,000 more mental health nurses by 2020. I am sure we will be keen to recruit them from wherever we can.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, on the issue of 24/7 services, CQC evidence suggests that the number of children visiting A&E departments for mental health treatment has more than doubled since 2010. Earlier this year, a CQC review highlighted growing demand as children, young people, their families and carers find that they have to reach crisis point before they can get help. On top of this, the recent FOI response to the BBC’s “Panorama” programme showed that at least 1.5 million under-18s were estimated to be living in areas where there are no 24/7 child mental health services. What steps are the Government taking to join up services across health, education, local councils and the voluntary sector to ensure that these vital crisis and support services are available and funded?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I recognise that there is variability across the country. Indeed, waiting times vary, which is not acceptable. That is why a new four-week waiting time standard is being trialled as part of the Green Paper I mentioned. I should also point out that new, community-based eating disorder clinics are being set up so that people do not have to go to an A&E environment and can access something that is better for them, frankly, both more easily and locally.

Personal Social Care: Funding

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 16th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report by Independent Age, A Taxing Question: How to fund free personal social care, published in September.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government welcome and recognise the contribution of Independent Age and other stakeholders to the important debate around social care reform. The Green Paper that is to be published later in the year will set out proposals for a sustainable social care system that strikes a fair balance between what the state and individuals pay. Reforms must be affordable and fair across the generations, including to working-age taxpayers.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. The report sums it up when it says that,

“today … accessing such support has become a game of chance: based on where you live, your social class, and your ability to pay”,

all of which was echoed in last week’s CQC state of care report, which also made it clear that any future extra funding for the NHS will just be wasted and swallowed up treating people in hospital unless there is a similar major cash injection for social care. Will the Minister confirm that all the options set out for future social care funding in the Independent Age report, particularly the strong case made for free personal social care and support for older people, are under active consideration in the social care Green Paper? How are the proposed 10-year NHS plan and the Green Paper joined together to deal with the integration lottery and fragmented care that the CQC’s local systems reviews have highlighted?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising this important issue. She is quite right that extra funding is needed, which is why we have pledged £20 billion extra for the NHS and want to get this long-term funding settlement for social care. There are many proposals in the Independent Age document—nine, I think—and we are looking at a range of different options. As I said, there needs to be a fair balance between those who are working today and those who need care today, an issue that has evaded a number of Governments and which we sincerely hope to solve. On how the two plans will work together, the intention is that the long-term plan and the Green Paper will be published together around the same time and will therefore be complementary in trying to achieve the goal of integrated health and care.

Adult Social Care

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. I know that she speaks from great experience. We have some good working practices now, through the better care fund, between health commissioners and local government, which is an essential part in making sure we have a sustainable system.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

Will the Minister reassure the House that the Green Paper will address the parity of esteem between mental and physical health in terms of eligibility for social care support at home? Although there is serious concern that many people suffering debilitating mental illness, particularly depression, are not receiving the basic social care support they need, it is very difficult to assess the national scale of the problem because of the very poor data on how the current eligibility criteria are applied in mental health support. How is this key issue being addressed?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I reassure the noble Baroness that it will be addressed. When we have the consultation, there will be more opportunity to explore that.

Hepatitis C

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

First, I applaud the noble Baroness for her work on this. We know that hepatitis C is a truly horrible disease that affects some of the most vulnerable people in our society, which is why we want to eliminate it. In terms of the NHS being geared up, we are on track to treat 70,000 people by 2020. We need to keep finding people, and, of course, they become harder and harder to find. She is quite right about the need to raise awareness. We are doing other things as well, such as reaching into hard-to-reach communities. To give one example, there is now a 100% opt-out testing offer for people entering the prison estate, which is one of the areas where hepatitis C tends to be transmitted. There is clearly a need to do more, but we are looking at how to reach those hard-to-reach communities.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

Can the Minister say a bit more about the steps the Government are taking to support the delivery of hepatitis C treatment in community settings, such as GP clinics, pharmacies, homeless shelters, substance misuse clinics and sexual health clinics? The King’s Fund estimates that spending on tackling drug misuse in adults has been cut by more than £22 million compared with last year, and funding for sexual health clinics by £30 million over the same period. How will the 2025 target for elimination of hepatitis C be met if vital education and work in these services, and the work they do in reducing reinfection rates, are not available?

NHS and Social Care Services: Parity of Esteem

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take to ensure that their strategy for National Health Service and social care services recognises the importance of parity of esteem, including pay and professional standing, for staff across hospital, community and social care settings.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy)]

My Lords, having the right number and quality of clinical and non-clinical staff is essential to realising our ambitions for the NHS, community and social care. Last week we agreed an Agenda for Change multi-year pay and contract deal, while the introduction of the national living wage has boosted pay for the social care workforce. Later this year, we will publish a 10-year integrated health and care workforce strategy informed by our recent consultations.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. It is right today to pay tribute fully to the work and dedication of staff across the whole of health and social care. But for the future, both the NAO and our own Long-term Sustainability of the NHS Committee strongly criticised the absence of any long-term joint strategy to secure the well-trained and committed workforce that we need for a fully integrated service. The Minister told the House on 18 June that he is considering the implications of the very recent and welcome NHS staff three-year pay increase for the independent care sector. He recognised the need for the latter to be able to compete on a “level playing field”. Does he acknowledge that for the social care sector in particular that means aiming to level-up pay and professional standing between social care and the NHS, and accepting that parity of esteem is one of the key drivers to building integrated services for both patients and service users?

Cannabis-based Medicines

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her question. Like her, I applaud the speed with which the Home Secretary and the Health Secretary have acted in this matter. It is incredibly important to think about the various stages and actions that have been taken. First, there is an urgent need for the panel which Professor Dame Sally Davies is setting to consider specific licence applications. The second part is to review whether there are therapeutic benefits of cannabis and cannabis-derived products. Then there is the evidence-gathering process, and all the relevant evidence, including the major piece of work done by the US National Academy of Sciences and the paper to be published by the WHO, will be collected as part of that. As the Home Secretary set out on Tuesday, it will make recommendations to the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs subsequent to proposals for rescheduling. That will happen this autumn, if those proposals come forward.

If I may just take the time to say this, the noble Baroness raises a third issue, which is long-term horizon scanning for Schedule 1 drugs for which a therapeutic benefit has not yet been demonstrated but which may be demonstrated in future. We clearly need to set up a device to do that, and the MHRA may be the right vehicle. That is something we are considering.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister update the House on the number of cases the expert panel is expected to consider? Assuming they are current cases, can we be reassured that they will be dealt with in a way that avoids the awful situation faced by Alfie Dingley and his parents and ensures they have the best possible medical treatment?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I completely agree with the noble Baroness about the need for speediness. Frankly, at this point we do not know the number of cases. The Home Secretary said on Tuesday that the service will be up and running and receiving applications within a week of his Statement—so from next Tuesday onwards, with a panel constituted rapidly so that it can start considering them.

Carers: Back Pay Liability

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for raising the issue, which we are looking into. The point here is that the change in policy has come about because of decisions made by employment tribunals and a clarification of the law, and the job of government is therefore to help providers to comply with the law. That is how the scheme has come about, and why extra support is being looked into. We are working closely with providers to try to understand the scale of the liability and how it affects organisations differently—we think that up to two-thirds are affected. We will also make sure that any intervention that might follow—I stress “might”—is proportionate, fair and legal.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, Jeremy Hunt told MPs last week that a lot of work was going on in government on this issue to,

“understand the fragility of the current market situation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/5/18; col. 520.]

