National Air Traffic Services: Operational Failure

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be well aware, we retained EU 261, which became UK 261, which puts certain obligations on the airlines to provide information on rights, refunds or rerouting, and care and assistance. Broadly, that is working very well. The CAA already takes action on the airlines not complying with that. The noble Baroness may have seen, a few weeks ago, that the CAA reached an agreement with Wizz Air to go back over many years to rectify some of the times when it had not treated passengers in line with those obligations. However, the Government will legislate, when parliamentary time allows, to give the CAA additional administrative powers to enforce consumer laws.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I was heavily involved in the original regulation 261 on passenger rights 20 years ago and I understand fully the criteria for exceptional circumstances, which was the case with NATS recently. However, can my noble friend tell us what mechanism is in place for the airlines to recover financial losses caused not only by the recent air traffic failure but by other third-party providers involved, such as ground handling companies, so that passengers can be compensated in a fair and proper way by the airlines?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I think I have already outlined, there is no mechanism by which airlines can seek financial compensation directly from NATS in this circumstance. However, there is a mechanism whereby charges can be reduced in the future if NATS does not meet its service targets.

Rail Strikes: Impact Assessment

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Thursday 8th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, let us focus a little on the railway workers themselves. I have the utmost respect for the work that they do. During the pandemic, the Government supported the rail industry to an enormous amount. In fact, it was not the Government: it was the taxpayer. The amount was £31 billion, which is equivalent to £300,000 for every single worker in the industry. Not one of them lost their jobs and, even more, not one of them was even furloughed. The railway sector now needs to modernise. We need a seven-day railway and, in return for that modernisation, it is right that the Government have put a reasonable offer on the table. We believe that there should be a referendum among RMT members about that offer.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, a number of us travel a great deal on the railways, and we are aware that there is now some disquiet with some members of the RMT about the situation that they are in. Many people do not know that members of the RMT do not receive strike pay, which is quite common in many other unions, so they are penalised every time they take a day off on strike and lose a full day’s pay. There is no remuneration at all. There is an offer on the table, and these negotiations have been going on for several months, so does my noble friend the Minister agree that we should put that offer to those workers themselves? Then we can determine whether the offer on the table is sufficient or not.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is of course completely right. As the frequency of strikes has increased as we head towards Christmas, and of course over the special period that is Christmas itself, it is absolutely right that we ask the workers—or indeed that the RMT chooses to ask its workers—whether they can really afford this around Christmas, and to think about their long-term career within the railways and the damage being done to the ridership of the railways. We are going to see even lower demand than we did before. It is not going to make for a long-term sustainable solution.

Rail Dispute: Michael Ford QC

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I did not say what the noble Lord has just said I said. I said that the negotiations are between the employer and the union. I set out very clearly how and at what level those negotiations are taking place nationally. On the one hand, there are a set of negotiations with the Rail Delivery Group, which represents the train operating companies, and there are also negotiations going on with Network Rail, particularly around the reforms to transform—the important reforms that we need in order to have the modern and efficient railway that our country deserves.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

Thank you. My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that these rail disputes are less about terms and conditions, and more about party politics?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The truth of the matter is that the negotiations that are happening, and have been offered daily, are about many different things. Sometimes things get narrowly conflated, or get very heated, but at the heart of all this is the fact that we must get a modern and efficient railway. The Government have that at the front of their mind and give the mandate to the employers—that is absolutely clear—and I hope that this will be resolved as soon as possible.

P&O Ferries

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Tuesday 22nd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, the Government are watching the services and their capacity levels very closely at the moment. Our assessment is that there is sufficient capacity with other operators. For example, at the short straits, Eurotunnel combined with the other operators will provide sufficient capacity. Obviously, we are monitoring this on an hourly basis and working very closely with operators to see how they can put on extra ships to ensure that freight and passengers are able to move appropriately.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, as a former trade union negotiator, albeit in my past life and in the airline industry, there were times when we had to negotiate under the most difficult circumstances, particularly concerning downsizing or cost savings. Schemes such as early retirement, voluntary severance and, often, flexible contracts were ways to resolve this issue. Fortunately, we never had to dismiss an employee. Notwithstanding the appalling behaviour of P&O, as has been clearly echoed by Members across this Chamber, could the Minister tell me how long the negotiations took between the trade unions and P&O regarding these redundancies? Were the paid-up members of the trade unions aware of the consequences of an agreement not being reached between the trade unions and P&O? If the Minister does not have this information to hand at present, could she look into this matter with some urgency? In my opinion, while the trade unions are clearly not responsible for these job losses, they were a huge influence in the negotiations which took place.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can say to my noble friend that we do not believe that there was consultation with the unions, which is one of the big problems here. We have asked for urgent information as to how many conversations there have been. It is our impression, at this current time, that there have not been any conversations. If there were none, that may well be unlawful. That would be up to the employees to challenge via a tribunal. It will also depend on where the jurisdiction for the contract of employment actually lands. My noble friend is quite right that we need to dig into this in an urgent way to ensure that unions are not locked out of these circumstances in the future.

