Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, about the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. I am sure that we all send her our very best wishes.

I speak on the amendments tabled by my noble friend the Minister. However, on a quick clarification on something that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said in the last debate, which is germane to this debate, I was not making the point that I believe that there can be trade-offs between safety and attractiveness as the Bill currently defines it. Rather it was around the effectiveness and efficacy of medicines and medical devices—points that were, thankfully, made much more clearly by my noble friend Lord Lansley than they were by me—and the impact on what that means for safety and its overridingness as a priority, even if it is always our most important consideration.

On the substance of the amendments, I am sure that my noble friend was not expecting complete consensus around his amendments and he certainly has not found it yet. However, I applaud him for his clarifications on the impact of the attractiveness subsection and also applaud him for moving so quickly in response to noble Lords’ concerns. None the less, there is an issue around this, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, brought out. It is an unfortunate truth that the NHS has a poor history of performance in scaling up innovative medicines and devices. I know that that is something that my noble friend is very concerned about.

I have a specific question in this area. In asking it, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests, in particular as an adviser to Healthy.io. Do my noble friend’s plans for improving the attractiveness of the UK include improving the attractiveness of the UK as a place to develop, trial and scale data-driven health technologies? I know that we will come to that topic later, when the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has his amendments, but can my noble friend confirm that they are included in the definition of devices and explain his intentions in this regard?

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this group begins with the Government’s minimal attempt to define the word “attractiveness” in Clause 1(2)(c). I am afraid that I preferred the version in Amendment 20 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and others. I think that it became clear to the Minister in meetings before Second Reading and in the debate itself that many of us felt that a word such as “attractiveness”, which is very unusual in a piece of health legislation, requires a clear definition in the Bill.

“Attractiveness” is one thing, if properly defined, but “ambition” is another. That is what my noble friends Lord Sharkey and Lady Jolly—to whom I send my best wishes—seek to do in Amendment 15, for human medicines, Amendment 58 for veterinary medicines and Amendment 78 for medical devices. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Sharkey will say more about these in a few moments. But if Brexit must happen, which unfortunately it must, there is really no point if it does not allow us to do better than we have done before. That is why inserting the words “maintaining or improving” is so important. As others have said, the UK has hitherto been a very attractive place to conduct clinical trials, partly because of our massive access to patients through the NHS, partly because of our expertise and high standards and partly because of our alignment with the EU and its 400 million citizens.

This is particularly important for rare diseases, where the numbers of sufferers in the UK alone are too small for a trial of statistical significance. Alignment with the EU is, therefore, particularly important for maintaining our attractiveness, and this is dealt with by other amendments that the Committee will debate later. However, we should be wary of throwing away the advantage of that alignment; to do so would give us a much bigger mountain to climb if we are to improve our attractiveness. I hope that the Minister will bear that in mind when he replies.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 19th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support the attempts in this group to put a sunset clause into the Bill. I have a great deal of sympathy with the demands of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for consolidation. It is vital that through these amendments and others to later clauses, we are able to review the use of the Bill’s powers by this failed Government, who have made so many mistakes. A Government who cannot even secure the free trade agreement that was supposed to be the easiest thing ever, who disastrously and expensively have not produced the promised world-beating test and trace system and who have presided over one of the worst rate of Covid-19 deaths in Europe due to their dithering and failure to put health first, must have their powers fettered. But, as has been said, this is a skeleton Bill and gives the Government extensive powers with little ability for Parliament to intervene.

A lot is changing. The Brexit transition phase is coming to an end in a couple of months. We have learned many lessons from Covid-19, which should be implemented. The NICE review is coming up, and every month new medicines and therapies are coming on to the market. It would be folly not to have a sunset clause in the Bill. I therefore support what was said by my noble friends Lady Jolly and Lady Thornton, and urge the Government to consider, in all humility, that in two or three years’ time they may not be in power, and the whole landscape will have changed. It is therefore essential that we have an opportunity to review how the powers in the Bill have been used to change things, especially if all has not gone well.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

My Lords, I point out to noble Lords my interests as set out in the register. On Second Reading, when taking a somewhat unfashionable stance in defence of the delegated powers, I said that I was not going to die on that hill again—but, to mix my metaphors, I have been drawn, like a moth to a flame, back into this argument.

I want to make two brief points. The first has been perfectly well made already by my noble friend Lord Lansley, and is about the sheer impracticality of sunsetting legislation. Committing to an arbitrary deadline of that kind is not something that any Government could responsibly do, particularly at this time, and given the uncertainty that has already been discussed.

The second point is that many of the criticisms raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and by the Constitution Committee have been dealt with, to some extent, by changes that the Minister, my noble friend Lord Bethell, has proposed to the affirmative procedure, which we are not discussing today. It is therefore worth recognising the progress that the Government have already made to try to meet those concerns, which were set out so well by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and others, about the powers being given to the Government.

Again echoing my noble friend Lord Lansley, I would say that if we were to go down that route, the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, represent the right approach, which is to commit not to a sunset clause, with all the cliff edges that that would involve, but to providing draft consolidated legislation. There is a good case in its own right for doing that, particularly in the circumstances. Like my noble friend Lord Lansley, I encourage my noble friend the Minister to look seriously at that idea.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

My Lords, my only intention in speaking on this group is to ask a question. Given the flag raised by my noble friend Lord Lansley in his Amendment 76, I am glad that I am not the only one with the question, which is whether the concept of medical devices inherently includes their therapeutic usage. My understanding is that they are regulated as medical devices, not simply devices, and therefore the way in which we regulate and risk-stratify them as we regulate them inherently includes therapeutic use. The fact that my noble friend raised the question in his amendment made me slightly worried, so I seek the Minister’s reassurance on that point.

I have also become aware during this discussion of another issue worth considering. There has been some debate about the appropriateness of government amendments being approved in Committee. I concur with the view of my noble friend Lord Lansley that a Bill on which only half the Front Benchers agree is better than one on which none agree. I have been in my noble friend’s shoes and have been frustrated, as I know noble Lords opposite have been, by the need to stick to concession strategies, holding back concessions and amendments until Report. I do not agree with that approach. My noble friend has done absolutely the right thing in bringing forward amendments at the earliest possible opportunity, however imperfect they are. The problem with leaving everything to Report is that it is an all-or-nothing approach, as we do not tend to amend at Third Reading, whereas this potentially leaves open the iterative approach that I would like to see more of. Maybe my noble friend has even set a precedent, heaven forbid, in doing this. We would all welcome it as giving more than one opportunity to improve legislation, on Report. I hope that we can agree the government amendments because, as everyone has said, they are an improvement on where we were and we would have another opportunity, if the House felt it necessary, to improve them further on Report.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 5, which would insert the words

“objective of safeguarding public health by promoting the availability and supply of human medicines”.

While the purpose of the Bill is to bring some sort of order out of the chaos of Brexit, it is vital that we put those words up front. In the first words on page 1, before Clause 1, the purpose of the Bill is described as

“the protection of health and safety, in relation to medical devices”.

Why does it not say, “in relation to medicines and medical devices”? That is why we need Amendment 5.

Government Amendments 2 and 7 are weak, in my view. For example, the words “promote health and safety” in Amendment 2 and “considering whether they would” in Amendments 7 and 72 are well meaning and better than the original but, I dare to say, legally useless.

The word “promote” also appears in government Amendment 68. In contrast, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, use the much stronger word “safeguard” in their Amendment 70, which I support. I also support their probing amendment for clarification in Amendment 76 that therapeutic practice is also included. I will be interested to hear whether the Minister can explain whether this is needed or, perhaps, not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O’Shaughnessy (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, got to the heart of this when she said that these discussions are central to our debate on the Bill and its purpose.

I preface my comments on the amendments by drawing on my experience as a Minister with responsibility for preparing the health and social care sector for Brexit and for medicine regulation. During that time, I spent hours and hours—days and days—of time with pharma and medical device companies, patients and others. There was a consistent message from almost all of them about the desirability of remaining part of the EU family if possible and the importance of the MHRA and our notified bodies as regulators within that regime. I, together with others, worked extremely hard to make sure that that was recognised in the withdrawal agreement that was agreed at the time. We managed to create a special category of safety products. For those who remember back two or three years, there were chemicals, pharmaceuticals and medical devices in the withdrawal agreement and, indeed, the political declaration. I worked very hard to achieve that position and supported it.

It might also be worth reminding noble Lords that Parliament passed up the opportunity to agree that withdrawal agreement. It did not succeed. That has led to a different Government with a different agenda and with a majority, which might be something for us all to reflect on.

I make those points only so that noble Lords will understand that my concerns with the amendments on aligning with the EMA and European regulation in general are not ideological but practical. Actually, this is a very heterogenous group of amendments: it ranges from alignment through to collaboration to similarity where possible. When considering the issues around this, we need to tread very carefully as to what we commit ourselves to. The fact is that, as negotiations have progressed, it has become completely clear that the European Commission will not tolerate any meaningful associate membership: you are either in or you are out, and there is no possibility of the UK participating in making the rules that bind it. Clearly, being in is not compatible with leaving the European Union, so the question that falls to us is what we do when we are out. What should we do as a sovereign regulator that is not part of the EMA?

This is where I disagree with those amendments that seek to align us with the EMA. The truth is that we cannot have the best of both worlds; we cannot—as the Prime Minister might put it—have our cake and eat it. We cannot be in and take advantage of the opportunities that being out gives us. Tying ourselves in advance and in perpetuity to EU regulation over which we have no control or, critically, judgment of quality, would be a big mistake.

It is quite right that we should seek to mitigate the negative impacts of leaving the EMA family. I have never sought to sugar-coat those—I do not take a Panglossian view of the consequences—but tying ourselves in such a way is not the way to do it. Multiple stringent regulators in the world do just as good a job, if not better, as our MHRA—in Japan, Switzerland, Canada, Singapore and bits of the EFTA. We should as a nation be seeking to accept licensing applications and modelling our regulatory structures on all and any of those that we think are the best. That is the way to take advantage of our freedoms and give us the best possible opportunity of getting innovative medicines and products as they come on to market in any market in the world.

We do not need, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others, said, to create our own bespoke, novel, difficult regulatory system that puts up more barriers to innovation; nor should we tie ourselves to one other regulatory regime. I use just one example to exemplify why I think that is true. It is a well-worn example but is worth rehearsing: the introduction of the HPV vaccine. That was something that most regulators in the EMA family did not want to proceed with. The MHRA provided a very compelling case for us to do so. European countries did so. The effect of that in England alone has been to reduce HPV infections among 16 to 21 year-old women—the figures are a couple of years out of date but are probably still accurate—by 86%. Bear in mind that HPV causes 80% of cervical cancers among women. We might be tying ourselves to things that we regret and which cause harm; I know that that is not something that anyone would want to do.

I note from the ABPI’s briefing—obviously, I have worked closely with it—that it does not call for alignment with the EMA. It calls for making sure that

“the information or data required by the EU regulator is consistent with other leading regulators around the world and benchmarked against them for speed and approval.”

It also calls for the UK to apply for full membership of the ICH, as the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, calls for—I quite agree with that—and generally to look to provide leadership on developing global regulatory standards in human medicines.

I utterly understand the impulse. The Government have partly got themselves into this difficult situation by creating a vacuum into which people are seeking to put policy. That is completely understandable but it would be a mistake to tie ourselves to one particular regulator. It may not be quite as true of clinical trials—I defer to the expertise of others—although I note that the ABPI briefing paper does not talk about the clinical trials directive; instead, it uses a much broader palette and says that future clinical trials and regulations in the UK should both support and enable international collaboration.

