Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I certainly think that is an interesting idea which I am very happy to feed into that process. I know the noble Baroness is a great campaigner on this issue, and the numbers of young people who are suffering from mental health problems are, frankly, terrifying. On the point about access, she was right that around one in four children and young people have been able to access these services. Our ambition, which we are on track to meet, is that this should rise to 35%. Clearly, we ought to reach 100%, but that involves recruiting a very large workforce, which we are in the process of doing.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister comment on whether there will be significant investment in trying to take psychology graduates into mental health nursing to enhance the number of people entering the profession?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I do not know the specifics on psychology graduates; I will write to the noble Baroness. If the number of nurses in mental health nurse training at the moment comes through into the profession, there will be 8,000 more mental health nurses by 2020. I am sure we will be keen to recruit them from wherever we can.

Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting - (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

It strikes me that Amendment 87E would apply not only to this Bill but to other Acts. Does it fit here? I understand the principle of what my noble friend is saying.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

It could have wide-reaching consequences, but a lot of people who have lost capacity and are in a state of high dependency are already in nursing homes, so they are already being cared for in the system and may be subject to deprivation of liberty. Some of them have long-term continuing funding for their care, but they have been there for a long time and the donee, who is managing all their affairs and advocating on their behalf, is very concerned about their welfare in the event of them failing.

--- Later in debate ---

We must therefore be very specific in view of the fact that these cases are rising, where private and public care providers are telling families what they cannot do. We must guard against this by making it clear in the Bill that it should not apply to domestic settings where normal arrangements are being put in place. We need the sort of arrangements that my noble friend Lady Meacher talked about for those few cases, but we have to restrict it to a few cases under very specific circumstances if we are going to have any domestic arrangements challenged in this way.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Meacher and the comments that my noble friend Lady Murphy just made. She said that she can speak only for the 900,000 people in this country with dementia—but that is a high proportion. I want to share with noble Lords that everything she said I agree with, as part of a multidisciplinary team but also because over 20 years ago she was my external examiner for my PhD—and I passed. The subject was about supporting people with dementia in the community, so this is close to both our hearts.

I will add a little to this debate. I support the amendment for two reasons. First, at the very least we need to think again about the Bill’s application to individuals in domestic settings; and, secondly, we need to think carefully about how domestic care arrangements can be authorised under a liberty protection safeguard and oversight properly maintained over the period of care—which may be for many years, because I agree that things change over that period. One of the things that can happen is that carers who are very good when you first see them are at the end of their tether three years later and can no longer manage. That is why the Law Commission suggests that the LPS should be integrated into care planning arrangements—but that does require regular review.

It may be feasible to amend the Bill so that the LPS could apply with the safeguarding professions of the Care Act, as my noble friend Lady Meacher has already said. Certainly there is a need to ensure that those who lack capacity are safeguarded when they are being looked after in domestic settings, as, sadly, we know that in a very small minority of cases deprivation of liberty occurs through carers’ lack of knowledge of alternative methods to maintain safety, and in even rarer cases in fact becomes a form of abuse. However, the current Bill, if enacted with a zealous approach by professionals, could become a serious intrusion into families’ rights to provide individualised, possibly slightly idiosyncratic care for their relative, which may be fully consistent with how both parties wish to behave within the confines of their family unit and own home. I therefore hope that we will be able to work with the Minister, and the Bill team as appropriate, to improve the Bill to better balance the rights of people being cared for by relatives in their own home, without unwarranted intrusion into the way in which families support and care for relatives with limited mental capacity, while ensuring that deprivation of liberty is appropriate to safeguard the individual.

Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments in particular because many cared-for people can express their wishes in the ways people have said. I want to give your Lordships an example from when I was working as an in-reach mental health nurse into a range of homes for people with learning disabilities. There was a young man who was extremely happy in the home in which he had been placed because it was near his parents. They used to visit regularly and they used to be able to take him out together and accompany him, because he was not safe to be out unaccompanied. When his parents died he showed all the signs and symptoms that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, outlined, which the staff put down to the fact that he was distressed that his parents had died. Actually, that was in part true, but he was terribly sad that his sister could visit him only once a month because she lived 200 miles away. She was very willing to visit him more and to take him out accompanied but could not do that unless he changed his home and moved nearer to her.

This actually had a successful outcome, so it is not a depressing story, but Amendments 32 and 35 in particular would make it a duty for the care home in which such a resident was living to think again. This particular young man was a very high fee payer paid by the council because his needs were very complex. There was not much in it for the care home to arrange for his transfer because it would be quite difficult to fill the place at the same cost outside. I want to bring reality into the Committee in relation to these two amendments and explain why I am so supportive of us considering them in a positive vein.

