West Coast Main Line

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Many national rail contracts are already in place. Eventually, in due course, the Government would like to move to a different sort of passenger service contract. There is nothing out of the ordinary with this contract. It compares well to those of other train operating companies.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, in response to questions from my noble friend Lady Taylor and other noble Lords, the Minister talked about passenger satisfaction statistics. Can she say a bit more about the datasets behind these? What is the dataset? Who collected it? What was the sample size? I find these are often very small. I appreciate that the Minister may not have the information with her, but perhaps she could write to me and to other Members of the House with these details.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will happily write to the noble Lord and to all Members of the House with an interest in this to set out how the net advocacy scores are calculated. Unfortunately, I do not have the information to hand.

Rail Services

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, may I just ask the Minister—perhaps I missed it—about bonus payments to executives? I may have missed it, but why do we think those are paid?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very happy to discuss what I know about it. Obviously, bonus payments are a matter for the companies themselves. They are not authorised by DfT or anything like that; it is a matter for the companies. There is often this thing about—and I think the noble Baroness referred to it—dividends, and I think it was £12 million. I cannot attest as to whether that £12 million is right or not, but I know that dividends that were agreed quite some time ago relate to a period from pre-Covid. Noble Lords may or may not be aware that the independent evaluation of the different rail contracts has been published only up to September 2021. There is still some more information to come; there is always a lag. Sometimes people say, “You are rewarding for failure.” No, that would be for a period that is not the current period; it would be for a period that was quite some time ago, because we, quite rightly given the complexities of the railway system, take the time for independent people to evaluate by the different criteria that are clearly set out, the different reasons why delays happen, why cancellations happen or why a company may or may not be performing as it should. Of course, we publish those things, but there is always a delay. Therefore, the money might not match up with the period that we are currently in. That is always important to remember.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will put that in writing. I have some data here on executive bonuses. The total amount for the executive team for the financial year to 31 March 2021—a little while ago, which obviously covers a prior period—was £279,059. For the executive team, the Virgin Trains bit, it was more, at £2.5 million, but that of course related to a period a long time previously. The following year, total bonuses were £461,000.

I want to put on record that 20% of train drivers earn over £70,000 a year. I am not necessarily comparing the two, but this focus on bonuses for senior executives sometimes means that we do not look at what has happened to train drivers’ pay, which has gone up by more than the average over 10 years. As I say, 20% of them earn over £70,000 a year.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Statement refers to an extension to 15 October this year and says that the department is looking for improvements from Avanti over the next few months. It talks about more reliable weekend services, continued reductions in cancellations and improvements in passenger information during planned and unplanned disruption. Can the Minister say more about the measures that will be used to ensure that we get those improvements? If we are back here again in September and we have not had those improvements, where will we stand? Avanti needs to know that the Government are prepared, if need be, to take away its contract. At the moment, looking at the report, I am worried that they are not prepared to do that, and Avanti needs to hear from the Government that they are. Otherwise, there is no impetus to improve.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Absolutely. For the complete and utter avoidance of doubt, the Government are considering and will consider all options for both Avanti and TPE if they do not meet the required level of service. All the improvements we are talking about—to weekend services and passenger communications, and reducing cancellations—are set out in the recovery plan agreed with the Office of Rail and Road. It is content with it, and I know that the Rail Minister meets certain train operating companies weekly to go through the recovery plan. As I say, all possible options remain on the table. We have given the six-month extension to Avanti, until October. We will be making a further Statement on TPE when its contract ends towards the end of May, but it is too early to prejudge what the outcome will be.

As I say, we continue to look closely at the improvements that have been made. There have been significant improvements in the face of some challenging industrial relations, but I believe we are potentially over the worst now. I very much hope that we can bring our railway back to where I am sure all railway workers and passengers want it to be, and where our nation needs it to be.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

The Minister has told the House that there is a weekly meeting with the Rail Minister, and that is good to hear, but what else is happening behind the scenes? We would like to know a bit more about what is going on, because we all want to ensure a better rail service. Although I do not live in the north-east, I am conscious that many Members here do. What more is going on with the department? The Minister works with the Rail Minister every day, so what is actually happening?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am struggling to understand the basis of the noble Lord’s question. What is happening is that the officials are working with the train operating companies and those companies are working with their workforces. Any contractual relationship with an organisation within the Department for Transport requires greater or lesser oversight, depending on what is happening. I cannot really add much more, other than it is government being government with one of its contractors.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am happy to do so but, given that I have a tiny bit of extra time, I will knock another one on the head. On the booking window, I agree that it is very important that passengers have the confidence to book ahead. The booking window now extends to 12 June—another area where Avanti has shown real improvement. We understand that the weekend booking window is shorter, at five weeks, but that is in order to take into account engineering works. That is another example of the infrastructure side of the business impacting on the services side, and of course we want them to work closely together.