I know that that is not the only position and that people take a different view, but as we move forward, we will want to tread carefully over which regulators we seek to collaborate with, emulate and draw on, rather than tying ourselves to an in-perpetuity relationship that we may come to regret on occasion.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, Amendment 3 makes clear the desirability of alignment with the EMA and the EU clinical trials regulations. It sets out early in the Bill the store for those of us who feel that the advantages we have gained from such alignment must not be sacrificed on the altar of some mistaken ideology of this failed Government. I point out to the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, that we managed to introduce the HPV vaccine before we left the European Union.

Amendment 22 attempts to define the rather vague expression “attractiveness”. We have other definitions in later clauses; we certainly need to choose one of them but I will leave my preference for a later debate.

I support Amendments 34 to 39 to Clause 4 on clinical trials. As my noble friend Lord Sharkey pointed out, they tighten up the wording in the Bill to emphasise the benefits and avoid the damage of diversion from EU clinical trials regulations. British patients benefit from alignment, British bioscience research and development benefits, and the whole system is worth millions of pounds to the Exchequer. I and other noble Lords have received briefings from a number of organisations working on behalf of patients, such as the British Heart Foundation, emphasising that any diversion from these regulations will affect the rapid availability of new medicines and treatments to British patients. They are also concerned to protect the large amount of EU research funding that they currently receive. Diversion could also affect, to use the Government’s favourite word, the attractiveness of the UK as a place to conduct clinical trials. The problem is that the Government have not told us what they might want to change unilaterally in future, as a number of noble Lords have pointed out. I invite the Minister to tell us now.

Amendment 39 asks the Government to establish a clinical trials portal that aligns us with the EMA regulations for medicines for rare diseases. This is particularly important if we are independent from the EU as our population of 68 million is so much smaller than the EU population of more than 400 million, which would make it harder to find a big enough cohort of people with rare diseases for a clinical trial. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, pointed that out.

The EU clinical trials portal, which will come into play with the new and improved EU clinical trials regulations in 2022, was to a great extent designed by British participants. This shows how important it is considered to be by British scientists because it makes applications for clinical trials so much easier and less time-consuming. In its previous inquiry, the Science and Technology Committee heard from a number of witnesses about the issues with the current system, which wastes a lot of their time. So, like the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, I feel sad to know that we will be out of the system by the time the improvements are put in place.

Our current alignment also encourages British scientists to go abroad to broaden their expertise and EU scientists to come here and become part of our very successful research teams. I know the Government are in favour of that because I heard Amanda Solloway, the Science Minister in BEIS, say so last week to your Lordships’ Science and Technology Select Committee. I hope, therefore, the Minister will be minded to accept the amendment.

Childhood Obesity

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I agree with the noble Lord about the importance of the issue and I am grateful to him for the role he has played in bringing that relationship together. He knows very well that the BBC has played a critical role over decades in many very important health campaigns, such as on HIV or the “Just Say No” campaign on drugs. The BBC is absolutely committed. Of course, it would be inappropriate for Ministers to lean on the BBC, which has editorial independence that I am sure we are all anxious to protect. However, it is committed to doing more. It is doing a number of activities through its programming, including the “Blue Peter” cooking club, various CBBC programmes and so on. I do not think anyone doubts the BBC’s commitment to this, and we will see the fruits of that soon, I am sure.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that food economists have calculated that, calorie for calorie, fruit, vegetables and high-quality proteins are much more expensive than foods high in carbohydrate and fat? Is it surprising that poor parents find that they have to fill up their children with those foods that eventually often lead to obesity? The structural underpinning of this problem is poverty, which goes much wider than the Minister’s department. It should be a whole-government issue. What are the Government doing about that?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I absolutely recognise the problem that the noble Baroness has pointed out. The prevalence of childhood obesity doubles between the least deprived and the most deprived areas. The Government are committed to reducing that deprivation gap and taking a broad range of actions to combat poverty, none more so than making sure that everybody has the chance to work, which is why we have more people in employment than has ever been the case.

Blood Safety and Quality (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 12th December 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank both noble Baronesses for their questions. I do not quite agree that this is a waste of time; after all Parliament voted both for a referendum and for a withdrawal Act, so we have to prepare for every eventuality even when we hope that they will not happen. This SI is particularly important for the continuity of this important medical product.

To deal with the questions posed by the noble Baronesses, communication with agencies is absolutely happening. It is being co-coordinated by NHS blood and transport—sorry, I always say “blood and transport” because it transports the blood; I mean NHS Blood and Transplant—as well as the relevant agencies in the devolved Administrations. We know that sometimes relationships between the DAs and Westminster can be strained, but I think it is fair to characterise them as being positive and co-operative on this and other health-related issues. We are making sure that all agencies are involved in that process, with central co-ordination and collaboration and consent from the DAs.

Regarding reassurance for people with rare diseases in respect of imports, the whole point here is that we would be operating to the same standards as the EU. In a no-deal scenario, we would also be accepting, as it were, the regulatory standards and approvals of the EU to ensure that such products were not impeded on their way into our country. As the Committee will know, a range of activities are going on to ensure continuity of supply through the borders.

On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, there is nothing untoward about my comment that there is no policy change at this moment. The critical point here is that under the Bill we are limited to technical changes to address flaws in the legislation that emerge as a result of technical flaws moving from one situation to another. Of course any future Government can change policy; I cannot bind the hands of any Government of any kind in future years. However, I can tell noble Lords that we have no intention of watering down the standards, so please be reassured on that point.

On the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about when this would happen, in a no-deal scenario it would happen from 30 March 2019, so it would be from day one onwards.

I turn to the remaining issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. In Wales we effectively have a single market in blood products—that is one way of putting it—all working to agreed standards. From that point of view, there is no difference in the products that are used in different domains. I understand her point about hip replacements but I am not sure that it is an exact analogy. Of course the beauty of devolution is that we have choice and experimentation.

Lastly, on the important point about communications with the EU, the reason why that has been removed is that it is a reciprocal obligation. Obviously it is illogical to have a reciprocal obligation that can be fulfilled only by one side.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I accept that, of course, but what I want to know is what is going to be put in its place.

Breast Scans

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 19th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the Question and the spur to ask the advisory committee to look at this issue. She is quite right about the experience. It can be painful. As she pointed out, it is the experience of pain that puts some women off taking up their appointments. Around half a million each year do not take up the appointments they are invited to. That is obviously a problem if we want a comprehensive screening programme. I will make sure that the advisory committee not just considers the evidence for use of them, but looks at how we can get qualitative evidence from women to inform their use across the country.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister encourage the NHS to do some proper research with the women who do not turn up for a mammogram when invited to do so and bear in mind that there is more than one reason why? In my case it is the very sharp edge of the plate that sticks under your armpit. It is really extremely painful. Will he agree that such discomfort should not discourage women from attending mammograms, which are so very important for saving thousands of lives, including my own?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Absolutely. I completely agree with the noble Baroness. Indeed, breast cancer screening saves 1,300 women’s lives every year. It is an essential part of our health system. On why women do not turn up, Professor Sir Mike Richards is reviewing all the cancer screening programmes at the moment. I will specifically put that question to him to ask him to investigate it.

Domestic Abuse: General Practitioner Charges

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I agree with the noble Lord. I feel uncomfortable with the idea of these letters being charged for. They have been identified by the Ministry of Justice and MHCLG as barriers to accessing support for victims of domestic violence. That cannot be right, and we are seeking to end that situation. GPs are independent contractors and therefore have that freedom unless it is specifically prohibited in their contracts, and that is what we are seeking.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, while supporting the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, perhaps I may point out that next week sees the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. Will the Government celebrate the day and the end of austerity by funding more refuges and services for victims of domestic violence? This is necessary because during the recent years of austerity many refuges, which offered hundreds of safe places for women and their families, have been closed.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I can reassure the noble Baroness that we will celebrate that day. I think this Prime Minister has done more than any to clamp down on domestic violence and to support victims. That was shown in the £100 million that was set aside to support victims of domestic violence in a number of innovative ways. I can further reassure her that, as I understand it, the number of beds in refuges has increased over the past few years.

Government Vision on Prevention

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, at last we have a Secretary of State who has been listening to my speeches over the years, or perhaps, more realistically, he has come to the same conclusion all by himself that the NHS is unsustainable with the changing demographics and higher demand unless we do something to prevent the 40% of illnesses that are preventable. I am therefore delighted to welcome the Secretary of State’s new focus on prevention.

However, he said in his speech yesterday that it is difficult to divert money into prevention unless funding is rising, because otherwise you will be taking money from treatment. Well, funding is rising. The Minister spoke about diverting part of the extra £20 billion for the NHS into prevention, but that is only part of the answer. This a whole-government problem. People do not live in hospitals or GP surgeries. They live in cities with polluted air, often in overcrowded and damp homes, in areas with too many fast-food outlets and too few fruit and vegetable shops where the local sports centre or swimming pool has closed. They are stressed about paying the bills on low wages or benefits.

Then there are lifestyle decisions. Often when people are in their own homes or the local pub, they smoke or send out for a high-fat and high-salt takeaway or drink too much alcohol. Many do not take enough exercise. They are subjected to large amounts of TV advertising for the wrong kind of food and drink, and far too many ads encourage them to gamble. None of this is good for their physical or mental health.

My point is that the organisations that can help them with this are often not the NHS or wider national government, although both can do a lot. I am speaking about local authorities, whose overall funding, particularly for public health services, has been cut since July 2015 and is projected to carry on being cut. Does the Minister think that this is in line with the Secretary of State’s vision? There is evidence that sexual health services, sports centres and weight management services have closed. Smoking, alcohol and drugs prevention and treatment services have been discontinued. Does the Minister not agree that some of the new funding should be diverted from the NHS into local authorities and ring-fenced to allow them to reinstate and widen these services? Of course, NHS professionals must be involved, but this should come under the public health responsibility of local authorities, where it correctly lies.

Councils run as many of these good services as they can but they cannot afford as many as are needed to stall the national epidemic of obesity and other preventable health problems. According to a systematic review of the available evidence, published online in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, every £1 spent on public health saves £14 on average, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. In some cases, significantly more than that is saved. We should listen to such a meaty piece of research. Local directors of public health claim that they can spend money more efficiently than the NHS to prevent ill health. Why not fund them to do so?

Turning to two other matters, I applaud the Secretary of State’s initiatives for people with learning difficulties; I strongly wish them well. However, the Minister will understand from my background in cannabis-based medicines that I am still very concerned about the too-restrictive guidance that has been published on prescribing pharmaceutical-grade cannabis-based medicines. It seems that there is still a bureaucratic nightmare for patients who thought that the Government’s recent relaxation of regulations meant that their troubles were over. I fear we do not have time now to go into this in detail, but I welcome the intention expressed in the Statement to get it right. What further reassurance can the Minister give me that clinicians will be given the information from patients and other countries to enable them to make sensible prescribing decisions—not just for Sativex and Epidiolex? Can he assure me that it will not have to be done as a last resort when a lot of licensed drugs with nasty side-effects have already been tried unsuccessfully?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Thornton, for their questions. I concur completely with their point that the NHS is not sustainable if it is a national hospital service, which the Secretary of State was trying to get across yesterday. He used the stark figures of £97 billion being spent each year on treating illness and only £8 billion on preventing it. Clearly, we need a shift there. Investing more money makes that shift easier; I am glad that the House recognises that we are doing that.

Before I get on to the specifics of responsibility for health, I concur with the idea that this is a whole-government challenge. It is also a societal challenge; it is not just for government to make this happen. It is about people as well, as the Secretary of State said in his point about personal and family responsibilities. We all have a role to play in making it easier for people to do the right thing. That is quite different from a finger-wagging approach; it is about making sure that it is easy to make healthy rather than difficult choices. When you talk to people about that, they feel it is a sensible approach.