However, we already know that the viability of nearly 70% of the disability care sector is threatened by the sleep-in pay crisis, as last week’s survey by disability charities shows. Homes will have to be sold or more local authority contracts handed back. Is this not enough evidence of the desperate state the care sector is in and why the extra funding is needed from the Government to ensure that already low-paid staff are treated fairly and receive the money they are owed?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes an important point about the attention my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is giving this. We are taking this issue seriously, and she is quite right about the number of organisations that are affected. As I said, a scheme already exists which allows providers to defer any payments, and we are investigating whether any further interventions are necessary during that period when they can defer them.

Domiciliary Home Care Support

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 25th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to ensure the provision of domiciliary home care support, in the light of the decision by Allied Healthcare to file for a company voluntary arrangement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the law is clear that, if services may be disrupted due to business failure, the Care Quality Commission will notify local authorities so that they can put appropriate contingency plans in place. In respect of Allied Healthcare, no such notification has been made to date. The public should be reassured that the Care Quality Commission has been monitoring closely the situation at Allied Healthcare and will continue to do so.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, Allied Healthcare is the latest hedge-fund-owned care provider to have to take drastic action to keep up the huge burden of paying off loans to its creditors. The precarious finances of many domiciliary care companies has already led to large-scale provider closures and to companies handing back contracts in almost half of councils, and we know that residential care is in a similar position. The CVA means that Allied Healthcare has four weeks to come to an arrangement with its creditors. Its closure would have serious consequences for continuity of care and the safety of its 13,500 clients, including many vulnerable older people and people with learning difficulties, and for its 8,700 staff. With local authorities unable to pay fees that cover the actual cost of care or meet the implementation costs of the national minimum wage, let alone address the potential £400 million of deserved back-pay costs for staff sleep-in payments, what reassurances can the Minister give that councils will be able to discharge their statutory duty to deliver care if Allied Healthcare collapses? Does he really think that this is the way to fund the care that people in need of support in their homes deserve?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for the opportunity to provide that reassurance for people using and benefiting from the care provided by Allied Healthcare. I want to reassure them that the Care Act 2014, passed by the coalition Government, gives local authorities responsibility for continuity of care if a business were to fail. Of course, we are not in that position with Allied Healthcare, because it still has to go through the CVA process. I can reassure people that the LGA has said that councils have “robust”—its word—plans in place to ensure continuity of care if that is required. I put that on record for those who may be worried about it.

We know that extra funding is needed in the sector. Over three years, through a number of means including extra money through the precept and direct funding to local authorities, the Government have increased by about £9 billion the funding available for social care, which we know is required. I also point out that, if you look at domiciliary care provider numbers, you will see that there are 50% more than there were eight years ago. We know that markets have entrants and that providers are exiting, but we have more providers in the market and more packages being delivered than ever before. Ultimately, the backstop is that local authorities have that responsibility to provide continuity of care.

Health: Online Services

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 23rd April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking in response to the Care Quality Commission’s report, The state of care in independent online primary health services, published on 23 March.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the online provision of primary care is a development with the potential to improve patient outcomes. However, it is important that these services are regulated and inspected properly. The CQC will continue to hold online providers to account while sharing good practice. Following its report, we are considering what further action is needed to ensure that the right balance is struck between the provision of safe, effective care and encouraging further innovation.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. We are strongly in favour of technologies and innovations that help to provide the widest possible access to primary health services, particularly when getting a timely GP appointment is so difficult for thousands of patients. The CQC inspection role is crucial but there is no disguising the serious issues to be addressed and resolved. These include checking patients’ identity, sharing information with the NHS GP and the safe prescribing of medicines. Some 43% of companies are failing to meet regulations for keeping patients safe and there are particular concerns about inappropriate prescribing of antibiotics and medicines and about managing long-term conditions. How will the Government ensure that the lessons from the first phase of the CQC inspection are learned, and will they pledge to take swift action on the problems now before the service is further rolled out?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising this important issue. She is right that the CQC report identified some serious issues among this group of online providers, which of course operate in the independent sector. She mentioned safety and safeguarding, and I would add to that. It is worth saying that there were some positive responses, in terms of 97% of the providers being caring and 90% of them responsive, so some strengths were identified as well as weaknesses. Obviously the CQC retains the ability to take regulatory action. As it sets out in the report, it has done so to ensure that standards improve, and in general they improve from one inspection to the next. However, this is of course the independent sector. We are looking at the lessons for the provision of NHS services. The biggest one of those that comes out of the report is around data sharing: to ensure a clear flow of data between an online provider and a GP, if they are different, so that any problems can be spotted early on. That is particularly important for safety.

HPV Vaccinations

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My noble friend makes an important point, that vaccinations against the HPV virus brings wider health benefits beyond defending against cervical cancers. It is important to state that it is not my judgment that matters here but that of our expert group, and in its interim advice it did not recommend an extension of the HPV programme to boys as being cost effective, not least because of the high levels of immunity and uptake among girls, with the indirect benefit that that has. But that was its interim advice; the final advice is being considered at the moment, and I can tell the House that that advice and the underlying assumptions on cost benefit will be published when the decision is made.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, last year’s interim statement referred to by the Minister mentions referring the issue of equality of access to the HPV vaccine to the Department of Health for consideration. Has that referral been made? Given that the clinical benefits of gender neutrality have been so widely advocated by top medics over a very long period, is the department treating this with urgency? When is a response expected, and has any legal advice been taken on whether the current situation of only directly protecting girls and gay men constitutes discrimination by gender or sexual orientation?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right that equality is an issue, and an equality analysis will take place. That can be completed only once we have the final advice from the joint committee. I can also promise her that we will publish that analysis, so that will be able to be scrutinised. As for legal advice, it is subject to threats of judicial review at the moment, so I cannot go any further than that, but I can promise that equality considerations are very high on the list of the issues that we are dealing with.

Health: Medical Respite for Children

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right. Many of the children we are talking about are receiving continuing care to meet all their needs, and delivering that is very complex. A national framework for continuing care is being revised at the moment, and it will provide the picture for the skills mix that is needed at local level to ensure that these children are properly served.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, my question is on the specific issue of parent carers, for whom funded respite care is vital to both themselves and the children they care for. The Minister mentioned the continuing healthcare framework guidance coming into force in October, which makes clear CCGs’ responsibilities to fund respite care for parent carers and breaks for families of severely disabled children. The High Court judgment clarifies the law and makes this duty clear now. What action have the Government taken to ensure that CCGs act on the Nascot Lawn judgment now?

NHS: Winter Funding

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 11th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, in the Autumn Budget, we allocated £337 million to be available immediately for trusts to use this winter. This package funded more hospital beds, community services, mental health services and urgent GP appointments to manage the expected surge in demand. After Easter, the NHS, as last year, will undertake a full review of this winter and identify any lessons for the future. We expect that that will include an assessment of the impact of this funding.

