Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord Warner

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I rise even more briefly to support Amendment 116. It is worth reminding the Minister and the House that the Government Statistical Service is independent. It was made so by the Blair Government so that Ministers could not withhold, distort or delay the publication of uncomfortable statistics. Rebukes on dodgy statistics secure public reprimands of Ministers and departments.

The logic of this position is that you do not put the collection or publication of health statistics in the hands of an operational arm’s-length body, particularly because there could be a conflict of interest. That point has already been made. These functions should be left in the hands of an independent non-operational body, which is what the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, does. Can the Minister explain why the Government are making this change? My instinct is to be mightily suspicious.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I simply rise to say that I agree with all noble Lords who have spoken and look forward to the Minister’s reply.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord Warner

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, it is a delight to follow the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Hunt, on this set of amendments, with which I totally agree. I want to dilate for a few moments on the realpolitik of being a Minister in the great, august organisation called the Department of Health and Social Care. I can say some things that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, as a former elected Minister, possibly cannot.

When I ceased to be a Parliamentary Secretary and was promoted to work with the big boys and girls as a Minister of State, and had to deal with issues such as reconfiguration, poor performance and so forth, I became used to regularly meeting elected MPs who wanted to tell me about the errors of their ways in decisions that had been taken in the public interest. There was a steady flow of them, which, if I may say, tended to get bigger the nearer you got to an election. If people wanted to go through the archives, I would refer them to the history of Lewisham Hospital and of Chase Farm Hospital, to name but two.

Very often in these situations, it is not about closing a whole hospital but about re-engineering—we will come to some of this in the next group. I give the example of stroke services in London. It is re-engineering a particular set of services, which the local MP is then put up for trying to ensure that change does not happen. That is where you need to help Ministers do the right thing, when it is in the public interest to make changes. The amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, help Ministers do the right thing.

The point the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, made is absolutely valid. In many of these circumstances, it becomes very difficult if you are an elected Minister—as distinct from an appointed Minister, who does not have to face the electorate—to resist some of the local pressures to avoid change which would be disadvantageous to a local hospital. For those realpolitik reasons, I think the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is on the right track and we should support the amendments.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. Clauses 39 and 64 give the widest possible powers of intervention to the Secretary of State and even the power to delegate that power to someone else. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords clearly believe that the Government are going too far, hence the large number of amendments in this and the next group.

I believe that the Clause 39 powers could justifiably be used only in the case of some cataclysmic failure of the NHS. There are four questions to ask. Is it possible that the Secretary of State would ever need these powers of intervention at an operational level, given that he already has the mandate? Does the Secretary of State have any other powers which could be used prior to this atomic bomb of a power? Has the NHS survived well enough over the last 10 years without the Secretary of State having such powers? Does Clause 39 upset the balance between the Secretary of State and the autonomy of NHS England? I think the answers are no, yes, yes and yes—your Lordships can work it out.

The Health and Social Care Act 2012 removed the Secretary of State from this sort of meddling. I thought at the time that it might also avoid him or her taking the blame for failure, but that was just me being cynical and there has actually been no failure of political accountability over the last 10 years. The ninth report of the House of Lords Constitution Committee refers to this issue. It notes that, in 2011, it

“raised concerns that that Bill could erode ministerial responsibility due to the proposed duty on the Secretary of State to promote autonomy for persons exercising functions in relation to the health service. What is now section 5 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 was amended, such that the Secretary of State instead must have regard to the desirability of securing autonomy. This helps ensure a balance between enabling those providing health care services to deliver services in a manner that they consider appropriate, whilst ensuring ministerial responsibility.”

The Constitution Committee believes that, in combination with Clause 64, the powers taken for the Secretary of State by Clause 39 would undermine that autonomy and upset the balance. They also risk

“undermining accountability by making it more difficult to understand which body is responsible for a particular function of the NHS.”

