The UK’s Demographic Future

Baroness Verma Excerpts

Thursday 11th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Verma (Con)]

My Lords, it is good to be following the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, because I want to pick up on some of his words. First, I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for this important, timely debate and the report, which I have read. I found it a really good toolkit for all politicians to use if they are going to take the issue of immigration, migration, integration and social cohesion seriously.

My noble friend started the debate very thoughtfully, and every noble Lord who has contributed has tried to show and highlight some of the issues that we have all failed to discuss and debate properly. I am an immigrant. I came to this country as a nine month-old baby with immigrant parents from India, but my grandfather was here in 1938. We see ourselves as a family who have properly socially integrated; we have taken on the values and the good things that this country has enabled families like mine to have.

I am slightly disappointed with the Labour Benches for not having more speakers—I know that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, wanted to speak but was slightly caught out on time—because this debate should be about all of us being incredibly concerned about the state of what is happening in our country. I come from Leicester, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester spoke earlier. He, like I, will be witnessing the discord that is happening among communities on a daily basis. Communities are now becoming very inward looking and integrating less with each other, and Leicester is one of the most mixed communities in this country.

Following the noble Lord, Lord Green, I feel that every time people like he or I try to raise the debate around these subjects, we are shot down as being racists or irresponsible, and for being those who start the discord and harm in each other’s communities. I remember when we were debating photo ID for elections in this Chamber; the Liberal Benches reminded me of how the BAME and ethnic minority communities will feel that they cannot be part of the voting system. Wider communities of people who were not born here or who were born here but come from immigrant backgrounds find these sorts of assumptions offensive. We, by and large, are integrated and want to integrate, but we have focused for far too long on those communities that have decided to stay outside the mainstream of this country. We have pandered to them and allowed them to socially exclude themselves and not sign up to the values that they and their previous generations had come to this country for. They came for liberal opportunities—to be able to be yourself, thrive and grow without being restricted by your caste or your country of origin.

It is a really serious debate for me. I get very irritated when we cannot have an honest debate about something that worries most of the population, including my family. My children are worried sick about the state of the debate in this country today. I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s; this toxic debate was happening then and it was difficult. As a child, I would walk out and be racially abused on a daily basis, as it was okay to do that then. We have moved a long way in the right direction, as people accept that there is a cultural mix in this country, but it was a mix in which everybody tried to be part of the wider community.

My mother, like my noble friend Lord Horam, was born in 1939; she came to this country as a 20 year-old and she wanted to be part of the wider community. As I have said many times, she learned English. I have heard mentioned on a number of occasions today that the new immigrants are not able to speak English, but I can tell your Lordships that there are people who have been here for 20 or 30 years who have not learned to speak English. Their women are not allowed to go beyond their square mile because they want control of their communities.

I have an adult social care business, which I highlight is in the register of interests. We come across families where the children born in particular communities—they are not restricted to one faith, by the way—do not meet any child of any other community: they are home-schooled, and they go to the chemist and the grocery shop of their community. How are we going to get integration if we allow this to happen in our communities and cities here?

What happened in Rotherham and across the country has happened because we have been complicit in staying silent for far too long. Whether it is the institutions of the public sector such as the police or social work, we have been complicit. Whenever it was raised, the response was, “Well, you’re a racist”. I am afraid that the two major parties then backed away, and it was to the detriment of the wider community.

I have been in politics for a long time. I was 11 years old when I went on my first march against racism, because it is difficult to be a little kid and have names thrown at you every single day. I went on marches because I wanted to show, alongside white people who stood by me, that we cannot tolerate racism. That does not mean we accept that other communities can come along and force-feed, and not integrate into our community here.

I spoke to my mother before I came to this debate. I said “Mum, I’m going to this debate”, and she said, “Tell them. I’m going to tell you to tell them this: you come to this country, you accept everything, and you enrich it with things that can be made better”. Now, my mum is a force for—well, she is a force—but the one thing she taught me was that we should never ever give in to a small number of people with large voices. They are loud voices, but they do not account for the majority of this country. Somebody asked me the other day, “Do you think Britain is becoming more racist?” I said, “No. What has happened is this: those voices of a smaller number of people have just got louder, and the large majority have just become quiet”. I think we need to respond to that properly. I stand here and say to all my colleagues, and all those people across the Benches over there, that we cannot give a vacuum, because, if we give a vacuum, bad things happen. Sadly, for far too long, we have allowed that vacuum to get bigger and bigger.

Finally, I say this to all those communities who will definitely read this and then send me abusive messages. Any community that comes to this country has to accept the norms, values and traditions of this country. If you do not like it, then please find somewhere else to go, because you are creating disharmony for those of us who have nowhere else we want to go. This is our country; we love it to pieces; the flag belongs to me as much as it belongs to you; and I, and we, will fight to the core, like my grandfather did for the British Army, to protect this land, but we will not allow negativity around all our communities to be taken up by a small group of people.

I apologise for my gravelly voice—I am getting a cold and do not want to give it to my noble friend on the Front Bench. I am now going to end by saying one thing, which I point to the Labour Benches. When they lifted the two-child cap on universal credit, they managed to say that large families have to take little responsibility. I say the following to them, as somebody who genuinely worries. I come from a community where we see education as important to lift us out, to be socially mobile upwards. A lot of Indian families came to this country with £3 in their pockets and have been very successful, because the education system here allowed them to be. Please think very carefully when doing legislation that pushes people backwards rather than forwards.