On the funding question that both noble Baronesses asked about, it is worth pointing out that local authorities received £16 billion over this SR period. That obviously involves a reduction, as they pointed out. The recent Budget did not change the funding. It has been suggested that it reduced it, which it did not. Clearly, any new budget for public health specifically and for the role of local authorities will be decided at the spending review next year. I hope the noble Baronesses will forgive me if I cannot say more about that, other than that I absolutely concur that local authorities have a critical role working with the third sector, industry and others. So does technology. Noble Lords will know that we have a real technophile in the Secretary of State. He is absolutely right that, while technology will not necessarily change everything, it gives us the possibility to change behaviours much more cheaply and more cost-effectively than in the past, which I hope means that we can do more with our money. That is the promise of new technology if we get it right.

On the specific questions on the prevention strategy, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked about junk food advertising. The consultation on that is due to be published before Christmas. We are trying to train more staff on children’s health. We are working with Health Education England on a health and care workforce plan as part of the long-term plan. She also mentioned health inequalities. The Prime Minister had been very clear that she wants people to enjoy five more years of healthy life. At the moment, on average, children being born today will live to the age of 81 but might have 18 years of unhealthy life and there is a great discrepancy in that depending on one’s demographic. The greatest gains from that will therefore be for the least advantaged. That is something we are focused on. It is part of the NHS mandate today and it will be part of the plan.

We have debated GP numbers in this House. There are record numbers of GPs in training and that flow will continue over the coming years. We are also determined to make sure that there is much better treatment for mental health, not only because people with mental illness die earlier—sometimes dramatically earlier—but because, as we have discussed and as is being discussed now in the other place, there is too much unacceptable use of in-patient facilities for people with mental illness, learning disabilities and autism. I am glad that the Secretary of State’s strong words on this have been well received. He is absolutely determined, as we all are, to ensure that we deal with this. We have made some progress but we have not got as far as we needed.

As to whether such facilities will be needed in the future, I think that they will. I visited Springfield University Hospital in south London recently. It is being redeveloped from a classic Victorian institution to something being designed with patients to be much more suitable for their needs, with better access to light and to communal areas where appropriate. These facilities have a role to play when properly modernised, but they ought to be used for only a short time. They ought to be close to home and there ought to be a discharge plan in place before they are used. Clearly, in some cases none of those things is happening and unacceptable care takes place, which we need to stop.

On the various Green Papers and so on, the Secretary of State has set out vision documents in areas he has identified as early priorities. A lot of this stuff will be wrapped up in the long-term plan that we will publish before Christmas. As we move ahead there will be Green Papers on key areas. Social care will be one, for not just older adults but working-age adults; there will be a prevention Green Paper on that in the new year. There will be many more for us to discuss, to the great delight of the House, I am sure.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about cannabis medicine. We are treading a fine line in difficult territory. We know the great benefits that these medicines can bring and are bringing, particularly to children with some horrendous epilepsies and other illnesses. At the same time, we know that there are risks associated with the active ingredient THC. It is about trying to move forward in a way that is compassionate to patients but does not put them at undue risk while evidence is still being gathered.

I will say three things. First, we are trying to fund more research so we understand the real world impact of these kinds of medicines. Secondly, by rescheduling them to Schedule 2, THC-based medicines can be procured through an unlicensed medicines route, which was not something that was there before. That goes beyond the Sativex and Epidiolex question, in terms of licensed drugs at the moment, although again that will be done with care and caution by specialist doctors. NICE is working on a clinical guideline to supersede those currently in place, which are temporary guidelines. It will be gathering evidence as broadly as possible internationally from patient groups, clinicians, families, industry and elsewhere. I am confident that, while we have clearly not perfected the system yet, there is a genuine attempt to get a much better, more compassionate system that ensures that drugs such as this can get to people who will benefit from them when they need them. I am confident that we will get to the right position eventually.

Cannabis: Medicinal Uses

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 1st November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I can absolutely reassure my noble friend by reiterating the position outlined by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. He has been crystal clear that the Government have no plans whatever to legalise cannabis for recreational use. Indeed, the penalties for unauthorised supply, possession and production remain unchanged.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, while it is true that the faculty warns against the use of dried cannabis plant of unknown composition, it accepts that there may be benefits to pain management from pharmaceutical products. Fortunately, that is exactly what patients are demanding and what the Government have just legalised. However, the faculty is also demanding that, while we wait for clinical trials, a database—which is essential to better understand these medicines—should be set up. Will the Minister support the setting up of this database and ensure that it contains the massive amount of lived evidence and experience available from patients?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her question. I believe that the position we have reached now is the right one, not least driven by the heart-rending stories of children who had been benefiting from these kinds of medicines but were then not able to access them. It is a very good thing that we have got to this position. However, we also have to acknowledge—as the Chief Medical Officer did—that there is a lack of evidence, particularly beyond specific conditions such as paediatric epilepsy. It is precisely to provide that evidence that we are going to do two things: first, we will fund clinical trials through the NIHR, and, secondly, we will start collecting evidence and data on usage so that we can gain the evidence base to understand whether there are other applications where these medicines could be helpful.

General Practitioners

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 17th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My noble friend will know that pension policy is not one of my areas. There are early retirements from general practice but, as he pointed out, a number of those GPs come back either as locums or as part-time doctors. It is important to entice more of them back. That is why we aim to have 500 people going through our refresher scheme to bring GPs back into the service.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I was rather surprised to learn that the Government were trying to recruit more doctors from Australia, the very country to which a great many of our newly qualified doctors go for better pay and conditions. What are the Government doing to try to recoup the taxpayers’ money spent on their training? It is surprising that they go to developed countries such as Australia, and that we get no benefit from the cost of their training.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Some people will inevitably travel abroad after their training, but the vast majority of doctors who train in this country stay here. We have more GPs than ever in training. That is obviously the way to solve the long-term challenges of having the right workforce. However, the noble Baroness is absolutely right that we need to recruit from abroad in the short-to-medium term. The NHS has a recruitment target of 2,000 doctors via that route.

NHS: Equitable Access

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 5th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Question and join the whole House in wishing many happy returns to the NHS on its 70th birthday. She asked an extremely good question: how do we make sure that the NHS is equipped for the future and that everybody can benefit from the technological advances we are seeing take place? I point her in the direction of three issues. First, the National Institute for Health Research has more than £1 billion of funding and supports the translation of research into new technology every day. It is based in the NHS and uses NHS staff. I have also recently commissioned the department to look at the money spent on innovation, which we think is around £750 million in total, to make sure that it supports the uptake of effective medicines and treatments better than it does today, and to make sure that staff have time. Finally, in response to her last question, as we set out during the passage of the withdrawal Act, we will align ourselves to the clinical trials regulation as much as possible, whatever the outcome of Brexit.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, as a member of the Parliament choir I am a bit tempted to start singing, but I will resist. Given the remarkable success of the various vaccination programmes during the 70-year history of the NHS, will the Minister say when preventive measures for two modern-day diseases will be made equitably and nationally available? I refer to pre-exposure prophylaxis for HIV, which has already been shown by the trials to be remarkably effective, and vaccination against human papillomavirus, which should be made available for teenage boys as well as teenage girls to ensure full protection.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am sorry that the noble Baroness has not started singing; I am sure that we would have all joined in. As she rightly said, the NHS carried out the first major public vaccination programme in the world. We have always led the world in vaccination programmes. As she said, prophylaxis has been deemed to be successful; I will need to write to her on the specifics of the rollout. On the HPV vaccine and its availability for boys, we are still waiting for the final recommendations of the joint committee on vaccinations. We will act on those as soon as we get them.

Cannabis-based Medicines

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I will pass on my noble friend’s thanks to my right honourable colleagues. We agree with him that there is a very clear distinction: we know cannabis-based products can create harm but the question is whether they can also have therapeutic benefits. If they can, they need to be weighed in the balance and rescheduled appropriately. That does not diminish the negative impact that he has described that the recreational use of cannabis, particularly very strong strains, can have on young people.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for showing that he quite clearly understands the distinction between recreational and medicinal use. Is he also aware that Epidiolex, which is medicine produced by GW Pharmaceuticals for epilepsy sufferers and which will soon be approved, will not help children like Alfie Dingley who have uncontrolled epilepsy seizures? I understand that the cannabinoid CBDV is very important to such sufferers, and there is none of it in Epidiolex. Will the Minister ensure that the review takes account of the special needs of the 200,000 patients with uncontrollable seizures? Will the panel be able to hear from patients as well as studying research?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes excellent points. I know she has been deeply involved in the Alfie Dingley case and I thank her for her work on that. What we are discovering is that it is not the case that just one drug is going to fix this for the 200,000 people who are suffering. There is a need for variety. So it cannot be the case that just because one thing is licensed it is used for everyone; it needs to be specific to the needs of the patient, which is the noble Baroness’s main point. The interim panel is there precisely to make decisions on an individual basis. It is a patch to the system, if you like, not a long-term change, which is why the review is in place so that we can ensure that many other products derived from cannabis, if they are proven to have therapeutic benefits, can be developed into drugs for the range of needs that are out there.

Long-term Plan for the NHS

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 19th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, first, the Statement mentions £1.25 billion cash to cope with specific pension pressures. Is that because so many doctors are retiring early, and therefore drawing their pensions early, because of the pressures of the job? I know three GPs who are retiring far too early because of those pressures, so will the NHS be able to spend some of that money to relieve those pressures? Secondly, the Statement mentions that the Government want to prioritise prevention and that the NHS should get better at managing demand effectively. There are two factors that limit its ability to do that: social care has been mentioned by many noble Lords but I would also mention prevention. Can the Minister assure us that, when we get the spending review, the amount of money that goes to local authorities co-operating with the NHS on the prevention of ill health will not just be enough to make up for the cuts they have suffered over recent years but enough to really go forward and transform prevention measures?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

To answer the noble Baroness’s first question, I believe that changes in actuarial calculations were the driver of that change. However, it is a technical issue and I will write to her and place a copy of the letter in the Library so that other noble Lords can see the rationale for it. Regarding her question about public health funding, obviously it is not for me to make predictions about exactly what will be in the spending review, save to say again that there was a clear commitment in the Statement that we would not create further pressures for the NHS through the settlements delivered for social care and public health.

Education (Student Support) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I do not want to get into an argument about funny money and magic money trees, but it is worth pointing out that the proposal to treble student fees came from the Browne review, which was instigated by a Labour Government, and indeed the 2010 Labour manifesto committed a future Labour Government to implementing the findings of that review.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I would add that the Browne recommendations had no cap at all.

Children: Obesity

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 10th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her acknowledgement of that important step forward in recruiting nurses to hard-to-recruit areas. That is important because we want more mental health, learning disability and district nurses in the future. They have an important role to play in schools. If I may say so, the noble Baroness is slightly underplaying the work that schools are already doing in this area. We have talked about the Daily Mile programme, which is going very well, with 900 schools in England adopting it. Learning about food, healthy eating and nutrition is a compulsory part of the curriculum in key stages 1, 2 and 3. However, I agree that there is always a need to do more.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that when you cook your meals from scratch, you know what is in them and are more likely to stay healthy? Can he assure me that children learn to cook in schools, not just the theory of nutrition? Will he also join me in encouraging the BBC to produce a cookery programme aimed at children?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am turning into the commissioner of children’s programming. I am trying to remember—I think that there is actually a CBBC programme that encourages children to cook. Its name has gone completely out of my mind but it was popular with my children. The noble Baroness raises an important point. Children learn to cook in primary schools, most of which have some sort of kit that allows them to do that. It is critical for them to understand that food does not just come from packets or shops but can be created by hand—and enjoyably, too.