The fact is that the Secretary of State already has the power to change the mandate of NHS England—as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, pointed out—to adjust its funding or to bring political pressure upon it to behave in certain ways, without the need for the powers in this clause. Indeed, I think it would be very unwise to use these powers, and he or she will certainly get the blame if it all goes pear-shaped. The Bill, as has already been pointed out in some detail by noble Lords, the DPRRC and the Constitution Committee, gives the Government considerable regulatory and guidance powers, about half of which allow no parliamentary scrutiny at all. Does that not give the Secretary of State enough ability to ensure things are done in the way the Government wish? The Secretary of State already wants to be Henry VIII; does he also want to be King Herod?

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord Warner

Lords Hansard - Part 3 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I want to briefly make clear my support for this group of amendments and try to be consistent with what I said on the previous group. The only amendment which causes me to have pause for thought is Amendment 183. The NHS, perfect in every form of course, has been known to have its arteries fur up occasionally. Sometimes there is a need for scale in some services. I want to mention three or four services where scale, after clinical consideration, is important. Pathology is a good example, where we need to have more scale than many of the local pathology departments. Another one, which the Royal College of Surgeons has advocated, is elective surgery hubs, which may mean taking stuff away from a particular local hospital. Another good example is the issue of stroke specialisation, which is beneficial for patients. I have given you three examples where we do not want to totally neutralise the Secretary of State. Sometimes Ministers have a use; it may be few and far between, but occasionally they have some use. We do not want to say that you cannot ever be a catalyst for change. That seems a bit drastic in Amendment 183, and I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, to think about that, because sometimes scale is important, with clinical advice for the benefit of patients.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I am in favour of surgical excision. I oppose the powers of the Secretary of State in Clause 40 and Schedule 6 to intervene in decisions on reconfiguration of health services. Far be it from me to want to protect Conservative Secretaries of State for Health from themselves, but I warn that if they use these powers they will eventually get the blame.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, gave a number of very good reasons why this clause should be deleted from the Bill. My reason is somewhat different. I think these powers are very dangerous. We have recently seen how the Government’s powers to provide or withdraw funding from a proposal, let us say, to build a new school or improve infrastructure in a particular constituency have got them into trouble. We have heard allegations made against Government Whips by Members of Parliament of actions which could be criminal offences of bribery. It is alleged that, in seeking to ensure support for their leader, they are threatening Members of Parliament that funding for their projects, which have already been declared to be in the public interest of their constituents, will be withdrawn unless they behave in a certain way, so political considerations would trump public interests.

Like the former Member of Parliament to whom the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred, all politicians know that the provision of a new hospital or clinic or, on the contrary, the closing of a healthcare setting are very sensitive considerations in elections. All parties ensure that the voters know their views on these matters at election time and in between elections. The Prime Minister knows this. Why else would he put such emphasis on his promise of 40 so-called new hospitals by 2030 if this were not the case? It makes a good headline, even if we know that some of them are not new and some of them are not hospitals.

The powers of reconfiguration sought by the Secretary of State in Clause 40 would give the Government the ability to change the decisions of those put in place locally and well qualified to make them in a non-partisan and needs-based way, thus allowing the Government to wield unwarranted political power. It is probable that this Government would not be able to resist doing so, for the wrong reasons, and it is incumbent on all parties to stop them by deleting Clause 40 from the Bill. Indeed, I do not think that I would be in favour of giving these powers to any Government of any political party; they are just too liable to be misused.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord Warner

Committee stage
Thursday 20th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

Before the Minister responds to that, can I amplify what is being refused here by the Government? As I understand it, he is trying to rely on the Care Act to get local government to co-operate and integrate care with the great elephant, the NHS. This is asking a minor player to take on a major player with far more resources. Amendment 89, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, makes the NHS come back every two years about the outcomes. That is a fairly modest challenge to the NHS and I fail to understand why the Government cannot simply accept that in principle and then negotiate the drafting.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I am so sorry to delay the Minister again, but briefly. After we have pushed this Bill through Parliament, we will have an integration Bill and a White Paper and legislation on social care. When we have had this, those and those, can we come back to this?