I will look at some of the noble Baroness’s other questions. I cannot see too many that I have not answered, but I will ask officials to look through Hansard and we will write accordingly.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, my apologies: maybe I am not explaining myself very well. Clearly, many Members here, and the travelling public, are frustrated by what is going on at the moment. I am trying to find out from the Minister, in addition to what is in the Statement and the weekly meetings, what work is going on between the officials and the rail companies. How do we ensure that when we get to October, we have those improvements? If there are still problems, what is happening next week, the week after and the week after that to ensure that we are not sitting here in September saying, “We’ve got another extension for six months. What we need to see is more improvements”? Currently, we still have all these problems, and it appears to the public that actually, not much is happening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is of course in an extremely privileged position in that she can table Oral Questions or ask me Parliamentary Written Questions whenever she likes. I would be happy to answer those. I am sure that over the period, we will be back in your Lordships’ House to discuss Avanti; indeed, I believe there is a topical Oral Question on Thursday. I am not expecting that I will have anything at all different to say by then, but perhaps we can have a rehash of where we are.

Every now and again I have a little look at Avanti on social media, and things are much quieter than they used to be. What I see much more of now is the disruption caused by the strikes.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I would like to move on to TPE. Will the Minister confirm that when we get the report—and I accept there will be another Statement about TPE before the end of May—taking the contract off it is still one of the options on the table?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is.

Avanti West Coast

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, listening to the Answer, I am even more puzzled that the Department for Transport has awarded Avanti a £4 million bonus for operational performance, customer satisfaction and acting as a good and efficient operator.

When this issue was last raised, on 4 July, the Minister conceded that Avanti’s management of the west coast main line was terrible. Since then, ticket sales have been suspended, timetables have been cut, and now only 53% of trains are arriving on time. I am sure she can hear the frustration of the travelling public. Can she explain why the Government are not doing something immediately to end this shambles and outrage on one of our country’s major lines?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree that there is considerable passenger outrage, and rightly so, but this is not an issue that can be solved quickly. It is a twofold problem. On the first level, there is a backlog of training due to Covid. Training simply had to stop during that time. To train a train driver takes two years, and rightly so, because it is a safety-critical environment; we need to make sure that our train drivers drive our trains safely. However, that means that there is a backlog in training which will take a while to resolve. With the slightly reduced number of services, that could be coped with. As I said in the Answer, this problem stems from the unprecedented, immediate and near-total cessation of drivers volunteering for rest-day working. Do I think that operators should need to rely on rest-day working? No, I do not. We should run a modern, seven-day railway, and I hope that the unions will agree.

Railways: Bridge Strikes

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Absolutely, and I can reassure the noble Baroness that I have already been on the case in this matter. Bridge strikes have not suddenly arrived on our doorstep recently, although I am pleased to say they seem to be coming down in number, which is a relief. I wrote to the Traffic Commissioners on 17 September last year, after a terrible bus crash—noble Lords may remember it—where the top of the bus, which had children on board, went into the bridge. It was a very serious matter. I asked the commissioner to remind all operators of their obligations, and he wrote me a very helpful response just a week later setting out a range of measures he would take, not only communicating with the drivers and operators but setting out what steps must happen when an event has occurred—there is usually a public inquiry, the driver may face suspension or revocation in more serious cases, and the operator can face sanctions relating to their licensing. So the Government do take this matter very seriously.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Berkeley has highlighted a very important issue. Is the noble Baroness satisfied that the signage as set out in the Highway Code is as clear as it should be? I lived in the east Midlands, in Derbyshire, where there are a number of bridges. It is about not only the height of the vehicle but its width; sometimes the lorry arrives and the signage has not been put out properly for it to see the problem in advance. Can we look at that? If the noble Baroness is going to tell me that the signage is correct, what procedures are there to review the advice from time to time to ensure that the prevailing view is actually correct?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The regulations setting out what signs are needed are actually set out in chapter 4 of the Traffic Signs Manual, which is published by the DfT. We set out comprehensive advice on signage approaching a bridge to make sure that reduced height clearances are clearly set out in advance. It is up to the highways authority, under Section 41 of the Highways Act 1980, to make sure that the signage is appropriate. If noble Lords are aware of signs which they feel are insufficient, they should get in touch with the local highways authority, which has a responsibility to make sure the signage is correct. We feel confident that the Traffic Signs Manual sets out exactly what is required.

Assaults on Emergency Workers (Offences) Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 29th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his comment and I will certainly do what I can to unpick the figure of 15,000. My understanding is that much of it will be the displacement of existing assault offences under Section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act and assault on a police constable offences under Section 89 of the Police Act 1996.

