Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Buscombe

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, listening to this debate and a debate on the previous amendments, some of which I was listening to on my screen elsewhere, I say we must not lose sight of just what an incredibly difficult task our intelligence services and police face in relation to counterterrorism. As I said at Second Reading, we do not know all that the intelligence services know. We must not tie their hands too much and be too prescriptive. I suggest that these powers are not being sought lightly. We have to be really careful when we debate “how many hours” and “as soon as possible” in Committee to step back now and again to remind ourselves why we are here and what we are debating.

With specific reference to these amendments, I have some sympathy with my noble friend Lady Hamwee in relation to “possession” or,

“under his or her control”.

That sounds more all-encompassing; perhaps that comes from my legal background as well. It would be good to hear the Minister’s view on this.

In relation to Amendment 11, “evidence”, “as soon as possible” and “12 hours” have been mentioned. We need to give the security services the freedom—if that is the right word—to be able to do their job and need to trust them to some considerable degree to do the right job. I worry about the reference to statistics and so on in relation to later amendments in this group. Of course we must be concerned about discrimination but at the same time how can we know—and how can my noble friend the Minister, with respect, stand here today and say—how many times we think these measures will be sought or used? We are in an incredibly difficult place at the moment on a global level. We have to do all we can to protect our citizens and collaborate with others across international boundaries to ensure to the best of our ability that we can counter terrorism. In that case, we should not ask for statistics at this stage. I understand where and why statistics look good and that we can look back and say that this made sense or that did not, or that it looks as if we have overused this or that power. Let us give the freedom necessary for the security services to do the job properly or to the best of their ability in the most difficult circumstances, remembering also that the circumstances have changed considerably since our last counterterrorism Bill. We are now in a situation where the speed to be able to act is absolutely of the essence, given that so much of this relates to information and evidence coming from possibly multiple sources and often digitally, in which case with enormous speed. We are asking our security services to act in response to that speed and the speed with which the perpetrators, those who we are seeking to prevent from carrying out terrorist acts, are able to act against us.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Buscombe makes some incredibly important points, many of which I agree with. Like her I pay tribute to the huge work done by our intelligence services, which are overseen by a very thorough oversight process. Noble Lords will be aware that not all services are perfect and mistakes can be made and it is therefore important that all our services, including our intelligence services, work within parameters.

The lawyer in me always says when I look at legislation, “What is the mischief we are trying to fix?”. When we pass legislation it is important that we bear that in mind. While I accept that these are difficult times and it is important to make sure that we are protected, it is also important that we ensure that we do not make the challenges we face worse. Huge progress has been made under this Government with the reform to stop-and-search powers. There has been progress in the right direction with many communities that felt alienated by the use of such powers and felt that their co-operation with, for example, the police would have been so much better had the powers not been exercised in a way that led to profiling and discrimination. We are all aware of arrests made under terrorism legislation that did not lead to charge and charges that did not lead to convictions. The numbers were so overwhelming at one moment that it appeared the powers were being in used in a way that was doing more harm than good. In those circumstances it is important for us to ensure—not just because discrimination is wrong and we should fight it—that in exercising these powers we do not discriminate and make the problem worse. In those circumstances I support many of the comments made by my noble friend Lady Hamwee and the noble Lord, Lord Harris.

Burma

Debate between Baroness Warsi and Baroness Buscombe

Thursday 28th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, the sanctions were suspended in April last year, and it was made clear at that stage that they would be lifted only if the Burmese Government was measured positively against the benchmarks set by the Council conclusions of earlier that year. Those benchmarks are that there should be free and fair elections, and that there needed to be progress on political prisoners and ethnic reconciliations. These matters will be discussed again in April this year but, as the noble Baroness is aware, for those sanctions to remain suspended or not to be lifted requires unanimity at the EU level. We in the United Kingdom will be pressing for those measures, those benchmarks, to be tested against the Burmese record.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, can the Government explain what they are doing to resolve the plight of the Rohingya?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend raises an important question. The Rohingya have been described as some of the most wretched people because of the way in which they have been abused over many years. They are left in a situation where real questions are being raised by the Burmese Government about their citizenship. The Minister responsible for Burma, Hugo Swire, visited Rakhine and met leaders of the Rohingya community. Last week, I was in Bangladesh and became the first British Minister to visit the Rohingya refugee camp at Cox’s Bazar, in Bangladesh. We are looking at the problem from both sides of the border. Ultimately, however, the issue of citizenship of the Rohingya people is what needs to resolved. There is a history of these people being in Burma for the past 200 years. They now need to be recognised.