[Baroness Wheeler]

I thank the Minister for his response. He will have seen the BMA’s stark analysis of one week between Christmas and new year. In just those seven days, bed occupancy rose to 91.4%, 39 ambulances were diverted from A&Es that were too busy to cope, 731 beds were closed due to diarrhoea or vomiting, and by the end of the week, 3,400 escalation beds had to be opened because hospitals were full. Today’s figures and the warnings from NHS Providers tell the same sorry story. Does the Minister accept that announcing extra funding in November/December was far too late to prevent the worst period across the winter so far or the Government having to announce the bombshell of 550,000 cancelled operations? Can he also tell the House how the Prime Minister’s plan will now be revised to reflect these everyday realities and come up with the urgent action and funding that is needed to help the NHS cope with its worst winter crisis in two decades?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I would hope that the noble Baroness would welcome the money that was set aside in the Budget. It is important to point out that in addition to that £337 million, half of which has gone to support plans that were already in place and being actioned before the Budget, there was a further £100 million to support A&E streaming, which is also a way of taking pressure off emergency services. That has had an impact, so I do not accept the accusation that the money came too late, and indeed there is still money in the pot as services come under pressure.

As regards the future, the noble Baroness will know that it was also announced in the most recent Budget that another £2.8 billion would be allocated to the NHS to help it get through the next few years. We know that the pressures are increasing because of the ageing population. The idea of that money is precisely to help the NHS get back on target on A&E waits as well as referral to treatment.

Social Care

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 7th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for reading out the Statement in response to the October Labour Opposition debate on the social care funding crisis.

We are told that the Statement builds on the extra £2 billion over the next three years provided by the Government to “meet social care needs”. However, for the record, the Minister will know that independent think tanks such as the Nuffield Trust and the King’s Fund, care providers across the social care sector, voluntary organisations such as Age UK, and organisations representing the staff who deliver the services have all shown clearly the inadequacy of this sum to meet existing and rising demand and to address the funding crisis. Government cuts to local authority budgets have meant cuts to adult social care funding since 2010, which are set to reach £6.3 billion by March 2018. That is the scale of the funding gap that needs to be addressed, and we know that social care did not get even a mention in the Budget. Can the Minister explain to the House why such a key issue was left out?

On the Green Paper and the Government’s preparations for yet another round of consultation, the Minister will accept that this stop/start Green Paper has been a very long time coming, particularly when viewed in the light of the agreed Care Act provisions that were first promised for full implementation in 2016. On 16 November, the Minister told the House that a group of independent experts, including Andrew Dilnot and Kate Barker, would support government engagement with stakeholders. Today’s Statement says that these two are among a range of experts who will “provide their views”. An inter-ministerial group has also been set up. What role will these key experts—who have widespread respect and authority among key stakeholders —play in overseeing the review and consultation? Will they be involved at the heart of the review or will they just feed their views to Ministers?

The Minister will know that it is particularly upsetting for those of us who were involved in the painstaking work on the Care Act to be lectured again about how complex the issues are and on the need to “build consensus around reforms”. That consensus was part of the Care Act and the Government chose not to go ahead with it. We know, too, that they consulted on their proposed care “floor” during the general election; it was roundly rejected by the electorate, causing huge despair and consternation among the millions of disabled people and their carers struggling to cope. Meanwhile, many people are still faced with the catastrophic and rising costs of paying for care.

I mention carers specifically. The Minister is right to acknowledge that they are vital partners in the health and social care system, but the reality is that they have now been waiting nearly two years for the national carers strategy to be updated, refreshed or called to action, with promised deadlines being set back time after time. Last summer, carers were finally told that the strategy would be morphed into the end-of-the-year Green Paper. It was not a satisfactory situation, but carers organisations put huge effort and time into consulting with carers across the country to meet the deadline—only to then receive the announcement of the delay of the Green Paper to summer 2018.

Katy Styles, a carer and campaigner for the Motor Neurone Disease Association, contributed to that consultation and hoped that her voice would be heard. She said:

“Not publishing the National Carers Strategy has made me extremely angry. It sends a message that carers’ lives are unimportant. It sends a message that Government thinks we can carry on as we are. It sends a message that my own time is of little worth”.


We now have the promise of an action plan in the new year. Does the Minister acknowledge that he now has to be straight and play fair with carers and provide them with a date for the action plan? Can he be more specific about the scope and funding that will be allocated to the action plan?

Finally, Age UK estimates that there are 1.2 million people currently living with unmet care needs and that almost a quarter of all adult social care services receive the poorest safety rating from the Care Quality Commission. Can the Minister tell the House how the Statement will help people going without essential daily care, such as help with washing, dressing and toileting, to receive a better quality of care?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for her response and her questions; I will deal with them in order.

First, she asked about funding. She is quite right to point out the £2 billion of extra funding that was announced in the March Budget; of course, we have had two Budgets this year, so extra funding was included in a Budget this year. I should also point out that that was the latest tranche of additional funding, which totals over £9 billion over three years, taking into account the additional funding announced in recent financial Statements. The precise purpose of the funding is to address the fact that we have a growing and ageing population. The number of people requiring care packages is rising, and often the complexity of those packages is becoming more acute—hence the need for more funding, as we all recognise.

Experts will be fully engaged in the Green Paper, providing advice to Ministers and supporting engagement. There is no point in having such an august group and not drawing on their expertise. I do not think that there is any contradiction in the way that I have described their role. We would not want to involve those people—and they would not want to be involved—if they were not going to be listened to.

On carers, I acknowledge the delay in the carers strategy and I understand that that must be frustrating for those who have invested so much time in it. I have two things to say in response. First, it is right that the position of carers is considered in the round, with care costs. Secondly, that is why the action plan is important: it provides a staging post between now and the intention to introduce fully fledged policy proposals in due course. I am afraid that I do not have a specific date or a funding package for that, but I will write to the noble Baroness with as much detail as I can find and place a copy in the Library.

Social Care: Sleep-in Payments

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 7th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

It is not our position that they will not be funded. That is one of the options being explored at the moment. A huge amount of work is going on with providers and all parts of government. In the end, however, the Care Act 2014 means that local authorities have a responsibility to take on the commissioning of and, ultimately, provision for providers, if they are looking at exiting the market, to make sure there is proper and comprehensive provision in the local area.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, it is absolutely right that sleep-ins are defined as working time and therefore subject to payment of the national minimum wage. However, the Government’s November compliance scheme proposal not only failed to offer support for hard-pressed providers but also means that thousands of care workers, who are among the lowest paid in society, could be waiting until March 2019 to get paid what is owed to them. Does the Minister agree that these low-paid workers should not have to pay the price for the Government’s £6 billion cuts in social care or their failure to take action on addressing the social care funding crisis?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am grateful that the noble Baroness has raised the compliance scheme. For those providers that enter it, the scheme offers the opportunity to take 12 months for self-review and then report to HMRC, which will then allow a further three months for the providers to pay. That gives a 15-month leeway compared with the usual default enforcement period of 28 days. There is clearly a balance to be struck between the financial challenges posed to providers and the money that staff, rightly, need to take. I think that the compliance scheme provides that balance so that we can do it in a way that is sustainable.

Nurses: Tuition Fees

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The system that we have means that the people who benefit most from higher education are those who pay for their higher education and, in doing so, they subsidise those who go into the professions that my noble friend has mentioned, which are extremely worth while but might not be that well paid.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, the Health Foundation research has shown that the change in nurse training funding arrangements in England has led to a fall in student numbers, rather than the Government’s promised increase. One of the most alarming statistics shows a 31% shortfall in the number of applicants aged 30 and over, just the group with the background and experience the NHS needs, many of whom are care workers with hands-on experience wishing to develop their skills by becoming qualified nurses. Does the Minister agree that these are the very people whom nursing needs, but for whom taking on a huge debt, often at a time of heavy financial commitment, seems an impossible hurdle? Does this not all underline the need for urgent reinstatement of nurse bursaries?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I think that the figure on shortfalls that the noble Baroness has given is not right. If one looks at the UCAS data, it shows, as I said, a small drop of around 6%, but the numbers going into training are comparable to 2014-15. She is quite right about the need for additional financial support, and there is £1,000 available for childcare support for those who need it, as well as exceptional support funds of up to £3,000.

