Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Wheatcroft and Lord Carlile of Berriew

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and I will not repeat what she said. She opened the debate on these amendments with superb clarity, characteristic of her contributions to your Lordships’ House.

I have been shocked by what I have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Markham. I ask him just to reflect on two contributions made earlier in this afternoon’s session by my noble friend Lord Mawson, who, from his own experience, described what happens in poorer neighbourhoods, which he has experienced very directly, in which people face different problems and are more likely to want to die for reasons to which their terminal illness is just an ancillary point.

I have been involved in these debates since I came into your Lordships’ House at least. I was on the Joffe Bill Committee with my noble friend Lady Finlay. In the Committee on that Bill, in all the other Bills I can remember since, and particularly in all the case law that I have followed over the years—mostly very celebrated cases—the purpose of asking for assisted suicide has been to alleviate terrible suffering. That has been the sole purpose for demanding a change in the law: to alleviate terrible suffering. I do not believe that the noble and learned Lord wishes to achieve anything different from that. It is just that it does not say in the Bill that the purpose of having assisted suicide should be to alleviate terrible suffering.

Of course, there may be other issues at work in that person’s mind when they ask for assisted suicide—we cannot read every synapse in their brain—but we are here to legislate to save people from terrible suffering, if the Bill is to pass. I am very concerned that the Bill should be amended so that the capability to have assisted suicide does not arise as an opportunity to commit suicide. The reason to commit suicide, the absolute cause, should be the intolerable suffering.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

Would the noble Lord accept, however, that it would be deeply unfair if somebody whose major wish was to end their terminal illness, and the pain and intolerable suffering that was coming with it, was to be denied that right because they were also concerned about numerous other things? Very few people have a perfect life, even when they are close to death. To deny that person the right to an assisted death because they might have concerns beyond their suffering would seem to be cruel in the extreme.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

I do not think there is much difference between what I am saying and what my noble friend is saying. I am saying that, if this law is passed, people should be able to obtain assisted suicide because of intolerable suffering. I am not seeking to exclude other matters that might be in their mind, but the cause of asking for assisted suicide should be that suffering. The medical profession, lawyers and judges in particular—if we have the judicial option rather than the panel option—are perfectly capable of reaching a decision on the facts that would lead to the appropriate conclusion.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Wheatcroft and Lord Carlile of Berriew

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

My Lords, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, knows, I have enormous admiration for his skill and ability. He is at his best when he makes points with simplicity, but that point was not made with simplicity. I am totally confused by what he sought to say and I reject his argument completely. He knows perfectly well, as all the Liberal Democrats know, that what was put to the country was a referendum in the normal constitutional and legal form. No Liberal Democrat, least of all the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown—perhaps he was too busy eating his hat as a result of his comments on television during the general election—suggested for one moment that there was something different about the referendum that we faced last June. However, I am sure that noble Lords will want me to move on.

The truth of the matter is that we are facing this proposal for the second time—now rather better drafted, thanks to the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott—because unfortunately the Liberal Democrats do not like the result of last June’s referendum. Nor did I, but my advice to your Lordships’ House, for what it is worth, is: be careful what you wish for. The Liberal Democrats’ record on referenda ain’t so good. Noble Lords will recall the alternative vote referendum, as well as what happened in June. Indeed, I would say that Amendment 1 seeks to compress a huge quantity of extremely complicated issues into a simplistic binary question. It just will not work, and the Government do not need this kind of patronising advice in order to get on with the negotiations.

I now turn briefly to the constitutional issue. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, failed to answer the challenge from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, as to whether it would be a binding or an advisory referendum. He sought to answer it by saying that he thought that, on balance, it would be a binding referendum. If that is the basis of this amendment, it is ridiculous, because there is no provision in the law for a binding referendum.

The whole debate we have been having in your Lordships’ House has been about how much respect we should pay to the referendum that took place last June. My answer is that we should pay a lot of respect to it. I do not want to leave the European Union, but I recognise that the referendum has taken us to Article 50, which we must get on with triggering as soon as possible. The Government know perfectly well what they have to do. They know that, if they produce a completely unsatisfactory result, they will face a Motion of no confidence in the other place and will fall. We can well do without messing around with the arrangements which should now be in action.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)]

My Lords, I have no wish to get involved in Liberal Democrat internecine warfare but I put my name to this amendment and I support many of the speeches that have been made in support of it.

My noble friend the Minister has done a very skilful job in getting the Bill to this stage in this House, but in Committee he told us to be in no doubt that this country was leaving the EU—no ifs, no buts, and with no idea of the terms. I admire determination but not when it is blind to changing circumstances. I cannot see why any Government would be so adamant about a course of action with no knowledge of the circumstances in which they might take that course.

We do not know what the world will look like in two years’ time. Economically and politically it is at some of the most uncertain stages that I have ever seen in my lifetime. In two years’ time, the EU, the world and our economy could look very different—and, I suspect, not for the better. At that stage, we will be able to look at the deal that our Government have negotiated or, as others have pointed out, at the no deal that they have been handed. Although I am not an advocate of government by referenda, in this situation, having started the process with a referendum, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, pointed out, it seems to me that the only sensible way to bring the process to an end is to put the terms to the public. I have listened to the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and I do not dismiss the patronising advice that he gave the Liberal Democrats or those supporting this amendment, but I believe that the public need to see what is on offer.

During the course of this Bill, we have heard that, whatever people voted for on 23 June last year, it was not to get poorer. I cannot see that in the end the Government will be presenting them with a deal which does not mean that they get poorer. I believe that at that stage they should have a chance to vote on whether, having seen the future, it is the future that they really want.