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords, the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, deserve an answer. I am sure that if the Minister cannot provide one tonight we will get one because she raised some very important points. The example that the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins of Tavistock, just gave gives us a practical idea of how these amendments might apply if they were part of the Bill.

Amendments 32 and 34 underpin the absolute need to discover the wishes and feelings of the cared-for person. Mencap summed it up pretty well in the briefing that it sent to noble Lords when it said that the views of the cared-for person should be at the heart of this clause. That point was made by my noble friend Lady Thornton during the debate on the first group of amendments today.

Putting the focus on ascertaining the wishes and, just as importantly, the feelings of the cared-for person is central to this, as is right and proper. I and others spoke about this at Second Reading and, frankly, we hope that the Government will respond positively to these proposals. Amendment 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, would address this by adding the cared-for person to the list of those who must be consulted, and Amendment 35 would ensure that views were sought on whether any less restrictive alternatives were available—all good sense.

When faced with legislation like the Bill and the issues it raises I often think, “If this Bill was about me, what would I want?” Most certainly I would want the protection and defence of my basic human rights that these amendments offer. Is this not something that every noble Lord in this House would want? If it is, we should ensure that it is there.

NHS: Staffing

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I completely agree with the noble Baroness that we want to make them feel welcome. I use this opportunity to state again how much those staff are valued and how much we want them to stay here. What we are doing about it practically is making sure that we communicate with employers and provide the EU settlement scheme—indeed, health and social care workers will take part in the pilot, which will happen later this year. We are sending that message and providing that reassurance. I understand that there is anxiety out there, which is why we want to reassure people, but I am reassured by the fact that there are more people from the EU working in the NHS and CCGs today than there were two years ago.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister comment on whether he will consider abolishing the health immigration surcharge, which non-EU nurses must pay to access NHS care? It is stopping people coming to work here.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The immigration surcharge, which applies to all people coming to work here from outside the EU, is about making sure that there is a fair contribution to the running costs of the NHS. That is a reasonable thing to do—it is what the public would expect us to do—but it is important to ensure that it is done in a fair and reasonable way, which represents the average costs incurred by people coming from outside the EU.

Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 5th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker]

The Human Rights Act was in force when the Mental Capacity Act was being debated. During the passage of that Act we considered very carefully what language we should use. Is the Minister saying that we got that wrong, and have there been cases of people who have fallen into the gap? If so, how many are there, and can he give the evidence by which the Government arrived at the conclusion they have now?

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

It might be complex to find the right nomenclature, but I heard the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, say that this was a starter for 10. I cannot see why we have to regress to 1959 language in the Mental Health Act without further exploration of whether we could redefine the term about perhaps affecting the mind, to take in that very small minority of people with severe physical illness that occasionally affects the mind. We have worked so hard to destigmatise both learning disability and mental health that it seems very sad that we cannot work a bit harder at this point on this issue.

[Lord Cashman]

I want to reaffirm the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. Surely it is not beyond the wit of drafters and our legal experts, when referring to the starter for 10 offered by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, to refer to the European Convention on Human Rights and the jurisprudence arising from the European Court of Human Rights? It seems to me that it is elegantly simple to take such an approach, reassuring the rights that relate to the “unsound mind” in relation to the new definition offered. I hope my intervention makes sense—it is not often best practice to speak on the hoof on such legal matters. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I have not made sense.

The NHS

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Darzi of Denham, for introducing this debate and for his excellent speech. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, whose eloquence on social care and the need for investment in it I wholeheartedly support. I declare my interests as in the register, most specifically as a mental health nurse of some 40 years’ standing.

There is a clear case for further integration of physical and mental health and community and social care provision if we are to meet the needs of our citizens and promote healthy living and, where necessary, treatment intervention. I am involved with the social movement Nursing Now, working with policymakers and senior nurses from several continents.

In Africa, a phrase is used: “Health is made in the home and communities and hospitals are for repairs”. We need to adopt this approach in our communities to serve our citizens as cost-effectively as is feasible. We are celebrating our investment in 70 years of the NHS, which has resulted in people living longer and healthier lives. However, this has brought the challenges associated with many older people having several complex health and social needs, a situation that was not fully anticipated in 1948. The challenges facing our young people in terms of mental problems and the increasing prevalence of non-communicable diseases associated with lifestyle are resulting in higher demand for healthcare intervention.