Nurses: Training

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for highlighting that important issue. A very stringent language test is imposed by the Nursing and Midwifery Council—indeed, it is perhaps so stringent that it has excluded some nurses who are perfectly capable of practising in this country. A review of that is going on at the moment to make sure that a proper line is drawn—ensuring professional competence, including in technical language, while not excluding people who would be perfectly capable of practising well in this country.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the vacancy rate for nurses in social care settings has doubled over the last four years? Given the other pressures on nursing homes, will the Government take specific action—perhaps grants for placements—to relieve this problem, which the NAO has described as dangerous?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness has highlighted an important issue, which is the number of nurses in social care. I recognise that to be a problem, as does the department. A specific social care workforce consultation will get under way and is linked to the overall draft workforce plan that Health Education England has published. This is something that we are looking at. We can solve it to some extent by increasing the overall number of nurses, but we need to find ways of attracting them into the social care profession.

NHS: EEA Doctors

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 12th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the number of doctors from European Economic Area states working in the United Kingdom who may be planning to leave the NHS after the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government value the contribution of all European Union staff working across the NHS and social care systems immensely. We have set out a clear pathway to permanent residency for these EU citizens. According to the latest NHS digital data, there are now more non-UK EU doctors working in the NHS than ever before, with almost 500 more since 30 June 2016.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, according to the BMA, almost half of EEA doctors are considering leaving the UK and one in five has already made plans to do so. Given that it takes 13 years to train a consultant, what is the Minister doing to fill these gaps in the short term? Is he aware that there are numerous doctors from around the world already resident in the UK but whose qualifications fall short of what is required by the NHS? They would dearly love to be able to upgrade their qualifications and help us to fill the gap that is going to be left by the Tory Brexit, but there is no organisation that will advise and support them to improve their qualifications. What will the Minister do about that?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I recognise that, as the noble Baroness pointed out, there has been uncertainty. That is why I am sure that the entire House will welcome the agreement reached last Friday to provide that certainty, and I encourage all noble Lords to look at and circulate the letter written by the Prime Minister to EU citizens explaining how much we value them, how much we want them to stay and how we have now agreed with the EU a process for doing that. The noble Baroness will be interested to know, as I am sure will other noble Lords, that there were 470 more EU doctors working in the NHS in June 2017 compared to June the year before—so, happily, we have not seen the exodus that so many people have warned about. We need to grow more of our own in the future, of course, and there are 1,500 training places for doctors coming on stream in September 2019, but I shall certainly look at the issue that she raises about providing opportunities for doctors—not least refugees; that issue has been raised with me—to upgrade their qualifications so that they can serve in the NHS.

Young Women: Self-Harm

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 16th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Storey, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, in recent years there has been an increase in self-harming among young women. This is a worrying trend that the Government are committed to addressing. That is why we updated the cross-government suicide prevention strategy and expanded its key areas for action to include self-harm. We are also committed to implementing a community-based care pathway for self-harm by 2019 and to making sure that every acute hospital has mental health liaison services in place by 2020-21.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for acknowledging the shocking 68% increase in the number of young girls being admitted to hospital for self-harm over the last decade. Does he agree that school counsellors can be a very valuable resource in helping to tackle this terrible epidemic of emotional distress among young people, because they are non-stigmatising and easily accessible? However, I visited an area yesterday where I was told that all the school counsellors have had to be sacked because the schools cannot afford to pay them. Will the Minister work with the Department for Education to ensure that by the end of this Parliament every secondary state school in this country has a school counsellor, so that we can tackle the welfare requirements of young people as well as their academic requirements?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right to highlight the importance of schools in dealing with this. It is not just a health issue. Indeed it is not just about education either, but involves a cross-government approach. I would be very keen for her to write to me with the specific details of what she is describing—it does not sound like a positive development. Much more positively, more than 1,000 secondary schools have now had mental health first aid training for at least one teacher in the school, and the ambition is to extend that to all secondary schools. She will also know that there will very shortly be a children and young people mental health Green Paper, which I think will have quite ambitious actions for both schools and the health service to support young people with mental health problems.

Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to making sure that 70,000 more children and young people each year will receive evidence-based mental health treatment by 2020-21. Since publishing Future in Mind, the Government have made an additional £1.4 billion available to improve children’s mental health. Key mechanisms for delivery are local transformation plans, which cover the full spectrum of mental health, and the upcoming children and young people’s mental health Green Paper, which will contain proposals for further improving access to services.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that early intervention is essential to prevent escalation into crisis and lifelong problems? Is he aware that the number of CAMHS psychiatrists fell by 6.6% between 2013 and this year, while demand for their services rose? The number of qualified doctors who go into psychiatry is 2.6%, the lowest of any specialism, and some universities do not send any. Will he consult Health Education England to find out what it is doing about this, because the pipeline is drying up?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right to highlight the fact that we need more staff to meet the mental illness burden in society, which is sadly growing. I hope that she will have seen that Health Education England has announced that there will be 21,000 more mental health staff by 2021, of which 13,000 will be qualified clinical staff, including 700 more doctors. The warning she has made has been heard loud and clear and those changes have been made.

If I may, I would like to use this opportunity to say that I made a mistake in my previous answer, when I talked about there being 21,000 people eligible for flu jabs. If that really was true, that would be a poor place to be. It is actually 21 million, which is slightly more reassuring.

Adult Social Care in England

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Lord is quite right that the CQC report highlights that. It also highlights a broadly stable residential care home situation. What is changing the nature of care provision is the increase in the amount of domiciliary and community-based care that is being provided; we are seeing a shift there. The CQC report also shows big discrepancies across the country in terms of the proportion of beds per head of population. That is one thing we are trying to address, to make sure there is much more evenness of care.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the CQC report emphasised the need to co-ordinate care by stating that in future it will report not only on the quality of care in individual providers but on the quality of co-ordination between services. It quotes examples of services working together using technology and innovation to share data and improve care. How do the Government plan to encourage this approach? Will they look at funding models to make sure that they encourage co-ordination rather than deter people from co-ordinating?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes an excellent point. We will certainly look at those funding models. Co-ordination, as we have been saying, is the way forward, because if you are a user of care in your eighties, you may be visiting a GP, you may be based in a nursing home, and to you, it ought to be one system and you ought to be travelling through it smoothly. Of course, we know that that is not the case at the moment, and the noble Baroness is quite right to highlight that there are great gains to be made, whether from having pharmacists in nursing homes or from having GPs coming to visit. Her point about technology and data is a good one. We still have an argument to win in reassuring people that their data are safe within the NHS so that they can be confident that they are used wisely for their direct care. That is the policy area I am now responsible for, since the election, so I am focused on providing that reassurance so that we can unlock the kind of innovation she is talking about.

National Health Service

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what assessment they have made of remarks by the Chief Inspector of Hospitals that the NHS is not fit for the 21st century.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government agree with Professor Baker’s statement that,

“we need a model of care that is fit for the 21st century and the population as it is now”.

That is why we are backing the NHS’s own plans for transformation with an extra £8 billion a year in real terms by 2020-21 and an extra £2 billion over the next three years for social care.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he also agree with Professor Ted Baker’s statement:

“The model of care we have got is still the model we had in the 1960s”,


and that this “needs to change”? Can the Minister say how many of the new models of care are up and running and how many of the sustainability and transformation plans are in special measures? On World Mental Health Day, will he look into how many clinical commissioning groups are failing to commission good and timely mental health care, especially for young people?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness asked a few questions that I will try to deal with. First, on new models of care and STPs: STPs are now being ranked in order to see their fitness for moving forward. The Chancellor announced in the Budget that we will invest £325 million initially, with more funding in the future to support the transformation that we all want to see. The noble Baroness is right to point out that our care model is still based around hospitals and curing infectious diseases, rather than dealing with chronic illnesses and comorbidities. That needs to change.

I echo, as the noble Baroness would, the Care Quality Commission’s report, which talked about staff dedication—nowhere is that more true than in mental health, where staff often deal with very difficult circumstances. It is important to talk about that on World Mental Health Day. She may be interested to know that the Cabinet was briefed today by mental health experts about training programmes going into schools, and so on. There is a lot of work going on, but these are the NHS’s own plans for change, which this Government are backing.

End of Life Care

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to implement the NICE guideline End of life care for infants, children and young people with life-limiting conditions: planning and management.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, responsibility for implementing the NICE guidelines lies with local NHS commissioners and providers. NHS England has commissioned the charity Together for Short Lives to assess whether local provision follows these guidelines. The results will be shared to help spread best practice and address common challenges. These actions form part of the Government’s commitment to ensure that everyone at or approaching the end of life has good-quality, compassionate and joined-up care in a setting of their choice.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. The resource impact tool published with this guidance shows that by investing £12.7 million in implementing the guidance, savings of £34.7 million could be made by the NHS in England. What plans do the Government have to emphasise to local commissioners the cost effectiveness of implementing the guidance? Secondly, does the Minister think it is right that adult hospices in England receive 33% of their funding from statutory sources while children’s hospices receive only 22%?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising this very important issue. On the tool and the cost effectiveness, we know how important it is to invest in these services. What we have now is not by any means a perfect service, but we do have the first national framework, NICE guidance and the CQC inspecting the quality of end-of-life care and showing up where there are still issues in provision. That is why we are working with Together for Short Lives and I think that the tool the noble Baroness has highlighted will help make the case to providers in order to do that.

There is significant funding going in from clinical commissioning groups and also what is called a care currency—a way of looking at that spending and making sure that it is being distributed to provide the care that is needed in a way that is predictable for the providers. In addition, another £11 million goes in from NHS England to support it. So there is always more to do but I think we are making good progress.

Health: Obstetrics and Gynaecology

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right to highlight the appalling tragedies involved. As she said, over 500 families could have had different outcomes if the care they had received had been different. That is worth dwelling on because every one of these incidents is a human tragedy. She highlights midwives. There are over 2,000 more midwives in the National Health Service and 6,500 in training. There has been a big increase in the number of births in recent years, so the number has had to rise. Of course, I would be delighted to meet her to discuss the training and to make sure that it is the very best available so as to avoid and, as the Secretary of State has said, to reduce the number of maternity incidences in future years.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is good practice to involve parents in the reviews of what went wrong during their baby’s birth? Why were only 28% of parents involved in the reviews of what went wrong? Surely it is totally unacceptable that 25% of parents were not even told that a review was taking place.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I agree that parents should be involved in such reviews—as those who are ultimately most affected by these tragedies, they absolutely should be involved. It is fair to reflect that issues around maternity deaths, brain injuries and so on have been going on for a very long time, and in certain trusts there have been acute instances of tragedy. That is why, as I said, the Secretary of State is determined to halve the number of deaths and incidents. We have had a number of reports, not only the one we are discussing today but also that of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, Better Births, in an attempt to improve the way that services are delivered.

Adult Social Care Services

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 6th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I shall respond to the several questions that the noble Baroness asked. She is right that the CQC made that warning last year, and that is precisely why the Government have chosen to put in additional money—£2 billion extra was announced in the spring Budget—to support the social care system and provide real-term increases in funding.

It is worth pointing out that today’s report shows that 79% of care settings received a good or outstanding rating, compared with 72% last year. There are obviously differences in the kinds of settings that were inspected; nevertheless, it shows an increase in the number of good or outstanding settings.

I completely agree with the noble Baroness’s point about patient safety. I think that the phrase “the Mum test” is both accurate and evocative. Clearly, nobody wants to choose care settings that do not pass that, and any care that is inadequate is unacceptable. However, the reason we have that information about unacceptable care settings is that this Government, in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, introduced a very tough inspection regime in 2014. I believe that today’s report shows that four out of five settings that were judged inadequate on the first inspection had improved on reinspection, so the inspection regime is itself a critical part of dealing with the issue that she rightly points to.

