Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Hendy

Report stage
Monday 21st July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, in response to the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, I want to explore the fact that we currently have strong representation from the unions. We have seen, through recent strikes, that there is an ability to go out there and voice your opinion.

My worry—I would like to have this recorded—as a businessperson, as my registered interests lay out, is that most of the businesses impacted will be SMEs, which are already predominantly very good employers. Most small and medium-sized businesses work with their workforce. We all wish to do well because we want better productivity, and it is not in our interests not to do so.

I remind noble Lords that my own grandfather was one of the founders of the Indian Workers’ Association because, at that time, unions were not properly representing minority communities. My worry is that we are going to go back to a place where people from minority communities, who do not actually know whether they have a choice to be part of a union or not, will have to come back into a union—whether or not they know that they are a member. I want to know from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, how that would be clarified. There will be many from minority communities who work incredibly hard, are ambitious and aspirational, and want to end up owning their own business, who find that working and learning from employers is the best way to do it.

I fully support my noble friend’s amendment because I think that the world has moved on so much. Technology has enabled us to do so many things differently so that we are far more able to hold employers to account. There is no place to hide for bad employers. I do not think that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, will actually make a lot of difference to today’s workforce, as we are using a lot of new technologies to be able to make sure that the workplace is a much fairer place.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

I do not really recognise the workplace that the noble Baroness describes. The fact of the matter is that only some—

Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Verma and Lord Hendy

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

I absolutely agree that most cases never get to a full hearing; only a tiny minority ever do. The noble Baroness is right that many cases settle, of course. Many are conciliated, because there is now compulsory conciliation by ACAS, but many are withdrawn by the employee. You have to visualise it, as I am sure the noble Baroness does: most employees bringing an unfair dismissal claim are completely unrepresented. They are on their own, so all the expense, research and preparation that have to be done must be done by them personally. That is a huge disincentive. Many claims—tens of thousands of them—are simply not brought because it is not worth the employees’ while to do it.

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that the case is exactly the same for small employers? They too will be in the position of having to deal with tribunals in the same way—hence why, as often as not, the settlements are taking place.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

Of course; that is always the way whenever there is litigation. Whatever the subject matter, people do not want the burden of defending the case and the people bringing the case do not want the burden of bringing it. That is just the reality of litigation.

I will say one last thing before I sit down. The argument that the noble Lords and noble Baronesses opposite have put forward is all about what they perceive to be the consequences of this matter, which my noble friend Lord Monks just addressed. But nobody can seriously advance the case that employers should have the right to dismiss anybody unfairly and without recourse to the law.