The demands on the NHS will continue to rise unless we focus on public health policies that encourage citizens to become more responsible for their own health. With the access we all now have to digital data, why should we not be more responsible for our own health records and monitor our responses to exercise, diet and medication? If our citizens are to be more accountable for their own health and well-being, they will still need health education, support and guidance to do so. Families need help in the early years of their children’s lives through effective health visitor interventions combined, where necessary, with structured support from social services and mental health interventions for families with experience of anxiety, depression or severe and enduring mental health conditions. Yet we know that these services are under considerable strain and that, even when sufficient resources are available, families and individual citizens complain that different workers often fail to work collegiately to provide coherent packages of care. If community-based health and social services were better integrated, it would be easier for individual providers of care to deliver appropriate services, as indicated in some of the vanguard sites. This also includes successfully reducing delayed transfers of care.

I have two further suggestions that I would like the Minister to consider. First, there should be a move towards more clinical treatments for people in their own homes, care homes and nursing homes. In Spain, it is not uncommon for a person with pneumonia to be treated with intravenous fluids and antibiotics in a nursing home, and even occasionally in their own home, without the need for hospital admission. Serious consideration of more simple treatments being given outside acute hospitals needs to be undertaken. This would reduce the need for more hospital beds and allow a redistribution of resources towards community-based interventions.

Secondly, all healthcare workers should be expected to be proficient in coronary pulmonary resuscitation and physical first aid. The APPG recently heard, when reviewing progress against the five-year mental health strategy, that there is a real need to increase training in acute in-patient first aid across society. I very much hope that we will do this.

Nursing and Midwifery (Amendment) Order 2018

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I support the Minister and the Motion to approve the Nursing and Midwifery (Amendment) Order 2018. I acknowledge the challenges that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has raised, in particular those that the Royal College of Nursing is concerned about, but believe that they are capable of resolution. I believe that the registered nurses who stand today will ensure that substitution does not happen for the roles that they really must undertake themselves.

I qualified as a nurse in 1976, when we still had enrolled nurses. For some time, I led a team that included enrolled nurses, but I was very clear, both as a district nursing sister and as a ward sister, that I was accountable for the elements that I delegated. That did not mean that enrolled nurses were not able to undertake routine care by themselves unsupervised, but rather that they were very aware of how to get help when they needed it. I believe that, if we get the nursing associate role right, a similar structure will occur.

I applaud the fact that nursing associates will have a clear ladder—probably through the apprenticeship route, as the noble Lord has just raised—to enable those who want to and who are capable to get university-level associated registration as a nurse. I do, however, regret that we have not called this new role a “healthcare associate”, because I believe that some of the work they will do will be undertaken in social care as well as in routine nursing care. We may need to reflect on that in years to come.

I also want to make it clear that this route should enable people to come relatively young into an adjunct profession that is associated, without them necessarily having A-levels on entry. That is important, because we know that a lot of young people would like to go into nursing or associated healthcare roles but are not able at that point to enter a three-year degree course. This is why I am so supportive of the structure.

The order makes provision for the new role of nursing associate to be subject to professional regulation by the Nursing and Midwifery Council. As has been explained, the first cohort should qualify in January 2019 and it is important for this legislation to be approved in sufficient time for the Nursing and Midwifery Council to open the register and put in place safe and effective standards and requirements for new staff entering the workforce. By regulating the role, the Nursing and Midwifery Council will contribute to the protection of the public by ensuring that nursing associates have high standards of education, will be required to keep their skills and knowledge up to date, and will be held accountable to a code of conduct.

As others have said, this new role has been rapidly developed as the result of successful work between employers and educational providers, with leadership from the CNO for England, Professor Jane Cummings, and the lead nurse at Health Education England, Professor Lisa Bayliss-Pratt, both of whom should be commended for their tenacity and work to achieve this end despite reluctance in some areas of the profession.

To reiterate an issue recently raised by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, many overseas applicants will want their qualifications recognised in relation to the nursing associate qualification, particularly licensed vocational nurses from a variety of Commonwealth countries. I urge the Government to ensure that proper funding is made available to map similar qualifications across the world so that we can make sure that we protect our own public if we allow overseas registrants to apply for this kind of qualification. It may be that they will need some kind of top-up, depending on the final standards that are agreed for nursing associates here.