Transport Act 2000 (Air Traffic Services Licence Modification Appeals) (Prescribed Aerodromes) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Tuesday 25th January 2022 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the Transport Act 2000. The regulations set out which airports may appeal licence modification decisions made by the Civil Aviation Authority, or CAA, in respect of the en-route air traffic services licence granted under Section 6 of the Transport Act 2000. In essence, this instrument will ensure that the aerodromes likely to be materially affected by a decision to modify a licence condition are able to appeal those decisions.

Air traffic management services in the UK fall into two categories. The first are terminal air navigation services provided at individual airports. They support arrivals, departures, and planes in the vicinity of the airport typically up to an altitude of 7,000 feet. This is a competitive market, with airports procuring these services from a number of possible organisations or providing their own. The second are for planes outside of these areas, such as planes at cruising altitude, or planes being guided to gateways where they can be handed over to terminal control services of airports. These services are delivered by a monopoly provider, regulated under the en-route air traffic licence.

The Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021—the ATMUA Act—updated the Transport Act 2000 to give the CAA a more effective power to modify the conditions of air traffic services licences. Currently, the only licence which has been granted is held by NATS (En Route) plc, also known as NERL, to provide certain air traffic services in the United Kingdom. Under the previous framework, the CAA could only modify the conditions of this licence with consent from the licence holder or via a determination by the Competition and Markets Authority.

To modernise the licensing framework, alongside the powers to modify the licence conditions the Act also introduced a new appeal process into the Transport Act 2000, which gives appeal rights in respect of licence modifications to three parties. The first is NERL, the licence holder; the second is the owner or operator of an aircraft whose interests are materially affected by the decision; and/or an owner or manager of a “prescribed aerodrome” whose interests are materially affected by the decision. Should any of these parties wish to appeal the decision to modify a licence condition, they could appeal to the CMA on one of more of the following grounds, namely: that the decision was based on an error of fact; that the decision was wrong in law; and/or that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion. For the relevant aerodromes to be able to appeal licence modification decisions, they must be prescribed in secondary legislation, which is what this draft instrument seeks to do.

Turning to the content of the SI, the CAA can modify the conditions set out within NERL’s licence. A licence condition relates to operational matters, such as the requirements which the licence holder must meet to maximise safety and efficiency, and includes conditions relating to control of charges—the prices that users of NERL’s services pay for the services that they receive. To modify a licence condition, the CAA first must publish a notice in relation to the proposed modification. It must state that it is proposing to modify the licence and set out what the modification is, the reasons for it and its effect. It must then give a reasonable period for NERL and the other relevant stakeholders to make representations. The Department for Transport consulted on this policy in 2017. Stakeholders were broadly supportive of the policy and no aerodromes at the time requested additional appeal rights.

As the licence conditions include control of charges for the London approach service, the Government have decided that airport operators whose interests could be materially affected by the decision to modify a licence condition are likely to be airports receiving the London approach service from the licence holder, and that these aerodromes should be able to appeal these decisions on the grounds of fairness. The London approach service consists of the control and sequencing of flights between the licence holder’s en-route service, which will be quite high up, and which operationally include holding stacks, and the tower service at London airports, which is quite low down, and which is provided at each airport by an air navigation service provider under contract with the airport operator. Airports currently receiving the London approach service from NERL are Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton and London City, and these regulations enable those airports to appeal. These regulations have been drafted in such a way as to ensure that in the future, should another aerodrome become part of the London approach service from NERL under its licence, it too will be able to appeal modifications to licence conditions.

This instrument will ensure that the aerodromes likely to be materially affected by a decision to modify a licence condition can appeal those decisions. It is as simple as that. I beg to move.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the Explanatory Memorandum and the information she just gave us. There are two areas highlighted by the Explanatory Memorandum that are hugely important, which are the failures with computer systems and with NERL. But I want to raise another, which I hope has been fully rectified now. I was the rapporteur in the European Parliament in 2015 on the safe use of civil RPASs or drones, so I will reflect on what happened a couple of years ago, because this is a growing industry and we need to make sure we keep our eye on the ball.