On a final note, I would like to discuss one particular group of emergency workers who are included in this Bill: prison officers. In doing so, I would like to share my experience. Several months ago, I visited Her Majesty’s Prison Brixton. I was very well looked after by a prison officer called John Melhuish. He showed me round the wing, introduced me to a group of prisoners who I chatted with, and generally made me feel very welcome and made sure that my visit went smoothly. I wrote to thank him for the visit and for the work that he does every day. Mr Melhuish wrote back to say thank you for the thank you, because prison officers do not get very many. It is therefore my great pleasure to say a public thank you to all of them today.

Prison officers are the unsung heroes of emergency workers. They operate out of sight but they should never be out of mind. They respond to some of life’s most serious crises and emergencies involving some of society’s most challenging people. As the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, explained so vividly, they do so in a very challenging environment. The courage of prison officers in these situations is remarkable. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out is true for emergency workers in general, prison officers cannot simply remove themselves from the scene. I would like to recognise this today and to state once again that we welcome the Bill on behalf of all the emergency services, including on behalf of prison officers. I again thank all those who have brought the Bill this far. I commend the many staff associations that have been working hard to push these issues to the fore—the Police Federation, the Prison Officers’ Association and many others.

I cannot agree with my noble friend Lord Wasserman that this Bill is derisory. It is reasonable and proportionate. The protection of our emergency workers affects us all. This sentiment has been reflected in the strength of the cross-party support and collaboration that has gone into the drafting of the Bill. It is this cross-party energy that has resulted in the Bill as it stands. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, said, it is almost perfectly formed.

I urge Members of your Lordships’ House to support the Bill in its current form so that we can swiftly deliver the legal changes that our front-line emergency workers deserve.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, when the Minister addressed the comments of my noble friend Lord Browne on covering RNLI workers on the coast, she assumed that that would cover such workers in Scotland. Clause 4(1) of the Bill states:

“This Act extends to England and Wales only”.


Perhaps the Minister will write to me and clarify that.

Immigration White Paper

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer to the Question given in the other place by the Immigration Minister. Her problem is the Government’s lack of any credibility on this. We have Boris Johnson and Michael Gove charging round seeking to undermine the Prime Minister, and they were recently joined by Jacob Rees-Mogg. The Government’s action, particularly on immigration, is making us an international laughing stock. Will the Minister explain to the House why publication has again been postponed? Is there anything in the department, even in draft, or are there just sheets of blank white paper sitting in the Home Office? What assurance can she give the House that we will not be sitting here again in a few months’ time with another postponement? The Minister was not specific on when she will come back to us. We would like to know that we will not be here again in a few months with another postponement.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. On the timing, it is clear that we are considering a range of options for the future immigration system. This is incredibly important. We will set out initial plans in the coming months. We have to make sure that all decisions we make for the future immigration system are based on evidence and engagement. I encourage all noble Lords and those they talk to to consult the Government about what they would like a future system to look like. We are already in consultation with a wide range of representatives from business, universities and various countries and when we are satisfied that we have the evidence and have completed the consultation, we will make our decision.

Criminal Finances Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 162, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. It would strengthen Clause 44, which is in a part of the Bill concerned with corporate offences of failure to prevent tax evasion. Failure to pay the right levels of tax due as an individual or as a corporate body hurts everyone. Having robust procedures in place to combat these offences is important. Some corporate entities will employ lawyers and accountants to minimise their tax liability, but where that steps over the line into tax evasion we have to be prepared to take swift action.

The clause so far will place a requirement on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to publish and prepare guidance, using the word “must”, which is not something we often see in government Bills—I have always thought parliamentary draftspersons preferred “shall”—but since it uses the word “must”, noble Lords can draw from that that great importance is implied about this guidance on the procedures. The idea is to help relevant bodies. The Bill then moves on and says,

“can put in place to”,

which negates the emphasis in the earlier part of the clause.

The amendment from the noble Baroness would place the right emphasis, saying that relevant bodies “shall have regard to” this important advice prepared by the Treasury and published by the Chancellor. The Government clearly thought it was important that companies should be aware of this advice. I hope they will tell us why they think their wording is sufficient and that that of the noble Baroness is not necessary in this case.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for tabling this amendment, which allows us to discuss the Government’s guidance on the new corporate offences in Part 3 of the Bill. Part 3 creates two new offences for relevant bodies that fail to prevent the criminal facilitation of tax evasion. It also provides a defence for a body to show that it has put in place reasonable prevention procedures designed to prevent such criminal facilitation.

The Government produced guidance on the offences, and the related defence, in 2015 and conducted a full public consultation on it. Much of the guidance focuses on the operation of the defence and helps to inform businesses’ understanding of how to determine what prevention procedures are reasonable in their circumstances. The guidance has been discussed extensively with a wide range of businesses and organisations both within the UK and overseas. Following the consultation, the updated guidance was published last year.