I am aware that there have been challenges at the NMC recently but I echo the point of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and acknowledge the commitment of the Chief Executive and Registrar, Jackie Smith, which has ensured that nursing associates will be registered at the NMC in order not only to protect the public but to achieve a proper career route for nursing associates if they wish to proceed to study for registration as a nurse in the future. In the longer term, I hope the nursing associate route may provide a successful apprenticeship approach for some members of the public to become registered nurses, without necessarily having to enter graduate-level study at a time that is not suitable for all.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I too welcome the order; I am struck by the knowledge of the noble Lord, Lord Willis, obviously, and of the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, from her own practical experience. It is right and proper that we have this debate because a number of questions ought to be raised. To be fair to the Government, they have not been able to answer all the questions beforehand because, as we all know, this order is somewhat rushed. I understand the reason why and I concur with it.

As the Minister mentioned, the order was laid on 17 May; that is absolutely right, but it was first laid on 11 May and had to be withdrawn because it was inaccurate. That is an example of how the legislation has been rushed. It is therefore important that we, as a legislature, challenge the Executive on a number of issues. As has been indicated—the Minister understands this—the Government have consulted widely to try to get the feeling that, if the report by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, was implemented, it would be done in a sensible and correct manner. However, there has been a problem in that a number of the consultees have a vested interest. For example, the local commissioning trusts have an interest about who is going to pay for this. Will the funding come from the centre or from them? I shall come back to that point in a moment. Obviously the providers—the universities—have an interest because they need the income from running these courses. But of course I now see, and this is slightly worrying, that it is not only higher education institutions which are involved—further education institutions are too. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, possibly referred to this point when he said that he was “slightly concerned”—I emphasise the word “slightly”—that there could be some downgrading of the teaching input.

However, one group has not really been represented in these consultations: the nurses themselves. People will refer immediately to the Royal College of Nursing and its equivalent for midwives. But the trouble is that that organisation, in terms of this area, also has a vested interest. It is a registration body for nurses, yet at the same time it is a member organisation and there can be a conflict of views which I have come across quite often. I have no problem with the RCN registering nurses because it is both right and sensible, but we must recognise that there is a potential difficulty. I have talked to a number of nurses who are concerned about nursing associates. However, they can be reassured by this order. As the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and the noble Lord, Lord Willis, have both said, nurses are professionals. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Willis, made a very wise point. The pivotal role of caring in hospitals ought to rest with registered nurses. That is where we ought to begin because they are professional people.

Even so, nurses are concerned that their views have not always been represented in this consultation. I am therefore pleased to note that paragraph 7.20 of the draft Explanatory Memorandum makes that clear. I shall repeat that because it is important that it is on the record and nurses can see what the position is. The Government say, quite rightly:

“Nursing Associates are identified as a separate profession with different qualifications and education and training to nurses and midwives”.


Nursing associates are not nurses. They are not fully qualified and registered so in that sense they do not represent a challenge to nurses. That point must be rung out aloud because we need to ensure that a profession which is under pressure and suffering from low morale is reassured.

Paragraph 7.9 provides even more reassurance when it makes it clear that nursing associates will not be capable of,

“providing, supplying and administering medicines”.

That too needs to be shouted out. Moreover, I assume—perhaps the Minister can confirm this—that this includes giving injections. I should think it does because it refers to “administering medicines”, but we need clarification. The point is reinforced where the draft memorandum talks about situations of national emergency, when nurses and midwives can be empowered to prescribe. A flu pandemic is cited as an example. That is very sensible because we need the hands and brains of these people to do the job. Nurses help doctors, but it is made quite clear that the education and training of nursing associates is not of the same high standard as that of registered nurses. They will not be allowed to prescribe medicines in a national emergency situation or even a hospital emergency situation. I have spoken at some length, more than I would normally, but this House perhaps needs to help the Government to reassure qualified nurses that their status is not under threat.

I will deal with one or two other points. Paragraphs 7.14 to 7.16 talk about the two-year pilot courses. We understand why they were brought in, and I hope that we have learned a lot from them. Perhaps I might press the Minister on the number of people pursuing nursing associate courses at the moment. The Health Education England plan is for 5,000 nursing associates in training this year. I recollect a debate not long ago in this House in which the number of nurse associates in training was given not as 5,000 but 30—not 30,000 but 30. The Minister said, “I’m pretty sure those figures are wrong—they are too low—but the figure is disappointing”. I wonder whether he has up-to-date figures for the number of students expected to be on NA courses this year, because the projection is important in planning ahead for the workforce.