The noble Baroness highlighted the number of beds and staffing. Around 165,000 more staff are working in the care sector, but of course care is moving more from residential homes to domiciliary settings, so the nature of care is changing there. However, more staff are going into the service and they are now being paid the national living wage.

Finally, it is fair to say that no Government have a completely unblemished record in getting to grips with the problem of funding care. The Labour Government had Green Papers, royal commissions, the Wanless review and so on; we have had other investigations. However, to go back to the beginning, the point is that we cannot wait any longer—we need to get on with this—and that is why I set out in the Queen’s Speech debate last week that the consultation that we will publish at the end of this year will look not just at an open question but at very specific proposals around floors and caps, and I hope that we will be able to build a consensus on the need to move forward.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, quality improvement is really urgent given that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, said, one in four settings was found by the CQC either to be unsafe or to require improvements in safety. Safety is fundamental when you are looking for a setting for one of your loved ones. Given that, according to the CQC, the rate of improvement is slowing down in some settings and in others has deteriorated, does the Minister agree that a shortage of well-trained staff is at the root of this problem?

While we wait for the Green Paper, will the Government respond to the CQC’s second warning that social care is at a tipping point and inject some urgent cash into it? Many authorities, which really understand these issues, told us last autumn, when the extra money was announced, that it was really only half of what social care required to keep it at the same level, let alone improve, so some extra cash is urgently needed.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I reiterate the point I made to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. I completely agree that safety is paramount: it is the beginning of any good care setting. As I said, the new regime highlights issues of safety where they exist so that operators and commissioners, whether that is local authorities or whoever, can demand turnaround in those services. As I said, the response to that has been demonstrated.

I mentioned that more staff are, of course, getting the national living wage, which will continue to attract people to the sector. The noble Baroness is quite right about skills, which is why we have the skills for care programme.

It is also worth pointing out that one thing the CQC report did show, as indeed you would hope it would, is that 79% of settings provided either good or outstanding care. There is no doubting the motivations of the people who work in this sector, and we all pay tribute to them. It is about making sure that there are enough of them and that they are properly skilled. That is precisely why we have put additional money into social funding, to enable real-term increases over the next three years to address the fact that we have an ageing and growing population.

NHS: Working Conditions

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the commitment and selflessness of NHS staff. I am of course aware of the report that he talked about. That is why we need to increase the numbers of both nurses and doctors in training, which has happened. On pay, I think we all know that everybody has had to make sacrifices as we get the public finances in order. That is well understood. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is shortly meeting the leaders of the Royal College of Nursing, for example, but of course any decisions on pay will be made as a consequence of the reports from the independent pay review bodies.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, in the 2016 NHS staff survey, 47% of staff who responded said that staffing levels were insufficient for them to be able to do their job properly. One in five GP training places were unfilled, mental health and community nurse numbers fell by 13%, and district nurse numbers fell by 42%. Given that workload is the major reason given for staff leaving the service, how do the Government plan to increase the number of patients treated in primary care and in the community as opposed to in acute settings in hospital, as recommended by a number of authoritative reports, including that of the Select Committee of your Lordships’ House?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I can only reiterate that I recognise the pressures on the workforce. That is why we are recruiting more GPs and nurses. There are more than 50,000 in training, and we are aiming to get 5,000 more GPs into the NHS over the next few years. On the noble Baroness’s point about moving treatment out of hospitals and into the community, that is one of the core drivers of the STP process, which is about reorganising care so that it happens sooner and, ideally, in a preventive way rather than after the fact.

NHS: Shared Business Services

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I will answer the noble Lord’s four questions. The first was on taking advice from officials. I think the noble Lord would probably be alarmed if the Secretary of State was not taking advice from officials. That should be welcomed. It is clearly the case that he was thinking on his own, because he took the decision to follow that advice in the first instance in March, but was of the view by July that enough was known and that it was important to update Parliament before recess.

The second question was about the timing of the Statement. The noble Lord will remember that summer 2016 was a reasonably busy period after the EU referendum. The main point here is that the Statement was made before recess and was not held back until the autumn. As regards NHS Shared Business Services and the consequences for it, those consequences have been severe: it no longer has this contract and will, as my right honourable friend confirmed in another place just now, pay its share of the costs.

Finally, as my right honourable friend said, it could appear that there was a potential for conflict of interest, but in his view there was not one, because at all times—as confirmed in the NAO report—patient safety was the driving force behind the actions of the department and NHS England. It will always be the case, whatever arrangements the department has with an ALB—whether a standard agency, a joint company or whatever it is—that patient safety must come first. That was confirmed in the NAO report today.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, as I understand it, that Statement on the last day of term before the Summer Recess last year was one of 30—which implies to me that the Government consider the last day of term to be a very good day to hide bad news.

The Minister suggests that the company, or its shareholders, will have to pay its share of the costs of investigating this scandal. Can he assure us that the NHS will not be out of pocket, particularly in the light of the fact that the loss is not just financial? A lot of doctors and various officials, in both the department and trusts, have had to spend a great deal of their time looking into this—and, of course, time is money. Will this scandal actually cause the Government to be a little more cautious in future when they claim that putting health services out to private companies always gives better value to the taxpayer and the NHS?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness will know that I was not in post at the end of last summer, so I cannot explain why there were the number of Statements that there were. I know that Governments of perhaps different hues have also tended to put out Written Statements, so I do not think any political party is entirely innocent in this regard. The point is that the information was made available to Parliament.

On the point about cost settlement, there are interested parties here and the costs need to be settled once we have got to the bottom of exactly what has happened and once those inquiries and indeed the investigations into the potential for patient harm have been settled. I underline that as yet no instances of patient harm have been discovered.

Finally, the point about privatisation is quite an important one. The noble Baroness will know that the private sector is involved in the delivery of all parts of the NHS. Breach of contract, which is what this is, and the covering up of mistakes happen in all parts of the health service—public, private, shared and all the rest of it. It is not a case of “private sector bad, public sector good”: we know that from instances like Mid Staffs and so on. The core point is that we need very strong data security standards, and that is why the Government will be responding in due course to the Caldicott review and the review of these issues by the CQC.

Brexit: Nursing Staff

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I am afraid the noble Lord is mistaking cause for correlation in this instance, and let me explain why we think that is the case. The General Pharmaceutical Council introduced language testing in November 2016; it had experienced no significant drop-off in applications from EEA member countries after Brexit but before that point and a big downturn in applications after that point. So it is language testing; it also happened with the GMC as well when it introduced language testing. I know this is something that the noble Lord supports—he said as much in a debate on this very issue in 2015—because it is an issue of safety. That is why language testing has been introduced. I would like to say, however, that of course we value the work of EU staff who come here, and, indeed, all nursing staff. As the Prime Minister set out yesterday, we want them to stay and have offered a generous package to allow them to do so, and there are more EU nurses here than there ever have been.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the Department of Health’s own modelling predicts that there will be a shortage of 40,000 nurses by 2026. My own local hospital has 60 nurse vacancies, and I am sure other noble Lords have similar examples. What do the Government propose to do to avoid the NHS becoming unsafe because of these nursing shortages, given that some nurses are already being asked to stay on at the end of 12-hour shifts in order to fill gaps in the roster?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving us the opportunity to talk about the fact that we have increased the number of nurses and health visitors by nearly 5,000 since 2010. She is quite right to say that we need more of them; we have a growing and ageing population and higher expectations of what the NHS should be delivering. It is for that reason that we have a number of things in action: we have 52,000 nurses in training; we have a return to practice programme, which has already prepared 2,000 nurses to come back into the profession; and we are introducing nursing apprenticeships and nursing associates. We are not complacent about this issue—we know it is important—but there are a number of programmes in train to fill the gap that she has identified.

Health: Electronic Patient Records

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 27th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, given the continued revelations of data security breaches, along with the absence of a response to last year’s report from Dame Fiona Caldicott, how do the Government intend to avoid a repeat of the fiasco several years ago over care.data? Does the Minister agree that it is vital that patients are given confidence in the security of their data so that they do not withdraw from allowing their data to be used for vital medical research?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right that the National Data Guardian produced her report last summer. There has been the intention to reply to that report but purdah has had an inevitable impact, unfortunately. She made points in that report about the simplified process for opting out but was also clear that vital uses can be made of suitably anonymised data which benefit patients directly, particularly through medical and clinical research, and about making sure that patients know about that so that they can choose to have their data shared. It is encouraging that at the moment, only around 2% of all patients have opted to have their summary care records not shared. This suggests that when it is explained properly and there are suitable safeguards, people are happy to share their data.

NHS and Adult Social Care

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 5th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Those were the words just repeated by the noble Lord. The so-called “death tax” was a percentage levy on all estates, regardless of the use of social care systems. The proposals that the coalition Government came forward with—the Dilnot proposals—were about capping amounts and therefore were much more responsive to the amounts being spent. The Chancellor has recently recommitted us to not looking at that proposal but we will, through the Green Paper, seek to put the social care system on a sustainable basis and, of course, seek consensus wherever we can.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise the logic of the committee’s criticism of the cuts to public health funding? Will he go back and commit himself to promoting the prevention agenda and good health agenda, not just in his own department but across government, because so many other departments have an effect on the health of the nation?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right about the importance of public health. It is worth pointing out that it is not just an issue of money. This country was the first in Europe to act on cigarette packaging, to introduce a soft drinks industry levy and to develop a childhood obesity plan. As we have talked about previously, if you look at the risky behaviours displayed by young people, you will see good evidence that this approach is working.

Hospitals: Patient Transport

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am sorry to hear of the wait faced by the noble and right reverend Lord’s wife, and indeed others. Those delays do not sound acceptable. There are clear guidelines in the standard contract for commissioners to outline the quality of patient services, and they are inspected by the CQC. I would certainly be happy to meet him to talk about this in more detail and find out exactly what is going on.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, according to the NHS website, there are some areas in which patient transport services are not available. I want to ask the Minister two things about that. First, what should patients in those areas do if they need transport? Secondly, are the Government going to hold to account the CCGs that are not commissioning these services?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

There are challenges in patient transport, particularly in rural areas. That was one of the reasons for the Department for Transport creating the Total Transport pilots in an attempt to deal with the problem. In Devon, the local authority and CCG are now working together to provide better transport. As I said, it is in the clinical commissioning standard contract to provide that kind of transport and NHS England is responsible for making sure that it is provided.

Local Authorities (Public Health Functions and Entry to Premises by Local Healthwatch Representatives) (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted to support these regulations because I am an enormous fan of a universal health visitor service, and in particular the healthy child programme. Our economy is never going to keep up with the demand for health services unless we pay more attention to the issue of prevention. That really is the public health agenda. Any doctor will tell you that you really must lay the foundations for a healthy body, lifestyle and habits in the early years or you will get illnesses later on. The review of the programme so far has been very positive. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, there have been significant improvements in the populations reached. However, we will not see the true benefit of this programme until we are years down the track and find that those young children who have been given a healthy foundation grow up to have fewer of the terrible but preventable chronic diseases that are costing the country so much.

I am very proud of the coalition Government’s vision of improving the health outcomes of children, young people and their families. Transferring the responsibility to local authorities was part of that: it gives them the chance to combine services, right up to the age of 19. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, there are serious questions to be asked. The first, of course, is about resources. Although these services are mandated, and although the Minister may say that the money has been ring-fenced, budgets have been cut and are going to be further cut. Local authority councillor friends of mine tell me that it is getting more and more difficult for local authorities to provide even those services which they are mandated to provide because things are getting so tight financially. I hope the Minister can give us some encouragement on that, although I somehow doubt it.