Mental Health Care: Vulnerable Children

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what actions they are taking to address the concerns raised by the Care Quality Commission in its review published in October about the particular difficulties faced by children and young people in vulnerable circumstances, such as looked-after children and those with learning disabilities, in accessing mental health care.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, improving children’s and young people’s mental health is a priority for the Government, especially for the most vulnerable. The Government welcome the CQC’s recent report in this area, which was commissioned by the Prime Minister in January. Government initiatives to improve the mental health of vulnerable children include piloting new approaches to the mental health assessments that looked-after children receive as part of their initial health assessment, and testing models for personal budget use for looked after children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. With the Green Paper promised before Christmas, I hope we will not have to wait until the next CQC review for the urgent action that is needed, given the scale of unmet need for mental health care among vulnerable children. Barnardo’s recent survey showed that one in four looked-after children faced a mental health crisis on leaving care, and yet nearly 65% of them did not receive any statutory support; and whilst in care, local factors such as a lack of permanent or settled placement can lead to support action being denied. On children with learning difficulties, in all my research for this Question I was truly alarmed at the lack of information that is available on the scale and problems of this vulnerable group of children. What action is the Minister taking to ensure that the CQC, Ofsted and, sadly, the police and probation inspectors combine their efforts to investigate this issue as closely as it deserves?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is right to highlight these disturbing facts about the mental health of looked-after children. Nearly 50% of looked-after children have a diagnosed mental health disorder, so that is what we are up against. In terms of how we are dealing with it, the increases in funding to raise the number of treatments that are taking place by 70,000 will obviously help vulnerable children, and there is the additional assessment that I have talked about. She asked particularly about children with learning difficulties. I am sure that she is aware of it, but I would point her and other noble Lords to the Lenehan review, which set out several recommendations, all of which the Government have adopted. One of the actions that stems from that includes new guidance from the Local Government Association and NHS England on commissioning mental health services for children with learning difficulties.

NHS: Deficit

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The Chancellor has confirmed that he will fund an Agenda for Change, as it is known, pay deal on the condition that the pay award enables improved NHS productivity and is justified on recruitment and retention grounds.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the number of GPs has fallen sharply over the past year, despite the government pledge to increase the supply of family doctors by 5,000 by 2020? How many more targets are likely to be missed by the Government? When did the NHS last achieve the A&E 95% target or the 92% 18-week treatment target? What will the actual impact of today’s funding announcements be on the Government’s performance on these key targets and their ability to ensure that planned improvements in priority areas of care such as cancer and mental health will not be stopped, as Simon Stevens has warned?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness has pointed out the disappointing numbers as regards GPs. I should point out that there has been an increase in training places for future years. It is critical that we deliver those places and bring more staff into the service. I am glad that she drew attention to where the additional funding will go. There will be £340 million to help the NHS through this winter, £1.6 billion of additional revenue in 2018-19 and £900 million in 2019-20. That is precisely, as the Budget pointed out, to improve A&E waits, turn waiting list growth around and improve performance against the RTT targets.

Health: Flu

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what preparations are being made to deal with the anticipated rise in flu cases this winter.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, it is too early to predict the impact of flu this winter. As part of the Government’s preparedness, every trust has developed plans for the coming winter season. The seasonal flu vaccination has been offered to those at particular risk of flu, and to all health and social care workers. A nasal spray vaccine will be offered to all children aged two to eight years old to help to protect them and their families.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. Last week’s Healthwatch report showed an alarming increase in the number of hospital readmissions, which have risen by nearly a quarter in four years. The survey also showed a rise of 29% of people readmitted to hospital as emergencies within 24 hours. Does not this raise huge concerns about patients being discharged unsafely and before they are medically fit in order to meet the Government’s empty beds targets, not to mention the trauma and upset caused to the patients themselves and their carers and families? Do the targets take account of readmissions? What additional funding and contingency plans are in place across NHS trusts and local authorities, if there just are not enough beds to cope with the winter flu crisis? Is not the Government’s flu preparedness in urgent need of review?

Mental Health Services: Children and Adolescents

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

That is what we are moving towards with the mental health first aid training for teachers in all schools. The noble Lord will recognise that schools come in all different shapes and sizes and that it is easier to do that initially in secondary schools, which are bigger than, for example, rural primary schools which might only have a staff of 10. It is critical to make sure that there is at least one member of staff who is highly trained in spotting and dealing with the initial signs of mental health problems and signposting them to the relevant authority—local health authority or whatever it is—for further care.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, the recent survey by the Children and Young People’s Mental Health Coalition has shown that the problems young people are now presenting with have become even more severe. Can the Minister reassure the House that funding earmarked for local CAMHS transformation plans will reach local services this year? How are the Government making sure that this happens and preventing funds from being diverted to other desperately stretched services?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The transition from CAMHS is now one of the mandatory national indicators in what is called the Commissioning for Quality and Innovation scheme which provides incentives for performance, so I can reassure the noble Baroness on that. She is also quite right to highlight the issue of severity. That is why, under the plans that we have set out for CAMHS, by 2021 the service will be able to see 70,000 additional children per year for evidence-based treatment.

Older Persons: Care and Human Rights

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

There is a prospect to look forward to. If we will be living to 150, there are a lot of middle-aged people in this Chamber. The noble Baroness is right. There is a particular issue around frailty as people move into old age. That is why the GP contract introduces responsibility to look out for frailty, as well as making sure that there are named GPs for the over-75s and, if necessary, annual health checks, to make sure that there is both health and social care provision for older people.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend is to be congratulated on his excellent report, bringing together key issues that would enable older people to maintain their independence, dignity and quality of life and to receive the care that they need. The report underlines the importance of countries having an enabling legal framework for the provision of integrated health and social care. What action will the Government therefore take in the light of the conclusions of last week’s IPPR report, which calls for our existing national legislation to be amended to enable pooled budgets and integration, and also says that if everybody has to carry on working round the 2012 Act, as at present, STPs and accountable care systems could both be blocked?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I will read the report that the noble Baroness mentioned. She is quite right that integration of health and care budgets is the way forward, particularly as the burden of disease changes away from infectious diseases towards lifestyle and complex diseases of old age. The better care fund is beginning to start the kind of integration she is talking about, but of course we need STPs and accountable care systems, as set out in the five-year forward view. We feel there is, at the moment, the legislative freedom we need to move ahead with that.

Adult Social Care Services

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 6th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Answer, but once again the Government seem to be in complete denial about the reality of the situation facing us in social care. A year ago, the Care Quality Commission first warned that social care could be approaching a tipping point. Today, Andrea Sutcliffe, Chief Inspector of Adult Social Care, has said that,

“the danger of adult social care approaching its tipping point has not disappeared. If it tips, it will mean even more poor care, less choice and more unmet need for people”.

Why have the Government neglected to tackle the issues facing our social care sector and failed to give it the money it needs? This report highlights safety concerns in one in four care homes. Age UK described choosing a care home as Russian roulette. Does the Minister believe that it is acceptable to force people to take these kinds of risks with their loved ones?