Long-term Plan for the NHS

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes a good point from her experience. There is agreement across the House—and, indeed, across both services—that there needs to be an integrated service. It is clearly not satisfactory to delineate in the way that we have done historically. How we get there will obviously be difficult. We need the NHS and local government to take the lead and to come up with proposals. If we believe that those proposals will deliver what we want without creating upheaval, it is incumbent on us all to get behind them.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

I welcome this additional contribution to the health service. However, have there been overoptimistic algorithms on improving productivity? We know that staff are currently stretched, and to expect continued productivity increases before we invest in modern technology will result in more staff leaving, and that would not be rational.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes an excellent point. We know that NHS staff do a wonderful job and work incredibly hard. In talking about productivity it is wrong to think of it only in terms of getting more out of the same people. The wage bill, I think, makes up around 40% of the total NHS spend, a great deal of which is on buildings, on items and on technology. We need to use more technology so that we can deliver the productivity gains that we need.

Education (Student Support) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my interests as listed in the register and I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on securing this debate.

I should like to put my contribution in context. At lunchtime I came back from Geneva, where I had been at the World Health Organization working with the International Council of Nurses, representatives from the Nursing Now campaign and the Chief Nursing Officer of the WHO in looking at the future of the profession. One of the big discussions was on the need to increase the number of nurses worldwide and to ensure that we have health security across the globe. A major topic of discussion was, not surprisingly, the re-emergence of Ebola in the Congo. At least one Health Minister asked me how, as a country, we could really justify a recent advertisement from, I believe, the Home Office, encouraging nurses with a two-year graduate qualification to come to this country.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has outlined the key concerns over extending the normal student maintenance regime to nursing students undertaking programmes at postgraduate level. As others have said, these programmes take two years, including theory and practice, and enable successful students to register as nurses with the NMC. I do not need to remind noble Lords that this is an intensive programme with significant periods of work in a practical setting.

The aim of introducing new systems of funding was to increase the number of nursing students, yet on undergraduate programmes this was not achieved in the 2017 intake, where a fall took place, particularly in applications for mental health and learning disability nursing courses. Why should there not be a similar fall in the number of students entering the postgraduate programmes this year if the change takes place? In effect, this would result in an even more significant drop in the number of nurses qualifying in 2020, in that the undergraduate numbers due to qualify in 2020 will be much lower than originally planned. If we could boost the postgraduate intake numbers for 2018, this could provide additional nurses ready for registration in 2020—just as they will be so desperately needed according to the NHS Five Year Forward View.

Therefore, does it not make sense to delay the implementation of the regulations while a systematic review of post-18 education funding is undertaken and retain the current system of funding for the group due to commence in 2018? This would provide us with an opportunity to run a campaign to increase the numbers for this year in the way that campaigns have been conducted to attract people to social work and teaching programmes in areas where there are similar staffing challenges.

We know that sufficient levels of registered nurses are critical for the health and social care system to ensure patient and client safety. The sombre reading of both the Francis report and the learning disabilities mortality review reminds us that not only do we need to retain our current staff but that we must train new nurses to further enhance the quality of our provision.

Graduates who enter postgraduate nursing programmes add value to our workforce, bringing a range of life skills. In particular, many mature entrants come into mental health nursing through the postgraduate route, and yet we know we are not meeting the numbers required to meet mental health services workforce demands.

I recognise that the Government have offered a new pay deal for nurses that may improve retention and recruitment and plan to offer golden hellos in some hard-to-recruit areas for nurses entering the profession, both of which I have expressed my support for and hope will be effective. However, until the new degree apprenticeship routes into nursing at both undergraduate and postgraduate level are properly designed and funded through the apprenticeship levy, I urge the Government to think again and to wait to introduce the reform we are discussing today.

NHS Providers reminds us that plans to boost the NHS workforce will take years to deliver, but to change this decision for at least one year would result in a larger cadre of nurses qualifying in only two years. I urge this because society expects us as policymakers to ensure safe healthcare in the NHS. This, I argue, cannot be achieved without a sufficient supply of newly qualified nurses and allied healthcare professionals.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I find the Government’s approach to NHS staff very perplexing indeed. They continually pay tribute to them, and I think they do understand the commitment of the workforce, yet repeatedly they take action that makes the life of nurses and other staff even more difficult than it is at the moment. At the same time, they make it more difficult for those nurses to guarantee the safety of patients in our NHS.