The other question on resources is about people. We have heard from the Minister about the number of health visitors in training. Are they going to be enough to serve rising demand? We have a rising population and a lot of additional young people and families who require services. A universal service is terribly important because you do not just get health problems among the most deprived. However, there is a great deal of poverty in this country and the need for these services is growing. How confident is the Minister that we will have enough sufficiently trained nurses, given the stresses on all health service staff and given that so many people are leaving and retention is getting more difficult? Are we going to have enough people?

Are there any plans to extend these services a little further up the age range? I am particularly concerned about the large number of children who are starting school between the ages of four and five already overweight, obese or with poor eating habits. So, although the healthy child programme and the reviews that are mandated here in these regulations go up to the final check at two to two and a half years, it is really important that we do it again just before the child goes to school, because at that point they are already at a disadvantage. Many of these children are from a disadvantaged background and sadly these problems occur more frequently in those backgrounds. They get to school and they are already developmentally a good deal behind children from more advantaged backgrounds. I think the proof that we have had over the few years that this programme has been in place is sufficiently convincing to tell us that perhaps we ought to extend it a little bit further.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am grateful to both the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for their endorsement of the universal health visiting service. The noble Baroness is quite right to emphasise the long-term benefits that derive from a universal health visiting service of high quality and it is true that it is a great coalition achievement that we should be proud of. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his endorsement of not only the programme but also the mandated reviews and indeed of local authorities taking ownership of the programme.

To deal with the funding issue first, as I set out there is both the £16 billion that is going into local authorities for public health and the extension of the ring fence for another year. I will not gloss over the fact that it is a challenging fiscal environment. We know why that is; it is because the country continues to borrow more than it is bringing in in tax. I do not want to go into the reasons for that for fear of being accused of being too political, but we do operate in a challenging environment. That is why the business rate retention and reform is so important, to give local authorities more sustainability for their own funding base. I should also point out that, whether the issue is smoking or other risky behaviours, we are still making good progress, so it is possible to continue to reduce these kinds of risky behaviours, notwithstanding the pressures that are inevitably placed on budgets. In the round, total health budgets are increasing, not just in the NHS but across all health budgets. So while I do not gloss over the fact that it is a challenging fiscal environment, we are still making very strong progress, not just on health visitors but on a number of important public health issues.

In terms of the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made about the review by Public Health England of mandated services, obviously there are no plans to review the health visiting service, as I think we are all agreed that this is something we want to happen. Health visitors are popular and desired. I am not in a position to say at this point whether any other services are under review but I shall certainly write to him about that.

Both the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about the numbers of health visitors. They increased by 50% in the last Parliament, which I think is a huge achievement. It has become slightly more difficult to track their numbers because they have a number of employers now that the budget has been devolved, but there are still very high numbers of them as a result of the changes made in the last Parliament. There are over 800 training places for health visitors and there are more nurses in the system as well. So there is investment going into the workforce, and I absolutely recognise that there has got to be a high-quality workforce. It is also the case that other healthcare professionals are able to deliver some of these services. If a family, which of course will more likely be a poorer or more disadvantaged family, is receiving support from a family nurse partnership, then the nurses that are delivering that can also deliver the health visit and some of the early reviews, so it is a mixed picture. The number of family nurse partnership places has increased over the past few years as well.

There are a couple of final issues. Breastfeeding is part of health visitor training and indeed their mandate is to encourage greater breastfeeding. I am not aware of the specifics of the variability. I shall certainly look into that. It is a critical part of maternal and child health and to be encouraged. I know that there are variations from one part of the country to another. Whether they are due to training and workforce or to other cultural or longer-term issues is a different question and it is bound to be more challenging in some areas than others.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about the age range. It is important for the health visiting service to stick to what it does best. I certainly recognise the picture she is describing, having worked in primary schools. There is an increase in children coming unprepared to school, or increasingly to nurseries, whether in their eating habits or toilet habits or whatever it is. The increase in formal childcare places that has been made available to both three year-olds and disadvantaged two year-olds will go some way to addressing that but I shall certainly keep an eye on that issue.

[Baroness Walmsley]

Sorry to spring this on the noble Lord but there was something that I forgot to ask him. He mentioned the accessibility of school nurses. The fact is that if a school nurse is looking after five schools they are not terribly accessible. I wonder if he might write to me as to whether there are any plans to increase the number of school nurses, because that is part of increasing the child’s health right the way through the age range.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Yes, I shall certainly be happy to do that, probably looking at it in the round in terms of all the local health support that is available for school-age children. I hope, in responding, that I have been able to talk to all the points that have been made by noble Lords in this debate. I am glad that we all agree that health visitor support to families is vital and is about giving children the best possible start in life. It is why the Government have taken this action to continue to ensure the provision of the five mandatory health and development assessments and reviews so that this service continues to be provided for all families with children aged nought to five. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Gene Editing: Agriculture and Medicine

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 27th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My noble friend is a leading advocate of this technology and is correct that getting the regulation right is absolutely important. It is currently regulated at the EU level, and there is debate on and an inquiry by the European Court of Justice into current exemptions for gene editing. We support the current exemptions, although others have challenged them. But it is also important to recognise that any discussion about gene editing, whether in agriculture or especially in a human health setting, involves big ethical questions and it is only right that we tread carefully as we move ahead.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, given the potential of gene editing of non-reproductive cells for treating HIV, sickle cell, haemophilia and, as the noble Viscount said, cancer, what plans do the Government have to ensure continued research in this important and valuable area after Brexit?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right to talk about the important therapeutic benefits that can come. I do not think this has anything to do with Brexit, other than the fact that the UK has been and continues to be a leader in the world of genomic sequencing, which of course enables us to identify the genetic issues that lead to some of the diseases and illnesses she has described. Within our regulatory framework, it is possible to use gene editing for therapeutic reasons but in ways that do not impact on inheritability, which is of course ethically an incredibly difficult question.

NHS: Sustainability and Transformation Plans

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 20th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

As the noble Baroness has pointed out, it is important that there is sufficient capacity in the social care service and in the NHS. In fact, the NHS accounts for more of the delayed discharges, for example, than does social care. Simon Stevens, the head of NHS England, has been clear that, in addition to the four reconfiguration tests, any bed closures would need to show that there was redundancy in the system, that there is alternative provision—to come to the noble Baroness’s point—and that there is clear potential for efficiency. It is clear that the STPs must be able to plan ahead and provide alternatives if there are going to be changes to A&E or other services.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, given that 50% to 60% of patients attending A&E in some hospitals hit the four-hour target, how many more hospitals will hit the target when some adjoining hospitals close their A&E departments? This does not sound like excess capacity.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is right to point out that the four-hour target is critical for the NHS and it is committed to making sure that that target is hit. Some A&E closures have been mooted but only seven areas, according to the Health Service Journal, have clear proposals, and that is before there has been any public engagement and any application of the reconfiguration test. I point the noble Baroness to the comments of Simon Stevens about the importance of demonstrating alternative provision and that it cannot be a case of closing beds without that being in place.

National Health Service: Nurses

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 22nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, are there any plans for post-qualification training grants for specialist nurses in some of the shortage areas, such as psychiatric nursing, and/or golden handcuffs to keep them in their jobs?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is quite right to raise the issue of retaining nurses and bringing them back into the profession. That is why, last year, to aid retention, there was an average 3% increase in pay for nurses. Health Education England has also introduced a return to practice campaign, which has brought 900 nurses back to the front line in the last three years.

Hospital Beds: Availability

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for that question. He is quite right that integration of services is the main thrust of policy and has been under successive Governments. This is happening in two ways. First, the Better Care Fund is pooling health and social care budgets at local authority level in order to achieve what he is asking for. Also, NHS England is producing sustainability and transformation plans, several of which are moving towards what is called an accountable care organisation, whereby a single grouping takes responsibility for all the healthcare needs of a population, rather than it being split into different services.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, integration is of course very important, but has the Minister ever met anybody in the health service who does not believe that you will never fix the pressures in the health service until you put more money into social care? That means helping areas with low-value properties, not just those with high-value properties, such as in leafy Surrey.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness is of course quite right about the need for more money. I re-emphasise that an additional £7 billion or more for social care is going to councils during this Parliament. Councils have the ability to raise council tax, although the leverage obviously varies from place to place. This is why the Better Care Fund was created—to provide extra help to areas that do not get the same income from council tax increases as the better-off places.

Nursing and Midwifery: Student Applications

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord no longer supports a higher education policy of loans and fees that was originally instigated by a Labour Government. He is right about the differing impacts in Scotland and Wales, which have different systems. He also knows that, whenever fees have been introduced in the past, there has been a dip and then a rebound. Two of those rises in fees happened under Labour Governments. There are around 37,000 applicants for around 23,000 places at this point in the cycle. As he knows, there will be further applications directly to universities and through clearing. He may also be reassured by the words of the head of policy at the Council of Deans of Health, which represents the universities affected. She said:

“The scale of the fall in application numbers is not the critical factor for universities or the health and social care sector. Courses that were previously heavily oversubscribed can survive a significant dip in application numbers as long as the quality of applicants is good, and our members report that this remains so”.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, filling the places is one matter, but the level of attrition is another, and that is dreadful. Apparently, one in four student nurses leaves during their training, and in the first two years after qualification two out of five leave the profession. Part of the problem is that the data are not consistently collected. If they were, we would be able to know which settings are very poor at keeping their young nurses. Will the Government do something about collecting those data in a consistent way so that something can be done about the level of attrition?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Baroness makes an important point about attrition. It is one of the reasons that, within the new package of support, there is extra support for living expenses, both for mature students, who feature particularly in the case of nursing, and in cases of hardship.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his amendment and for providing the opportunity to talk about this important issue. It is important to note that the substance of this amendment is different from the substance of the amendment that was tabled in Committee, which would have given a blanket exclusion, while this is much more about providing the Secretary of State with the opportunity to exercise his or her judgment to exempt a product.

I absolutely appreciate the intent of the amendment, and reassure my noble friend that we believe it unnecessary. Due to the powers in the 2006 Act, the Secretary of State already has the ability to exempt individual products or groups of products from the terms of any statutory scheme, so this amendment would duplicate existing powers. For example, the Secretary of State uses these powers in the current statutory scheme to exempt products already under a contract or framework agreement. It is currently the Government’s intention that under the new statutory scheme, products procured under framework agreements that were entered into prior to the regulations coming into force would be exempt from the pricing controls and payment mechanism. However, branded products procured after the regulations come into force would be subject to the pricing controls and payment mechanism. Like any other cost, companies would be able to take this into account when proposing a price in response to a new tender. The regulations will of course be subject to consultation.

The point here is that there may well be cases where an exemption is required, and noble Lords have given examples of what that might look like. I hope your Lordships would agree that it would not be responsible for me to try and set out a list of them now, but clearly there will be occasions where that might be necessary. Any statutory scheme must of course also be sensitive—as indeed the legislation demands that it is—to the differing R&D costs that apply to the development of different medicines.

I hope that provides some reassurance on the points that noble Lords have made. We would be able to use the powers that already exist in the creation of the new statutory scheme for whichever purposes are desired at the time. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment. I hope those reassurances have done the trick.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, is he able to respond to the issue about biosimilars, which I raised in an earlier debate and which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just raised?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thought I had, when I talked about taking into account the differing R&D costs, which I think was the substance of the point made by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. We have to take into account both getting a good price and the R&D costs, and that needs to be reflected within a statutory scheme, and would clearly apply to the case in point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 13 and am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for putting her name to this amendment and to the others in my name.