According to the Care Quality Commission report, 4,000 fewer nursing-home beds are now open than in March 2015. Is the Minister concerned about this drop, and what actions is he taking to ensure that there are enough nursing-home beds for those who need them and enough nurses to staff them?

This week marked the sixth anniversary of the Dilnot commission report into social care. The Government accepted the commission’s recommendations; they legislated for them; and they announced that the cap on personal funding would be £72,000, after which the state would intervene. Why did the Government abandon all that in favour of their ill-fated dementia tax? Why are this Government no closer to finding a solution for funding social care? Can the Minister tell the House why his Government have wasted seven years and failed to take any action to solve the social care crisis?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I shall respond to the several questions that the noble Baroness asked. She is right that the CQC made that warning last year, and that is precisely why the Government have chosen to put in additional money—£2 billion extra was announced in the spring Budget—to support the social care system and provide real-term increases in funding.

It is worth pointing out that today’s report shows that 79% of care settings received a good or outstanding rating, compared with 72% last year. There are obviously differences in the kinds of settings that were inspected; nevertheless, it shows an increase in the number of good or outstanding settings.

I completely agree with the noble Baroness’s point about patient safety. I think that the phrase “the Mum test” is both accurate and evocative. Clearly, nobody wants to choose care settings that do not pass that, and any care that is inadequate is unacceptable. However, the reason we have that information about unacceptable care settings is that this Government, in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, introduced a very tough inspection regime in 2014. I believe that today’s report shows that four out of five settings that were judged inadequate on the first inspection had improved on reinspection, so the inspection regime is itself a critical part of dealing with the issue that she rightly points to.

The noble Baroness highlighted the number of beds and staffing. Around 165,000 more staff are working in the care sector, but of course care is moving more from residential homes to domiciliary settings, so the nature of care is changing there. However, more staff are going into the service and they are now being paid the national living wage.

Finally, it is fair to say that no Government have a completely unblemished record in getting to grips with the problem of funding care. The Labour Government had Green Papers, royal commissions, the Wanless review and so on; we have had other investigations. However, to go back to the beginning, the point is that we cannot wait any longer—we need to get on with this—and that is why I set out in the Queen’s Speech debate last week that the consultation that we will publish at the end of this year will look not just at an open question but at very specific proposals around floors and caps, and I hope that we will be able to build a consensus on the need to move forward.

National Stroke Strategy

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, decisions about the development of disease-specific strategies are made by NHS England. Its current view is that, rather than focusing on specific diseases, it is better to promote plans and policies that cut across several disease areas. So, while there is not going to be a new strategy, stroke is high on the list of NHS England’s priorities in terms of both prevention and treatment.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response. Stroke is the largest cause of all adult disability in this country and costs billions of pounds in health and social care, disabilities and work and related costs. However, all the evidence from STPs is that they are not prioritising stroke care. They are focused mainly on acute hospital care rather than on commissioning the whole stroke care pathway, which provides the rehabilitation and community support that stroke survivors need. They are also very short on specifics on how preventive services for stroke or any other key services will be delivered or funded. With such overwhelming evidence from STPs that improvements to stroke services will stall or come to a complete halt, will the Government now put pressure on NHS England to review its decision not to renew the national strategy?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I know that the noble Baroness has a deep commitment to ensuring the best possible stroke care. She is quite right to highlight the economic and personal costs of stroke. There is a good picture in this country in so much as mortality from stroke and the incidence of stroke have halved over recent years—so the picture is improving. The stroke strategy the noble Baroness mentioned was superseded in 2013 by a cardiovascular disease outcome strategy that is obviously broader but includes stroke. That builds on the work that has already happened. I am realistic about the fact that there is obviously more to do, but we now have a number of hyperacute centres that are rolling out new treatments, such as thrombectomy, which will help treat stroke and make sure that we bring mortality down even further.

Gene Editing: Agriculture and Medicine

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 27th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

My noble friend is right to highlight the potential of gene editing by referring to that life-saving treatment of a girl with leukaemia. We have a world-leading regulatory climate and there are strict rules governing research in this area: for example, research involving the use of embryos is allowed up until 14 days but not beyond. We should certainly carry on with that research—indeed, we have a more permissive regulatory environment than in much of the world. As my noble friend rightly points out, we need to do that with the purpose of respecting life and of course reducing harm, driven by the desire to do so.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, HIV has been mentioned. The Minister will know that the results from the gene-editing clinical trial for people who are HIV positive have shown promise, particularly regarding the use of zinc fingers, which can find specific sites in DNA that can then be edited. Research is in its very early stages but has shown the potential to increase resistance to the virus, with the ultimate goal of weaning some people off antiretroviral drugs. What are the Government doing to support and take forward this important research?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

As we have discussed, there is huge potential regarding illnesses such as HIV. Clinical trials of gene therapies involving gene editing are still at an early stage, and are receiving support from the National Institute for Health Research. Any applications that go beyond the experimental and research stage would inevitably have to go through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency regarding safety and clinical potential. So the right system exists, investment is taking place at the early stage of research and before anything is done to any scale, it must be subject to the proper discussion and scrutiny.

Social Care in England: Older People

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to Age UK’s report on the state of social care in England The Health and Care of Older People in England 2017.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, social care is a priority for this Government. That is why the Chancellor announced that local authorities in England will receive an extra £2 billion for social care in the next three years. This funding will allow councils to support more people, sustain a diverse market and ease pressures on the NHS.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, before I respond, on behalf of the whole House I congratulate Dame Vera Lynn on her 100th birthday. I was not born during the war but as a post-war child I remember how people spoke and felt about her, and I send her our warm thanks.

Back to business. The Age UK report gives a very sobering picture of the scale of the unmet demand and likely future demand for social care, and the Minister knows that the extra £2 billion he spoke of spread over the next three years is the shortest of short-term solutions. I want to focus on the report’s assessment that the number of older people with unmet social care needs—defined as whether someone can carry out everyday activities such as washing, dressing, eating and using the toilet—has now grown to 1.2 million. This is an 18% increase since last year and nearly a 50% increase since 2010. It means that one in eight older people is living with some level of unmet need regarding vital everyday tasks. Can the Minister confirm that the Government’s Green Paper will acknowledge this level of demand and need, and that their long-term funding solutions will have to address this issue, as well as the provision of long-term care?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right that there is a growing need for care for older people because of our ageing and growing population. I am sure she welcomes the additional funding announced in the Budget. It brings to over £9 billion the additional funding announced since 2015 for social care for the next three years, and that will make a big difference to meeting the kinds of care needs that she is talking about. She talked about the difference between the short term and the long term. That is why the other crucial part of the Budget announcement concerned the Green Paper. This will be ambitious in scope, with the intention of creating a fairer and more sustainable system of the kind I am sure she wants to see.

NHS: Sustainability and Transformation Plans

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

My noble friend is quite right to bring the attention of the House to the effect of standards. The Care Act 2014 introduced for the first time national standards as well as much greater transparency in the provision of care. What the announcement in the Budget of additional funding for social care allows for is particularly a focus on the interface between the NHS and social care, which is where the issue of delayed transfers can arise. I can provide my noble friend with a reassurance that the Green Paper will be looking at this issue in the round, carrying on from the work done in the Budget to try to address the interface between the social care and health systems.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, what is the Minister’s response to the key questions asked in the recent King’s Fund progress assessment on how STPs are to be funded and how integrated care is to be delivered in the context of having, in its words, a,

“‘workaround’ … of the complex and fragmented organisational arrangements that are the legacy of the Health and Social Care Act 2012‘”,

and when the NHS is under huge pressure to make £22 billion of efficiency savings and to improve performance? Does this not show that the thinking and modelling behind STPs are deeply flawed?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I am sorry to hear the noble Baroness say that about the STPs, which have received support from the King’s Fund and NHS clinical commissioners. I hope that she is also aware that in the Budget the Chancellor announced £325 million of capital spending to support the strongest STPs, those which are capable of providing the kind of integration she has talked about and are delivering the highest levels of performance.