In addition to the government guidance, officials have been working with a number of representative bodies to support them in producing their own sector-specific guidance, which can be endorsed by the Chancellor if it is clearly in keeping with the overarching government guidance. The Chancellor’s endorsement of external guidance will provide a hallmark of quality for individual businesses to identify good practice for their sector.

The government guidance makes it clear that it is just that: guidance. It does not set out a tick-box exercise of mandatory requirements for businesses but rather six principles to help each business decide what prevention procedures, if any, are reasonable for them in their individual circumstances.

The government guidance makes it clear that, for each business, there may be a number of appropriate approaches for them to take and that departure from suggested procedures will not mean that an organisation does not have reasonable prevention procedures. Likewise, different organisations may implement the same or similar procedures differently due to their individual circumstances. For example, what is reasonable for a large, multinational financial institution will be different from what is reasonable for a small, domestic retail business.

Conversely, while departing from the guidance will not mean that a relevant body does not have reasonable prevention procedures, nor does complying with the guidance necessarily guarantee that prevention procedures are reasonable. The guidance is not intended to be a safe harbour.

The new offences also provide a defence for a business where it was reasonable for it to have no procedures in place. A business can therefore avail itself of the defence without having followed the Government’s guidance if it was reasonable for it to have no procedures in place; for example, because the risks it faced were so remote that it would be unduly burdensome for it to put in place prevention procedures.

I hope that noble Lords will therefore agree that it is not necessary, and may impose undue burden, to force businesses to have regard to the government guidance. Those businesses which need to put in place prevention procedures and which seek to be compliant will likely already have regard to the government guidance. This has been demonstrated by the excellent engagement from many sectors on the development of the guidance. Accordingly, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I am happy with the amendment. It is, unfortunately, necessary in this situation. I hope the parties can get round the table and get the Administration back and up and running again.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments and, of course, I will write with further clarification.

Criminal Finances Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The noble Baroness’s amendment is obviously a probing amendment, and I hope that we will get a response from the Government Front Bench that clarifies the situation.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her scrutiny of these provisions. Her Amendment 107 seeks to require the Secretary of State to define the seniority of SFO staff so that not all have access to POCA powers. I appreciate her concern at the extension of the powers conferred by POCA but I hope I can reassure her by explaining our reasons for extending powers to SFO officers.

As the noble Baroness is undoubtedly aware, the SFO is responsible for investigating some of the most serious cases of fraud, bribery and corruption. To effectively combat complex crime, it is vital that SFO officers have access to the most effective legislative tools. Currently, only SFO officers who have accredited financial investigator status have access to POCA powers. This is at variance with other agencies such as the police, the NCA, HMRC and Immigration Enforcement, whose officers have direct access to these powers whether or not they are financial investigators.

It is logical and appropriate that these powers are made available to all SFO officers, both to ensure consistency of approach across agencies and to ensure that non-accredited SFO officers have access to POCA powers when investigating complex crimes, which may include investigating the proceeds of crime.

I hope I can further reassure the noble Baroness that all agencies adopt a process whereby applications made under POCA are considered and approved by an appropriate management chain before they are submitted to court. This ensures that all officers, of whatever grade or rank—even the janitor—are required to consider the necessity and proportionality of any application they make.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me to explain the rationale for this position—particularly the need to make powers available to a wide range of officers involved in the investigation of complex, acquisitive crime. I trust that she will feel inclined not to press this amendment and, accordingly, I invite her to withdraw it.

Criminal Finances Bill

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we now come to two proposed changes that the Government are seeking to make to the seizure and forfeiture powers set out in Chapter 3 of Part 1 of the Bill. In the House of Commons we introduced amendments to allow law enforcement agencies to seize casino chips and gaming vouchers where they had the suspicion that they were either the proceeds of crime or would be used to commit further offences. The Government were also asked to consider whether similar provisions could be introduced to allow the seizure of betting slips. Government Amendments 80, 82, 83 and 138 to 140 make such provision. If law enforcement agencies suspect that the funds used to place a bet are the proceeds of crime, they will be able to seize the betting slip. These provisions will be subject to the same safeguards as for cash seizure and we will be working with bookmakers and their trade associations to ensure that they are used effectively.

At present, Clause 14 allows for the seizure and forfeiture of moveable stores of value but makes no allowance for deductions for legal expenses on the part of the person the item was seized from. Government Amendments 88, 90 to 101 and 142 to 155 will therefore allow for a deduction to meet legal expenses from recovered sums following the forfeiture of the item. Where appropriate, the court will determine whether legal expenses should be paid and will provide for that as part of the forfeiture order. These amendments make similar provisions in Schedule 3 in relation to items seized where there is a suspicion of terrorist financing. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I am happy to support these amendments, which are both sensible and proportionate. Ensuring that betting slips can be seized is a sensible move, as indeed is the whole series of amendments.