The amendments relate to the report and recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and I am extremely grateful to the committee for its scrutiny of the Bill—which, I believe, together with the government amendments, will lead to improved legislation. In my response to the committee, I confirmed that the Government would accept all four recommendations and would table amendments to take forward these actions. Once again, I am grateful for the work of the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for continuing to highlight the issues raised in the report.

I shall take each recommendation in turn. First, the committee concluded that the general power in new Section 264B(1)(l) proposed in Clause 6 to prescribe in regulations any person to whom information may be supplied is too wide, with insufficient justification. The government amendment clarifies this issue by confining the ability to prescribe in regulations to any health service body already listed in Section 9 of the NHS Act 2006 and NHS foundation trusts which are not listed in Section 9. This would have the effect of enabling government to prescribe in regulations the sharing of data with other health service bodies such as clinical commissioning groups, but not enabling other persons to be included by means of subsection (1)(l). We have made this change, as we would want to be able to share information with local health bodies, such as CCGs or hospital trusts, if we had concerns about prices—but not with others.

The committee concluded that the power in Clause 7 to enable Welsh Ministers to make regulations that make provision for payment of a penalty if a provider of pharmaceutical or primary medical services contravenes regulations requiring them to record and provide information about health service products which are required for the health service in Wales, should be consistent with similar provisions in the 2006 Act. In particular, the committee recommended that the maximum penalty which may be imposed under what would be Section 201A of the National Health Service (Wales) Act should be set out in the Bill, and that a power to increase this maximum by regulations should be made subject to the affirmative regulations. I am pleased to say that, following discussions with the Welsh Government, an amendment has been tabled which would amend Section 201A(5) to introduce maximum penalties into the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006. We will amend the Bill to enable through regulations the power to increase the maximum penalty, and these regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Noble Lords will appreciate that, in the case of penalties, the powers in relation to Wales are different from those in relation to the UK as a whole in so far as Welsh Ministers will be able to impose penalties only on providers of pharmaceutical and primary medical services. By contrast, the 2006 Act allows for penalties to be imposed on manufacturers and distributers, and the size of any penalty should reflect this. It would therefore be disproportionate if the level of maximum fine allowed for in the 2006 Act were to be replicated in the NHS Wales Act. To address these concerns, the government amendment would limit the single penalty to £10,000 and the daily penalty to £100.

I turn to the amendment which would remove the provisions allowing Welsh Ministers to disclose information to persons prescribed in regulations. Welsh Ministers have agreed that the Bill should be amended to limit the types of bodies with whom information may be shared. The government amendment would specify the following persons to whom information may be disclosed by virtue of Section 201A. They include: a local health board or other person appointed under Section 88(3)(b) of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 to exercise the functions of a determining authority under Part 7 of that Act; a National Health Service trust established under Section 18 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006; any person who provides services to Welsh Ministers or to any person falling within paragraph (a) or (b); and any body that appears to the Welsh Ministers appropriate to represent Part 4 providers or Part 7 providers, as defined by Section 201A(8).

I turn to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which seek to put those bodies that represent UK producers on the face of the Bill instead of in regulations. The Government will prescribe these bodies in regulations; the illustrative regulations we published merely provided some examples of representative bodies that the Secretary of State may disclose information to, and I assure the noble Lord that further work will be done on this list. We will discuss the list with stakeholders and we will, of course, publicly consult on the list to ensure that we get it right. I know that that was a concern of his.

Finally, we are proposing to table technical amendments to the Bill at Third Reading to reflect the fact that the Northern Ireland Assembly was not able to pass its legislative consent Motion on the Bill before it dissolved, despite the relevant committee having approved it. We will seek to amend the Bill to enable the Northern Ireland components of the Bill to be commenced separately through regulations once it has been possible to secure legislative consent.

As I hope your Lordships will see, the Government have addressed the concerns of the DPRRC. I also hope that I have addressed the concerns of the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I ask noble Lords who have tabled amendments not to press them and support the amendments in my name and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for what he has just said and for the conversations that we had about this group of amendments at Richmond House. As noble Lords will see, I have added my name to the government amendments in this group, because they achieve exactly what I was hoping to achieve when I tabled amendments in Committee. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for supporting me in that intention. Unfortunately, when I withdrew my amendments in favour of the Government’s amendments, my message to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, did not get through, so she has unfortunately failed to withdraw her name. That is why she has asked me that, when the amendments in her name come to be put in order, I should make it clear on her behalf that they are not moved, which will achieve our joint intention. I know that the committee is also grateful to the Minister for hearing our concerns and taking action.

Sustainability and Transformation Plans

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 26th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. STPs are voluntary groupings of all the relevant people—whether that is at the acute level, in primary care or local authorities—coming together under leadership to create the changes. Those then turn into operational plans that are delivered by individual hospitals, primary care settings and so on.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, these plans were supposed to have got under way last October. Have any of them actually started transforming services in their area, or are they still too busy figuring out how to balance the books?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

All 44 sustainability and transformation plans have now been published and are being scrutinised by NHS England, which is helping to ensure that they are as successful as possible. Operational plans will then come forward from April 2017 onwards.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th January 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for these amendments. As both have set out, it is clear that they have been tabled in response to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I am very grateful to the committee for its consideration of the Bill and for providing its report. The committee has concluded that the general power in new Section 264B(1)(l) to describe in regulations any other persons to whom information may be supplied is too wide and not justified at present. I assure noble Lords that I am considering these comments very carefully, and the views expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, have been helpful in explaining the issues.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, would put in the Bill the industry representative bodies to which the Secretary of State can disclose information. The Government would prefer to prescribe these bodies in regulations and have done so in the illustrative regulations—albeit the current version includes only a limited number of such bodies and they are given purely as examples rather than as an attempt to be exhaustive. By prescribing a large number of representative bodies in primary legislation we would, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, admits, lose the flexibility to be able to add new representative bodies, if needed, in regulations.

In its report, the DPRRC was satisfied with the way the Bill was drafted in this area, and it considered the power to prescribe bodies that appear to the Secretary of State to represent manufacturers, distributers or suppliers to be a specific power. The committee thought, however, that the general power to prescribe any other person was too general and suggested that the Government limit the kinds of bodies to which disclosure may be made, as is done with the power to prescribe representative bodies. Like the DPRRC, I believe that the power to prescribe representative bodies is sufficiently specific, while still allowing some flexibility. However, we are giving serious consideration to the general power.

As noble Lords are aware, there is a balance to be struck between ensuring clarity in primary legislation and, at the same time, giving sufficient flexibility to enable arrangements to change in response to external changes to ensure that, in the future, we have flexibility to work with the right stakeholders without requiring primary legislation to do so. I once again reassure the Committee that I am considering these recommendations very carefully and will respond to the DPRRC shortly. I expect, subject to the appropriate procedures, to bring forward proposals on Report. On that basis, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister, and I look forward to, I hope, being copied in to his reply to the committee. I certainly understand what he said about the representative bodies being in regulations and that it is just an illustrative list that we have before us. If the list is in regulations, it is much easier to add a new representative body. It is reasonable to assume that, some day, perhaps one or more new bodies may be set up. However, the general power is another animal altogether. I look forward to hearing from the Minister after he has considered the matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 58 and to the other amendments in the group. This group also reflects concerns expressed by the DPRRC in relation to Clause 7, which deals with information to Welsh Ministers. The substantive amendments are 58, 61 and 66; the others in the group are consequential.

New Section 201A of the NHS Wales Act 2006 will enable Welsh Ministers to require information from producers of health service products to be used in Wales. Subsection (5) of the new section allows regulations to be made for the payment of a penalty if a person contravenes these regulations. Noble Lords may have noticed that there are no equivalent provisions in Clause 6, which inserts new sections into the NHS Act 2006. There is no need, because the original Act already enables regulations to provide for the payment of penalties. However, if we look back at these provisions in the NHS Act 2006, we notice that there are some differences between the penalty sections there and those in the Bill. Specifically, under the NHS Act 2006, there is a limit on the penalty that can be imposed—I think that that is what we have been given in the illustrative regulations. Secondly, any increase in the penalty must be done by affirmative order. In Wales, we have no limit and no affirmative order.

Amendment 58 puts limits on the penalties in this Bill in line with those in the NHS Act 2006, and Amendment 66 changes the relevant bit of the NHS (Wales) Act 2006 so that regulations under new subsection 5B in Amendment 58 would have to be made by the affirmative order procedure. This provides us with consistency, because the provisions in the two pieces of legislation would be similar. I am not wedded to the actual penalty limits that I have laid down, but they are the same as those specified in Section 265 of the NHS Act 2006, so they would be consistent. However, as in this case they would apply to a narrower range of people, it may be appropriate to have a different limit. The main point is that there should be a limit.

Amendment 61 deals with a different issue but reflects what I was trying to do in Clause 6 with my Amendment 49 in the last group. It relates to new Section 201B of the NHS (Wales) Act 2006 on disclosure of information. As with Clause 6, the bodies to whom information can be disclosed are not specified in the Bill. Instead, these can be prescribed by Welsh Ministers. Since there has been no information as to why it is not feasible to specify these further bodies to whom confidential, commercially sensitive information can be disclosed, can the Minister explain why not? Surely it should be possible at least to limit the kinds of bodies to whom disclosure may be made. It seems to me to be a flexibility too far and beyond what is really necessary to ensure the purposes of the Bill. The Delegated Powers Committee regards it as “inappropriate”. Can the Minister convince us of the need for this very broad power?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for her sharp eyes and even sharper suggestions with regard to these amendments, which are again in response to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The committee concluded that the power in Clause 7, which enables Welsh Ministers to make regulations that make provision for payment of a penalty if a provider of pharmaceutical or primary medical services contravenes regulations requiring them to record and provide information about health service products that are required for the health service in Wales, should be consistent with similar provisions in the 2006 Act.

In particular, the committee recommends that the maximum penalty that may be imposed under what would be Section 201 of the NHS (Wales) Act 2006 should be set out in the Bill and that there should be a power to increase this maximum by regulations made subject to the affirmative procedure, as the noble Baroness set out. I assure noble Lords that, as with the previous set of amendments, I am considering these comments very carefully; the views expressed by the noble Baroness have been very helpful in highlighting the issue, for which I am grateful.

Noble Lords will understand that these provisions relate to the powers of the Welsh Ministers, and it is therefore necessary for me to seek the views of Ministers in Wales on this matter. However, I acknowledge the concern that, as drafted, the Bill does not impose a limit on the penalty which may be imposed by Welsh Ministers. Noble Lords will appreciate that, in the case of penalties, the powers in relation to Wales are different from those in relation to the UK as a whole, in so far as Welsh Ministers will be able to impose penalties only on providers of pharmaceutical and primary medical services. In contrast, the 2006 Act allows for penalties to be imposed on manufacturers and distributers, and the size of any penalty should reflect this. It would therefore be disproportionate if the level of maximum fine allowed for in the 2006 Act were to be replicated in the NHS (Wales) Act. I accept, however, that the framework governing the maximum size of any penalty and increasing that maximum should be the same.

Turning to the amendment which would remove the provisions allowing Welsh Ministers to disclose information to persons prescribed in regulations, this is a matter which I understand Welsh Ministers are content to reconsider in light of the DPRRC’s recommendations. I reassure the Committee that I accept the recommendations of the DPRRC regarding limits being placed on the penalties that can be imposed by Welsh Ministers and the need to specify in the Bill the further bodies to which Welsh Ministers may disclose information. I will respond to the DPRRC in due course with proposals once I have discussed them with Ministers in Wales. I intend, subject to the appropriate procedures, to bring forward proposals on Report.