Adult Social Care: Funding

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 16th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The issue of children’s palliative care came up in the debate the other evening on palliative care. A review is taking place with the charitable sector of the distribution of funding, particularly for children’s hospices, over the next year. In terms of children’s social care—this may come as a surprise to some noble Lords; it certainly did to me—the fastest-growing part of the adult social care budget is for adults with learning disabilities. Of course, that often comes in at the point at which people leave the children’s social care system and the school system and move into the adult social care sector, so there is an important point about continuity from one to the other.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that the domiciliary care of people in their homes is in deep crisis, with 400 care home businesses declared insolvent since 2010? Large providers such as Mitie have recently been selling their home care health business—it sold it off for just £2, plus a £10 million pay-off to the new outsourcing firm for business trading losses and other costs. What impact do the Government assess that the £2 billion Budget cash spread over three years will have on halting home closures and reducing the risk of industry collapse? Will the future Green Paper look at finding a new, more sustainable model for providing and funding residential and domiciliary care?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness brings up the issue of care homes closing. Inevitably, there is churn in the system. There has been a stable number of residential care home and nursing home beds, which is one metric. The other is the fact that there are many more home care agencies, with a lot more domiciliary care going on, and over 150,000 more social care jobs, so I do not think that the picture is quite as the noble Baroness described it. However, making sure that we have a sustainable system is at the heart of the Green Paper plans.

Hospital Beds: Availability

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My noble friend is quite right that there has been an increasing prevalence of domiciliary care, which involves carers caring for patients in their own homes. Making sure that those patients can get home at a good time that works for them and those who support them is clearly a critical part of dealing with this delayed discharge issue.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister was talking about care workers rather than carers. He has focused on social care but Nuffield Trust research shows that the proportion of discharge delays due to the unavailability of social care has grown by 84% in six years, but also that 57% of delays occurred because of problems in the NHS itself. This is because of a lack of local NHS community or rehabilitation services, and of the availability of home support therapies or access to diagnostic and other services. Are STPs going to be able to tackle this, given the scale of cuts that will need to be made? Is the Minister confident that last year’s NAO report, which warned that the Department of Health and NHS England rely “too easily” on differing local circumstances as a “catch-all excuse” for not improving NHS performance, is being addressed?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right that there is increasing pressure on the health service. There have been 3.5 million more hospital admissions in the last 10 years and 2.4 million more A&E attendances in the last five years, so there is huge extra pressure. The number of acute beds has been dropping for a long time but at a slower rate in more recent years. Clearly, making sure that the right level of community care is available—step-down or interim care between hospital and home—will be incredibly important, particularly with a growing and ageing population.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I am the third person to congratulate the Minister. I add the support of these Benches for these amendments, which address unlicensed special medicines, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on her tenacity in pursuing this issue and securing an important concession from the Government. I am sorry she cannot be here, but we can be pretty sure she will be reading Hansard to make sure we have got it right.

It has been hard to understand why the Government were refusing to recognise the need for urgent action on medicinal specials, particularly in view of the substantial price variation between hospital and community care, the many patients in community and primary care who are currently denied access to some specials, and the potential savings across the NHS that introducing a cheaper and more cost-effective whole-market procurement system will provide.

We are very pleased that the Minister has now recognised the need for the Bill to address this important issue in England and Wales. I welcome the legislative framework he has presented. As he pointed out, he has an extensive consultation exercise to conduct on all parts of the Bill, and this will certainly be included in that.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am truly touched to have been thanked personally by proxy by two noble Baronesses. I am grateful for that, and I am grateful for the support for these amendments, which are a testament to the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

I do not think it is quite fair to say that the Government did not recognise the need for action. The amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, disinterred a work programme that had been put on pause in order to deal with the Bill and discovered that lots of interesting work and thinking was going on, so we have been able to bring that to the fore, which is a fantastic thing, and the way legislation should work.

Residential Care

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The most important thing when providing care is that it is in a setting that people want and feel comfortable with. There is, of course, a trend towards more domiciliary and supported housing for precisely that reason.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, what is the Minister’s view of Disability United’s recent FOI finding on NHS continuing care that a large number of CCGs are saying they will not support the care of chronically ill people in their homes if it is cheaper for them to be in residential care? How does this sit with the reality of the state of the residential care industry, with bed shortages in many areas so that patients cannot be transferred from hospital, and with the Government’s aim of giving chronically and terminally ill people choice about where they want to be cared for, particularly at the end of life?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point. There is clearly a need for additional capacity, because there is a much greater population. The number of people aged over 85 has increased by about 25% in the last five years and that will increase at a similar rate over the next five years, so more capacity is needed both at hospital level, in residential and nursing homes, and at a domiciliary level too.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Baroness Wheeler and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, we tabled Amendment 7 to probe the Government on why, in their new draft regulations, with 25 pages just on the branded medicines proposals, they seek to alter the current arrangements for exempting low-cost presentations from the price-reduction requirements of the statutory scheme. As the Minister will know, the existing regulations specify as an exemption a low reimbursement price of either under £2 an item or low primary care sales to NHS England of less than £450,000 a year. The provision has been there to protect the commercial viability of low-revenue or very low-cost medicines. It therefore seems somewhat counterintuitive to remove this safeguard at a time of such significant uncertainty for the pharmaceutical industry, particularly in the face of what could be a highly disruptive withdrawal from the EU.

Under paragraph 11, the proposed revised regulations give the Secretary of State the power to exempt a manufacturer or supplier where he considers that an exemption is necessary to ensure adequate supplies of medicines for health services purposes. This changes the current arrangements to give the Secretary of State a discretionary power that he may use in certain circumstances, rather than the automatic exemption that currently operates for £2 per item or a £450,000 annual sum. The current provision is important in maintaining adequate supplies to the health service of the medicines in question.

We are concerned about the significant impact that the removal of the current arrangements will have on manufacturers producing the common, low-cost generic branded medicines in question, such as those for hypertension. Although it is not always the case, the producers of such low-cost medicines are often small businesses operating on small margins. If they are not exempted from paying a rebate on those medicines, many will struggle to maintain current low costs, resulting in a consequent rise in costs for those medicines.

It is also important that the regulations accompanying the Bill maintain a specific exemption from the statutory scheme in the case of supply shortages, as currently. Amendment 8 would therefore formally place this duty on the Secretary of State. This is particularly important given the concerns of GPs and other health professionals, who have voiced frustration about having to prescribe “second choice” medicines because their preferred drug is out of stock. Representative bodies have also expressed their concern about the removal of the current exemption.

The amendments do not call for anything new but for some of the current regulations to be maintained and—where the Secretary of State believes that there is a case for it—strengthened. I look forward to hearing from the Minister the Government’s reasons for seeking to change the current regulations. Has any work been undertaken to assess the potential impact on the future availability and cost of the medicines that will be affected, and on future supplies? Is this designed to save costs—and, if so, what is the expected level of savings to the NHS?