I congratulate my noble friend on drawing this SI to the attention of the House and allowing us an opportunity to debate this critical issue. In making my case today, I accept the points made by the noble Baronesses from the Liberals and the Cross Benches—they were absolutely right in the points that they made. But let us remind ourselves of the serious situation we are in. The points I am going to make now are agreed right across the National Health Service; points which every royal college and every responsible organisation in the health service agrees with.

The first point has been raised already: we are 40,000 nurses short, and the Government have a real responsibility for that. The number of nurses and midwives leaving the profession is greater than the number of those entering the profession—that is a recipe for disaster. We have critically relied not only on nurses from the far ends of the globe but especially on nurses from the European Union. Since the Brexit vote, they are deserting the National Health Service, and who can blame them?

Let me go right back to 2010, when this Government assumed office. That is when they started making massive errors, from which they have not recovered. Neither, critically, has the National Health Service. In an Answer to me, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, pointed out that, when they assumed office, there were more than 97,000 entrants to nursing courses. The coalition Government’s first response was cut, cut, cut, and by 2012 the figure had dropped from over 97,000 to 75,000, a drop of 22,000 nurses entering the profession in one year alone. The figure improves marginally but does not get much better for many years. When I say the Government are 40,000 nurses short, it is because of their mistake in 2012 in cutting the numbers of young people and older students entering the nursing profession. We have never recovered from that.

I accept the point that the Government want to widen the area of recruitment—I will come back to that—but, having made the mistake in 2012, only two years ago they scored another own goal by abolishing the bursary scheme and introducing a charge of over £9,000 a year for people training for the nursing profession. Last year that led to a drop of 705 students. I admit that is not the same as the 22,000 drop the Government were responsible for in 2012 but we cannot afford any drop whatever. Now, having created a serious recruitment policy, they are introducing even more costs into the system by this SI we are discussing today. It is affecting older graduate entrants, those who do postgraduate courses and usually graduate after about 18 months or two years, which is the quickest way to get qualified nurses, as we have already heard.

However, the Government do not seem to have learned anything. The point from the Liberal Front Bench was well made when the noble Baroness pointed out that the cost of training a postgraduate student was £33,500—a lot of money—but we should not forget the cost of the agency nurses needed to fill that vacancy. That £33,500 cost is less than the average annual premium paid by trusts for a full-time equivalent nurse filling a post that is vacant because of shortages. It is a false economy and yet the Government do not seem able to see the picture in the round, which is the position we should be looking at.

There are other ways in which the Government could ease the nursing situation. Instead of bringing forward SIs such as those we are discussing at the moment, if they have got a bursary scheme, as they have, why do they not write off the cost of repaying the student loan for nurses who have spent a number of years in the National Health Service? One of the Minister’s predecessors said that the Government were looking at a similar proposal for doctors but I never saw whether it materialised. However, that would be one way of equalising the situation.

Many nurses from European Union countries and other National Health Service workers have got permanent residence status to live in Britain. After five or six years, they were entitled to apply for permanent residency, and they got it. To me, and to most nurses, permanent residency means just that: you have residence in this country which is permanent, but the Government will not admit that. They say that the permanency may not be honoured after Brexit. That is a terrible thing to say. A British Government are breaking their word to people who work in the health service and give so much. Why not say that those people who have permanent residency can remain in this country permanently? That would do a lot to retain the confidence of EU nurses.

I shall finish with a word about financing nursing apprenticeships. As we have heard, the Government’s target of 1,000 apprentices in nursing has not only fallen short, it has fallen ridiculously short. The Minister may have more up-to-date information than either I or the Royal College of Nursing have, but its figures show that there are not 1,000 apprentice nurses, there are 30. Of course, one of the difficulties lies in the whole concept. An apprenticeship requires a mix of work on the ward and work in the classroom at university, but that is exactly what undergraduate nurses do at the moment. Over the three-year period, 50% of their time is spent working—I emphasise that word—on the wards. Why should they pay more than £9,000 when apprentices may get that for nothing—or is it nothing? The universities which provide the classroom opportunities for these apprenticeships tell me that they have no alternative but to charge for them. I do not think that the apprenticeship levy will cover it because they are talking in terms of £7,000 a year for apprentices to do the university courses for their apprenticeship. I wonder who is going to pay that £7,000. Is it to be the student, or is it the trusts which are already hard pressed, or is it the Government? Most of us would agree that it ought to be the Government. It is their baby, their scheme and how they see the gap being filled—their salvation to ease the nursing shortage. It is the Government’s responsibility.