As these will be my final remarks in Committee, I thank all noble Lords for a constructive and informative debate. It has been important to be able to draw on the wisdom of so many former Ministers in making sure that the Bill is properly scrutinised and best equipped to carry out the purposes we have set for it. I have committed to consider many of the issues raised before Report on 7 February, not that far away, and I will be holding as many meetings as I can in the short time available to aid that process. My officials and I are available to noble Lords should they have any other questions or concerns about the Bill, and I look forward to bringing forward any necessary proposals on Report. To conclude on this group, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for his assurance that these matters will be considered before Report. I look forward to hearing the result of his considerations. I am very happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

NHS: Debt

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

It is certainly the case that one part of the system impacts on the other parts, whether that is primary, secondary or social care. There is no denying that and I do not seek to do so. On the picture the noble Lord paints of worsening deficits, in fact, the picture in 2016-17 is considerably better than it was in 2015-16. It has been helped not least by the sustainability and transformation plans. We are putting £1.8 billion into trusts, 95% of which have accepted control totals to get a hold of that financial sustainability. Extra funding is going in. There is a big increase this year for the NHS budget, which will help, as will the extra money for social care; but of course the challenges are there.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that 96% of hospitals say that they employ fewer registered nurses than they themselves have planned for safe staffing of the wards, and some of them employ more healthcare assistants than they had planned for? What does the Minister say to those who suspect that hospitals, in an attempt to deal with their deficits, are employing too few registered nurses for safe staffing of the wards and/or putting less qualified people on the wards?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Clearly, trusts have a responsibility to make sure that they have the staffing right. There are more nursing places available and more coming through training, as we talked about in the House the other day. There has been a general uplift in staffing numbers because of the safety requirements post Francis, especially as we seek to leave the European Union, which will mean that that source of nurses and staff in general will change. We have to train more of our own staff, which is why we are increasing the number of doctor and nurse training places.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I think you only want to modernise something when you are planning to use it. Therefore, I hope the Minister can understand the level of suspicion and worry that we have been hearing from the sector. I understand that the Government want to make the penalty for not complying with the information requirements more proportionate—that is fair enough. But if the Government are not planning to use those powers then why do they want to make that small but fairly significant change?

I am not aware of any competition law action against companies providing medical supplies to say they have abused the system or overcharged. I am aware that an awful lot of the companies producing medical supplies are fairly small and would fall below the £5 million level and therefore not be affected by this. However, some companies that provide a lot of equipment and supplies do come within the scope of what the Government are trying to do, but they are, in fact, very competitive. It is a very competitive market already and, as far as I know, the prices charged are affected by competition. Therefore, to my knowledge, the NHS is not being ripped off. I have asked the Minister whether he has any evidence to the contrary. I have not heard anything yet, but perhaps he will be able to give us something this evening.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank noble Lords for the debate on Clause 5. I am also grateful for the tour d’horizon or history lesson on how this has all come about. It feels as though it has slipped through many nets, for which there are multiple responsibilities around the room.

I will first address the point about consultation. Noble Lords will appreciate it when I say that, personally, I have not had the chance of undertaking that consultation but it is something that I am committed to doing. Whatever has gone before, I can at least give the reassurance that I will meet the relevant bodies in the next few weeks and discuss their concerns ahead of Report. At least in a forward-looking way, I can provide that reassurance.

As everyone has stated, the critical point here is that the 2006 Act gives the Secretary of State the power to control the price of medical supplies and to collect information about medical supplies. What Clause 5 does is to ensure that the same enforcement and territorial extent to provisions apply to controlling the cost of medical supplies and health service medicines. It does not give the Secretary of State any new powers to control the price of medical supplies. There are currently inconsistencies in the enforcement and territorial extent provisions. For example, a contravention or a failure to comply with the current provisions in the 2006 Act for medical supplies can result in a criminal offence. By contrast, the equivalent penalty for medicines is a civil financial penalty. Clause 5, therefore, aligns the enforcement provisions for medical supplies with those for medicines and, in so doing, makes them more proportionate, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has pointed out.

With respect to the territorial extent, the power to control the prices of medical supplies in the NHS Act 2006 currently extends only to England and Wales. Clause 5 would extend the power to control the prices of medical supplies to Scotland and Northern Ireland. That would be consistent with the territorial extent of the powers to control the costs of health service medicines. That is an important point.

A number of noble Lords asked why the Government need the powers to control the prices of medical supplies when they do not currently use them nor have ever used them. That is a perfectly reasonable question to raise and one that occurred to me, too. We do not have any immediate concerns about the pricing of medical supplies. It is true that the market for medical supplies is very different from the market for medicines. It is innovative and competitive, and new medical supplies are generally faced with competition much more quickly than is the case for new medicines. However, I remind noble Lords that until recently we did not think that we needed the powers to set the price of unbranded generic medicines. We thought that competition in the market was working well and keeping prices down. When we realised that the market was not functioning as well as we thought with respect to certain products, and we were faced with companies charging unreasonably high thresholds where they had no competitors, we realised that we did not have sufficient powers to intervene when needed. That is of course one of the reasons for the Bill.

A question was asked about thresholds and when such a provision could be triggered, which is a reasonable question. The two examples I can give are when we had evidence from existing data that there may be an issue with pricing—for example, the reimbursement price that we set in primary care is increasing without an obvious reason—or when there is effectively a bottom-up complaint where patients, clinicians, commissioners or industry raise concerns because it is not obvious what is driving a price rise. I want to minimise the need for future primary legislation on medical supplies pricing controls. The Government should have the ability to intervene, but only when the market is not working well. Whether it is for medicines or medical supplies, it is right that those powers exist but are used only when necessary and proportionately. On that basis, I ask the Committee to agree that Clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

Mental Health and NHS Performance Update

Debate between Baroness Walmsley and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 9th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Minister to his first appearance in his new role. I add thanks from these Benches to all the health and care staff who gave up their Christmas holidays to care for patients.

We welcome the Prime Minister’s attention being turned to mental health, and the emphasis on the roles of schools and the workplace. The NHS of course cannot do the job alone. However, many people are not getting mental health treatment, getting it late, not getting the right treatment or getting it many miles from home, which prevents their families and friends supporting them. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, the money is not getting through to front-line mental health services, despite the £1.4 billion secured from the previous Chancellor by my right honourable friend Norman Lamb when he was coalition Health Minister. Why is that?

Is it not true that if there were not a shortage of funding for other services, CCGs would not be tempted to raid the mental health budget? That is what they are doing. FOI requests by Young Minds, as has been mentioned, show that half of CCGs are using money allocated to children’s mental health to prop up physical health services, which are also in crisis. That is wrong. A recent survey of child and adolescent psychiatrists show that a whopping seven out of 10 of them thought that mental health services for children and young people were inadequate. By any calculation, that is a national disgrace.

Will the Minister ring-fence the money that has been promised to mental health and improve transparency with the publication of the mental health dashboards, which are meant to show how much is being spent on mental health services in every area and on what services? The £1 billion that has already been announced for adult mental health is back-loaded to the end of the Parliament. Will the Government bring it forward to deal with the current crisis? Will they at last acknowledge that there must be a cross-party discussion about how to raise the money needed for health and social care? Will they ensure that the lessons learned in Manchester about integration are spread to other areas? That could save money and provide better service. Will the Government provide more funding for social care? As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has said, without that, nothing will improve.

To return to mental health, I acknowledge that funding is not the whole story. The main point of the report from the values-based CAMHS commission, chaired by my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield, was that there needs to be a shared set of values and a shared language across all those involved with children and young people’s mental health, thereby enabling the system to have widespread change and a far more joined-up response to mental health issues. Does the Minister agree with that? How could it be achieved?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their kind welcome. First, on mental health, which is clearly the subject of the Prime Minister’s Statement today, I think this is a good news day for mental health services. We know that this part of the system has suffered from not being seen by some people as as important as physical health. We have now legislated for parity of esteem, but of course parity of esteem comes about through practice, not just through law, and part of that is about a series of changes to ensure that this is a high-quality system that is available not just for some but for all.

With regard to performance, there is a lot of strength within the system. My predecessor, my noble friend Lord Prior, whose abilities I pay warm tribute to, would always say that there is lots of innovation and quality in the health service. One of the challenges that we face is diffusion. Part of the purpose of the strategy today is about taking best practice and moving it around the system. There is good practice. We have fantastic dementia diagnosis rates, the IAPT system is being copied by other countries and we have a record number of psychiatrists.

As someone who has spent the best part of 15 years working in schools, I think we finally have recognition that something significant and serious is going on with our young people that needs a new approach. With the promise of a Green Paper on children and young people’s mental health, I am optimistic that we have an opportunity to deliver what the noble Baroness said—getting everyone who cares about this subject around the table and making sure that we deliver the kind of strategy that is going to do two things. The first is to help schools and young people to identify mental illness where it exists and to access treatment; the second and, arguably, more important, is to build resilience so that young people are better able to resist the various pressures that they are under and to stay in good mental health, because that is our ultimate goal.

There is £1 billion to implement the plan. It is reasonable to ask how it will get to the front line; clearly, this money should not be being diverted to other services. The noble Baroness said that transparency was critical here. CCGs need to report in a much more detailed, open and honest way about where that money is being spent, so that we can ensure that it is going to front-line mental health services.

There is a challenge every winter; that is not unique to this Government. The Statement pays tribute to the incredible work of the staff in the NHS and social care system, and I add my voice to that. They are working at an extraordinary level and under a lot of pressure. Clearly, unacceptable things are going on, such as trolley waits of more than 12 hours. The key is being prepared and, where there are problems, working out what to do about them. The NHS has been well prepared for this winter, with £400 million going into preparedness plans, which it has tested to ensure that they are robust. Although I have been in the department for only five days, judging by the interest, passion and application of Ministers and officials, I can say that a close eye is being kept on this not just in the department but in NHS England and NHSI. As we say in the Statement, we will continue to support trusts to deal with challenges, particularly in fragile areas—some of which, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, we have known about for some time. Help is going in.

On social care, there was more money in the Autumn Statement, which I am sure was welcome, and a change to front-load the precept, which will make a difference, and we have the better care fund, so funding is increasing. However, more people are accessing the service, and we know why: because of the demographic pressures. Since 2010 there are now some 1 million more over-65s, so the system needs the extra support the Government have provided. The noble Baroness was quite right when she talked about integration. One opportunity that we have in the five-year forward view through the sustainability and transformation plans is the creation of much better integrated systems which focus not simply on the number of beds, although that is important, but on delivering the best outcomes. As we know, lots of people in hospitals would be better cared for if they were in the community or at home. One challenge that we face is ensuring that those patients who would be better treated in that environment have the opportunity to move out, freeing up those beds for those who need them.

We are committed to the four-hour target, as my right honourable friend outlined in the Statement, and have delivered many more doctors and nurses to ensure that we can deliver a high-quality service. We are dealing with 9 million more visits to A&E every year than we were in 2000. We need to ensure that we are delivering a service which continues to provide the best quality care in whatever setting is most appropriate, and never lose sight of the fact that A&E is there for a specific purpose, particularly for the support of the most vulnerable. About a quarter of A&E admissions are from the over-65 age group, which is growing, so this will get more challenging.

On the specific issue in Worcestershire, it is of course a terrible tragedy. The trust and NHS Improvement are investigating, and I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment at this time, other than to say that we will be watching very closely what happens as a consequence of those investigations. Plans are already in place to support the trust and ensure that it can improve, but it is not appropriate for me to comment on the specific deaths that occurred.

We know that additional resource is not just about money; it is about service configuration and how we deliver a better service. We are providing £10 billion more in real terms to the NHS over the course of this Parliament. That is what we were asked to deliver, and that is what we are delivering, in concert with NHS England. It is the responsibility of everyone within the system to ensure that we deliver the best possible service.