Noble Lords may feel that there is a case for debating the long-term place of such exemptions in the regulations, but now is clearly not the time to pull the rug from beneath the producers of low-cost medicines, or medicines at risk of supply shortages. Instead, it is important that the status quo is maintained until such time as the Government can be clear about the consequences and the benefits of any change. I beg to move.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for raising important issues through these amendments, both of which relate to the operation of the statutory scheme. I will turn to each separately.

Amendment 7 would set an exemption for low-cost presentations, defined in primary legislation as those presentations,

“of less than £2 per unit or with sales to NHS England totalling less than £450,000 per annum”.

This is similar to the exemption that exists in the current statutory scheme for presentations with a reimbursement price of less than £2.

Officials have continued to have constructive discussions with industry representatives and stakeholders throughout the consultation and since publishing the illustrative regulations. Through these discussions, my officials have been listening to views on the illustrative regulations and refining the policy approach for a future statutory scheme. I am sympathetic to the arguments that companies make in relation to these types of low-cost presentations, which could not only lead to direct savings to the NHS when compared to more expensive treatments but incentivise companies to lower prices further to meet the threshold. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, that as a result of the discussions with industry, my officials are already considering a policy approach for low-price presentations.

However, the Government are not convinced that it is appropriate or desirable to have such an exemption set out in primary legislation. Setting out specific thresholds in primary legislation would be inflexible and would limit the Government’s ability to adjust them to account for the economic circumstances at the time. I can, however, commit that an exemption for low-price presentations will be included as part of the forthcoming consultation on the operation of the scheme, which will take place this year. I hope that this provides the noble Baroness and other noble Lords with the reassurance that the Government will fully consider this and take it forward.

Turning to the second amendment, Amendment 8 would place a legal duty on the Secretary of State to make provisions which “ensure adequate supplies” of those medicines in the statutory scheme. The production and supply of medicines is complex and highly regulated, involving materials and processes that must, rightly, meet rigorous safety and quality standards. These complex factors stretch far beyond those that relate specifically to medicine costs. Difficulties in ensuring supply can arise for a number of reasons including manufacturing problems, supply and demand imbalance and issues related to raw materials and regulatory action as a result of, for example, manufacturing site inspections. It is also important to remember the impact of a globalised pharmaceutical industry, which can mean that factors around the world can directly impact supplies of medicines to the UK.

However, I reassure the Committee that the Government recognise the vital importance of ensuring adequate supplies and actively manage and respond to supply issues on a daily basis. The Government have also carefully considered the supply issues in developing policy and regulation. We consider that in most cases, the ability to increase prices, as provided in the illustrative regulations, is the right way to address short or long-term supply problems, where these circumstances are dependent on UK pricing. We also recognise that there may be exceptions to this approach, which is why we included in the illustrative regulations a provision in Regulation 11 allowing the Secretary of State to exempt companies from price controls in the statutory scheme,

“where he considers that an exemption is necessary to ensure adequate supplies of that presentation for health service purposes”.

I understand and am sympathetic to the intention behind the amendment and concerns relating to the supply of medicines in the statutory scheme. However, given the complexities in the provision and supply of medicines, we believe that exemptions for supply issues are best dealt with by exemption, rather than a comprehensive and broad duty. In responding to both amendments, I hope that I have provided the Committee with the assurance that we recognise the concerns and will address them in both primary legislation and the illustrative regulations. I ask that the noble Baroness withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and for the focus that he says that he will give in future to constructive consultation with the industry. There was a feeling that it was not being consulted on these issues, and his reassurances about that are welcome. Obviously, supply in the industry is complex and I will look at what the Minister said. We are concerned about the industry’s fears about the cost of deleting these provisions and we were certainly not advocating putting them into statutory requirements but making sure that the regulations dealt with this issue adequately. For the most part, I thank the Minister for the response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, we very much support the intention behind this amendment and commend the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for her determined and dogged campaigning in highlighting this issue and trying to persuade the Government to recognise the problem. In a Bill designed to close loopholes, this is a particularly important one to address. At the same time, it would obviously save the NHS a substantial amount of money. A BBC investigation six years ago estimated a potential saving of £70 million a year just for England, so it is hard to see why the Government should not want to take urgent action now.

We have heard from the noble Baroness, and from the excellent work undertaken on this issue by the British Association of Dermatologists and other organisations, of the overall costs and substantial savings that could be made on unlicensed medicines. Addressing this issue would be to the benefit of the NHS and the many patients in community and primary care who are denied access to special order medicines because of the way in which the current procurement system operates. The anomaly is that if they were in hospital, they would have stood a good chance of being given the drug.

We have also heard how the current system can result in some suppliers charging hyperinflated costs for specials, particularly when chemists do not buy direct from a specials manufacturer but via a wholesaler which adds its costs to the price. This results in the NHS having to pay the chemist the wholesalers’ rather than the manufacturers’ price, because there is no price tariff on the unlicensed specials. Moreover, prices for specials in the primary care sector are set by reference to the Association of Pharmaceutical Specials Manufacturers, which covers private companies that generally manufacture only smaller and therefore much more expensive quantities of drugs. The whole system, which has one much cheaper and cost-effective system for hospitals and another for community and primary care, surely needs to be urgently addressed.

I ask the Minister whether consideration can be given to the Competition and Markets Authority being asked to investigate suppliers. Why have the Government not looked at and learned from the Scottish system, which takes a whole-market approach in the way that the noble Baroness proposes should operate here? We understand that the Government have proposed a six-month review of the existing and proposed arrangements, but we do not feel that this adequately recognises the urgency and scale of the problem. In the Commons, the Minister, Philip Dunne, acknowledged that the Government have existing powers to address the issue, so why is it not being addressed?

The amendment contains the important provision to require NHS England, as part of its tariff-setting processes, to seek prices from the NHS as well as private manufacturers—the whole market—and we fully support this. If the Minister would at last take the important step of recognising and acknowledging the problem, then work could commence on the procurement process required to bring the new system into effect.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for the work that she has put into investigating this issue, for her amendment and, indeed, the intent behind it, which is to save the NHS money and provide a better bang for our buck. That is something that everyone would support.

I say first that it is the Government’s priority to make sure that we get the best possible results for all NHS patients with the resources we have. That is what the Bill, in its entirety, aims to do. This amendment seeks to save the NHS money on specials by requiring CCGs, hospital trusts and community pharmacies to seek no less than three quotes for non-tariff items, at least one of which should be from an NHS manufacturer and, where possible, to select the cheapest quote. It also requires NHS England to take into account prices of NHS manufacturers when setting reimbursement prices. A special is a medicine manufactured or imported to meet the specific needs of a specific patient. By nature they are bespoke, and therefore they do not have the same economies of scale during manufacture and distribution as licensed medicines. Due to the bespoke nature of specials, the costs associated with manufacturing and distribution will never be as low as the often relatively cheap components that make up the special. I say that by way of background for those who are perhaps not as familiar with the subject as the noble Baroness is.

I turn now to the idea of setting tariff reimbursement prices and including data from NHS manufacturers. In England, reimbursement prices for the most commonly prescribed specials are listed in the drug tariff. Those prices are based on sales and volume data, which the department currently obtains from specials manufacturers under a voluntary arrangement. The new provisions in the Bill would make reimbursement data more widely available and more accurate—which would clearly be a benefit in making sure we get value for money with specials. By setting a reimbursement price, we encourage pharmacy contractors to source products as cheaply as possibly because it allows them to earn a margin, which in turn creates competition in the market and, as a result, lowers reimbursement prices. Since these reimbursement arrangements were introduced in 2011, we have observed that, in England, the average cost for specials listed in the drug tariff decreased by 39% between 2011 and 2016.