We are debating a statutory instrument which shows how ill thought through and chaotic the Government’s policies are when it comes to nurse training in this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

If the noble Lord will let me finish, I will get to that point. Like other graduates, student nurses will be required to repay these government-funded loans only once they are in employment and earning. It is important to state that the student loan repayment terms are progressive. From April 2018, individuals will make their contribution to the system only when they are earning more than £25,000. Monthly repayments are linked to income, not to interest rates or the amount borrowed, and the outstanding debt is written off after 30 years.

I am not the Education Minister in this House, although I seem to be covering this topic not only tonight but in other forums, but it is important to underline that the reason this system was introduced into this country by a Labour Government, reaffirmed by a coalition Government and continued by a Conservative Government, is that it means that the best-earning graduates, instead of having their fees entirely paid by taxpayers, including people who have never gone to university, make a contribution to the costs incurred, whereas those who are lower-earning through their lives, including those who will perhaps never earn more than £25,000, will make no contribution. That is a more progressive system of funding than one in which everybody gets it for free, no matter how much money they make in their life.

As I said, these reforms give student nurses access to more financial support, albeit they have to pay that back if they can afford to do so later in life. It also provides a level playing field with other students. But perhaps most importantly of all, these actions released about £1 billion of funding to be reinvested in the NHS front line. As a consequence, Health Education England plans to increase the number of fully funded nurse training places by 25% from September 2018. It is important to stress that Health Education England has made that decision as an independent body to meet the need for more nurses that we all agree is there.

As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, pointed out, this equates to around 5,000 more places each year—a major and welcome boost to our much-admired nursing workforce. My background is largely in education and I assure the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, that we understand the urgency of this task and the parallels with education that he mentioned.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock]

Is that for the clinical placement funding?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

That is quite right. That is fully funded clinical placements—just for the sake of clarity. I thank the noble Baroness.

There is understandable concern among noble Lords, which has been expressed previously in this House, about the new system of financial support, but I want to be clear that we are giving the group of postgraduate students that we are discussing access to undergraduate maintenance and tuition fee loans, just as we do with postgraduate teachers. This represents a more generous package of support than the postgraduate master’s loan. We are also making available additional funding for childcare, travel to clinical placements and exceptional hardship funding to ensure that the students are fully supported and are able to complete their studies.

Furthermore, as many noble Lords have mentioned and as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, welcomed, in the debate on the regulations in the other place on 9 May, my honourable friend the Minister of State for Health set out a range of additional support that we are investigating for postgraduate nursing students. This includes specific incentives such as “golden hellos” for postgraduates who go to work in mental health—where the noble Lord, Lord Willis, was quite right that we need to attract more nursing and where there has been a shortfall—the area of learning disability and community nursing. The Government have announced £10 million to support such incentives and we are considering how this should be best delivered.

Many noble Lords have expressed concern about the drop in number of undergraduate applications to nursing courses. We acknowledge that early indications from the latest UCAS data, published in April, show that the number of students applying to study nursing has decreased from this point in the cycle last year. However, that cycle is not yet over, so we need to apply some caution.

It is also worth noting, as noble Lords have pointed out, that there is a distinction between the decline in number of applications and that in the number of students starting their courses. That was exemplified last year, which showed a 23% drop in the number of applications compared to a 3% decline in the number of acceptances. That is regrettable, but it was still the second-highest number of acceptances on record. Several noble Lords have expressed their desire for further information on how this develops. I can confirm that my department has committed to publish an update in autumn 2018 following the close of the 2017-18 application cycle.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, pointed out, there is a global challenge to recruit more nurses. We are working hard to make nursing as attractive a profession as possible. As a result of constructive dialogue over recent months, NHS Employers and the relevant trade unions began a consultation exercise on a three-year pay deal for NHS staff employed under the Agenda for Change contract. Under the plan, the starting salary of a nurse will rise to £24,907 by 2021, not only rewarding current staff for the incredible work they do but sending a clear signal to the country about how much nurses are valued.

We are boosting the attractiveness of the profession in a number of other ways, too. Nearly 4,500 nurses have started the return to practice programme and 3,000 have completed it. Across the country, NHS trusts are developing arrangements for flexible working and there is a concerted effort to tackle workplace bullying through an NHS-wide call to action. Our homes for staff programme is supporting NHS trusts to dispose of surplus land to help up to 3,000 nurses and other staff access affordable housing. I hope that gives the noble Lord, Lord Clark, some concrete examples to back up the warm words we use about supporting the nursing profession.