In setting that out, I do not disagree with the idea that there are instances of wild variation. Indeed, I ask the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Wheeler, for any examples and evidence that they have. I would be keen to see them, to better understand instances where it has happened.

Basing reimbursement prices on selling prices from more manufacturers than we do now, which the Bill would allow us to do, would make our reimbursement system more robust. For specials, we currently rely on information from those manufacturers that have signed up to our voluntary arrangement. There have been talks with NHS manufacturers to provide information on a voluntary basis. However, we have not been successful so far in securing data from NHS manufacturers that we are able to use. The Bill would enable us to get information from all manufacturers, including NHS manufacturers, for the purpose of reimbursing community pharmacies—that being, of course, one of the main aims of the Bill. Once we receive data from NHS manufacturers, we will be able to assess whether it is appropriate to include it in calculating reimbursement prices. We are actively looking to see whether we can include data as part of our reimbursement price setting, and the Bill will help us to get it. Consequently, we do not need the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their many amendments in this group. They cover two very important aspects of the Bill and I am grateful for the opportunity to provide further clarification.

I will look first at the issue of small and medium-sized enterprises. As noble Lords will understand, the medicines sector is very diverse, with companies ranging from the largest global enterprises with multiple interests to very small companies that manufacture specials on a bespoke basis. The Government have no intention to put unnecessary burdens on companies, and especially not on SMEs. The information that we would require them to keep, record and provide would not be more than companies are currently required to keep for tax purposes. For routine collections, we know that they are not an excessive burden on companies. We heard the director-general of the British Generic Manufacturers Association say at the evidence session for the Bill in the Commons that:

“Providing those data is not a big issue for the majority of our members because it is run from their invoicing system”.—[Official Report, Commons, Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill Committee, 8/11/16; col. 7.]


For non-routine collections, the illustrative regulations specifically make provision for SMEs, defined here as companies with a UK turnover of less than £5 million, which can provide information in the form of pre-existing information such as invoices. This is the method by which we currently collect information from pharmacies, and we know that the process places barely any burden on them. We will consult the industry on the definition of an SME and will look also at the different definitions—I am aware that multiple definitions are being used across government. We would rely on the information provisions in the Bill to be able to obtain information to operate any price and cost control schemes. This definition of an SME would make it impossible to obtain information from certain companies and, therefore, it would be much harder effectively to operate our voluntary and statutory schemes. The amendment has the effect, therefore, of limiting applications of pricing controls set out in this Bill to large companies only.

We have considered carefully the application of the statutory scheme to small companies. Our consultation last year proposed that the exemption threshold for the new statutory scheme should be set at £5 million of branded health service medicines sales. This maintains the current statutory scheme arrangement and aligns, as we are trying to do throughout the Bill, with the current PPRS. Most industry responses agreed with this proposal, and the illustrative regulations published to aid discussion of the Bill show how it would be incorporated into the operation of the scheme.

It is also important to note that this bespoke definition is focused on the level of sales rather than company turnover, ensuring that only those businesses that make branded health services medicines sales of more than £5 million a year to the NHS will be included in the schemes. On that basis, any company, including those which fall within the EU definition of an SME, will be included in the scheme only if their sales reach this threshold. Not only does this align with the current PPRS and the Government’s broader aims to support SMEs but this bespoke definition ensures that the focus is kept on sales of branded medicines to the NHS. More details are set out in the illustrative regulations for the statutory scheme that have been published alongside the Bill.

There would, however, as a result of this amendment, be additional impacts to the reimbursement of community pharmacies and GP practices, which is one of the core purposes of the Bill, and to the collection of information. Community pharmacies purchase the medicines they supply against NHS prescriptions. The drug tariff sets out a reimbursement price that they will be paid for the majority of medicines. The Government have voluntary agreements in place with manufacturers and wholesalers of unbranded generic medicines and specials. They provide us with information on their prices and volumes, which informs our reimbursement prices. As a consequence of these arrangements, the Government have been able to reimburse community pharmacies more robustly for the products covered by the arrangement.

If SMEs, whether defined as set out in the amendment or under any other definition, were excluded from the requirement to provide information, then not all manufacturers and wholesalers would be included. Reimbursement would be based on large company data alone, with the risk that the prices being paid by small and medium-sized enterprises would not be reflected in the reimbursement prices, to their disbenefit.

In order for the reimbursement system to work effectively, appropriate data are needed from all parts of the supply chain, both large and small companies. If the prices charged by larger companies were generally lower, and these would be the only prices used to inform reimbursement prices, we would be systematically underfunding community pharmacies. This in turn could drive them to purchase products from the large companies only. The effect of this could be that small companies go out of business leading to less competition.

The third purpose for collection of information is for the Government to be assured that adequate supplies of healthcare products are available and on terms which represent value for money. We recognise that this non-routine provision of information is somewhat different from that associated with reimbursement and running our price and cost control schemes, and this is exactly why we have made provisions for SMEs.

I hope that I have assured noble Lords that the burden on SMEs has been considered carefully. We have provided bespoke definitions for both the price control schemes and the information provisions, in order that requirements are placed only on relevant companies for essential information. Broader definitions would risk both the price control schemes and critically the reimbursement mechanisms failing to work as well as they do now, let alone how they could work in the future.

I turn now to the other effect of the amendment, which is to limit application of the information-gathering powers to medicines and remove medical supplies or other related products from the scope of the clause. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I will look at the use of language and definitions subsequent to our debate today and provide reassurance that that is being done in the appropriate way and not to create confusion.

The 2006 Act gives the Government powers to control the price of medical supplies, as we have discussed at length, to collect information on medical supplies and to take enforcement action in the event of non-compliance. The Bill changes the 2006 Act in relation to medical supplies by reducing the enforcement penalties from criminal to civil, and aligns medical supplies provisions with those for medicines.

Clause 6 of the Bill brings together in one place all of the information requirements underpinning the provisions within this Bill. Without that information the provisions cannot apply to those companies. Removing medical supplies and other related products from this clause would therefore mean that we would not have the necessary information to put in place and operate a price control scheme if we wanted to and take specific action against instances of unwarranted price rises that come to our attention, although I appreciate that noble Lords have concerns that those two things will never happen in reality. Finally, it would impede our ability to put in place more robust reimbursement arrangements for medical supplies provided by community pharmacies for all the reasons that I touched on in the context of small and medium-sized enterprises. That is very important information to have to ensure that reimbursement happens properly.

It is right and proper for the Government to have effective powers to gather information regarding medical supplies and other related products in order to improve our understanding of the costs across the supply chain and ensure that those are providing value for money and that we are properly reimbursing community pharmacies. The medical supplies industry is made up largely of SMEs, and my comments earlier reflect my very real concern to ensure that we ask only for essential information that does not provide an additional burden on such companies. On that basis, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. Quite honestly, at this late stage, I will not go into the debates that we have already had on the issue of inclusion of non-medicines in the scope of the Bill or of the burden on SMEs. But it is hard to see from the Minister’s response how the Government can say that they are open to ideas and suggestions on how they will reduce the regulatory burden on the medical supplies industry and particularly on SMEs. The Minister knows that we remain to be convinced on this whole area. I hope that we can have ongoing discussions on this matter before Report. We will certainly return to this issue, but meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.