Several noble Lords have touched on new routes into nursing, which the Government are prioritising. The most significant innovation in this area was the announcement of a new nursing associate role in November 2016. Health Education England has already trained 2,000 nursing associates in a pilot programme and is planning to train up to 5,000 in 2018, with up to 7,500 nursing associates trained through the apprenticeship route in 2019. As well as creating a much-needed new role in its own right—I emphasise “in its own right”, as it is an augmentation to the nursing and other professions—nursing associate training offers an alternative route to becoming a registered nurse. We expect this “earn and learn” approach to be more attractive to older students, a concern which many noble Lords have raised.

To support this career path, Health Education England is developing a shortened nurse degree apprenticeship to facilitate transition from nurse associate to registered nurse, which will also automatically recognise the prior learning and experience gained in the nursing associate role. For the first time, apprentices will be able to work their way up from entry-level health work through to advanced clinical practice in nursing.

Several noble Lords expressed their concern about the apprenticeship route and the figure of only 30 nurses. The official data has been delayed and we believe that the figure is more like 250. We will be able to confirm that. It is a better start but, clearly, not yet the target that we want to reach. However, we believe that this stepped approach through the nursing associate role, giving the opportunities for a pause after two years and then to go on for two years, ought to be more attractive to employers than the current four-year commitment. This development of the nursing associate route therefore provides for a better use of the apprenticeship route.

I want to address a couple of what are perhaps misconceptions. The figure of 40,000 vacancies is used often in this House. I might be pedantic and disagree with that number—the quantum is just about right—but it is important to say that these are not empty places. They are being filled by agency and bank staff. Part of the reason for that is that people want flexibility and more pay, two of the things that we are trying to address so that we can provide more permanent contracts for those people who currently work flexibly.

The noble Lord, Lord Clark, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, talked about EU staff. I hope your Lordships will agree that I miss no opportunity to say from this Dispatch Box how much we value those staff and that they have just as much right to apply for settled status as anyone else in this country, provided they fit the criteria. However, it is worth pointing out that there are more EEA staff in the NHS than there were in June 2016. The one category where the figure is lower is in nursing and midwifery but the reason for that was the introduction of a more stringent language test. We are dealing with that issue, which I hope will mean that we continue to see an increase in EEA staff working in our NHS.

The noble Lord, Lord Willis, asked specific questions about the apprenticeship levy. I will need to write to him on that issue having consulted my colleagues in the Department for Education.

Turning quickly to the second point of the Motion, several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley, Lady Watkins and Lady Garden, and others said that we should postpone the introduction of the reforms until the post-18 education and funding review has been completed. As noble Lords know, the Prime Minister launched the review earlier this year to ensure that we have a better system of higher education support that works for everyone. Many aspects of the current system work well and, as was set out in the terms of reference for the review, there are important principles that the Government believe should remain in future. One of those is that sharing the cost between taxpayers and graduates is the right approach, as I rehearsed earlier in my speech.

I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about looking at the Welsh example. I have looked at it myself and I am sure it is something that the review would want to consider. However, it is important that we do not prejudice the work of the expert panel established to support the review or prejudge its outcomes. The fact of the review should not delay these healthcare education reforms, not least because they predate the launch of the review by some distance and already apply to the vast majority of nursing students. We believe it would do more harm than good to further delay these reforms, although it is worth underlining that any relevant reforms stemming from the review will apply equally to this group of student nurses.

In conclusion, I recognise the well-motivated concerns expressed by noble Lords during this debate. However, I hope I have been able to demonstrate that the student finance reforms that this Government have introduced have allowed both the removal of the artificial cap on nurse training places and the largest expansion of student nursing places in a single year ever seen. These two facts are not coincidental; they are inextricably linked. The latter is possible only because of the former and they form part of a wider set of workforce reforms designed to expand, train and reward our nursing profession better so that we can continue to deliver the high standards of NHS care that patients demand. On that basis, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will feel able to withdraw his Motion.

Carers: Back Pay Liability

Baroness Watkins of Tavistock Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

On the extra £2 billion of funding, I have not tried to link it with this; it is of course at the discretion of local authorities to use that to support the social care sector in the way they see fit. It is worth pointing out that Allied Healthcare is in this social care compliance scheme. My honourable friend the Minister for Care has written to it to express her disappointment at the approach it has outlined. Its liabilities have not crystallised yet, so it is not right for it to refuse that and she has written to it to demand clarification. However, clearly we understand that the clock is ticking and that there is an urgency to this.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain what the legal liability is of commissioners who commissioned care services based on the previous costs?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

That is an excellent question and I will write to the noble Baroness with an answer to it.