As I recollect, between 19 and 21 December 2018, there were drone sightings at Gatwick. Regrettably, 140,000 passengers and 1,000 flights were affected. This was the biggest closure since the 2010 volcanic eruption in Iceland and, I have to say, the way it was handled became quite farcical. The airport spokesman said they could not do much about it, because there was no counter-drone technology when, actually, there was, albeit it was not at Gatwick then. It also ended with two people being arrested and, fortunately, released and paid compensation. It was not exactly a good look for the UK.

In addition, we must also realise the challenge of geo-fencing in the civil drones sector. This is particularly difficult for airfields, due to their geographical size. For example, Gatwick or Heathrow—a large airport—covers several square miles, but just in their infrastructure and to their boundaries or the end of the runways. That does not include the miles of airspace above, where an aircraft can be at risk either on ascent or descent. We know this is a huge challenge.

Nevertheless, the cost of the investigation was £800,000 and it had to include the police, military and the RAF in particular. The good news that followed was that Gatwick and others installed counter-drone technology in 2019, which is now available across all the appropriate airports in the United Kingdom.

We have a world-class civil aviation industry and reputation, which I am sure all noble Lords agree we must maintain. I ask my noble friend to give me the reassurance that the CAA, which is an excellent regulatory body, will continue to have clear and detailed oversight of this area to maintain our high standards, certainly in this growing industry.

The final point I raise, which will be covered by two other noble Lords so I will not cover it in too much detail, is regarding EGNOS. I was again a rapporteur in the European Parliament on GNSS, so I have a serious interest in the systems we require to make sure our airfields are well-equipped. Since, by all accounts, EGNOS was stopped last year, a number of our peripheral, small airports have been put in huge difficulty. We have flights either being cancelled or their safety jeopardised, for both passengers and crew. They are hugely reliant on life-saving services coming in, whether to take people to the hospitals on the mainland or for other reasons.

I will finalise on those points, because I think my noble friend is aware of them and has passed them on. We look forward to meeting with the appropriate Minister at some stage, and I thank her very much for taking these points on board.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2021

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

I just want to raise a question with my noble friend, and it has been outlined. While I generally support the push for bio and alternative fuels, I cannot do so at any price given the whole food for fuel argument, particularly when food is needed to sustain populations. While it is quite easy for us in the United Kingdom, and probably those in some other countries, to look at how the programme is working and what we are doing, the same cannot be said for some third countries. For example, in Brazil and some other countries in the great continents of the world, we see great destruction of wildlife, fauna and flora. Can my noble friend explain the measures that our Government are taking to police this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their interventions and contributions to this debate.

I start by addressing the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about the 21-day rule. There is an explanation in the Explanatory Memorandum —which I probably will not read out now, because it is written there—for why we felt it was right to not abide by this rule, but I will say that I am less than happy about it. I think I will make a new year’s resolution to have an SI debate in your Lordships’ House or Grand Committee without somebody pointing to a mistake in a document or the fact that we have not been able to comply with a rule when, quite frankly, we really should have been able to do so.

Noble Lords have gone a little beyond the SI into the Government’s broader policy on transport decarbonisation. I will write with a fuller answer on that, because there is a lot happening at the moment and it goes far beyond what is in front of your Lordships today.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, as ever, raised a very important point about the consultation and the responses from various people. As is always the case with a consultation, certain people will respond. We had 120 responses and the majority of those agreed with our proposals, including trade associations and fuel suppliers, which was great. But the Government have another responsibility: to make sure that it is fair on the general public—the people who have to buy the fuels. There was always going to be a balance between the cost that will potentially be added to the fuel at the pump versus how ambitious we would like to be. If the public had the deepest of pockets, we could be far more ambitious, but we always have to think about the cost.

I note the noble Lord’s suggestions, such as banning the sale of a second-hand internal combustion engine vehicle, but I think that would be really harsh on somebody for whom it may be the biggest asset they own in the world. I would find it very difficult to do that without an enormous amount of fair warning. We do accept that there is never a good time to add cost to fuel consumers’ bills, and this policy is expected to marginally increase fuel costs—but we believe that those costs are, on balance, manageable. We are looking at something like 0.5p per litre in 2022, rising to 1.6p per litre in 2032, which is a little over 1% of current petrol and diesel prices. But it is not nothing—it is not insignificant—so we do always have to think about the balance with these things.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about the exceptions in the rollout of E10. Those were the days—those heady days when we were upstairs in the committee room talking about E10 implementation. I cannot remember whether those exceptions are permanent or temporary; I will certainly write on that, as I will on whether the increase of the buyout price to 50p has been successful. We will be able to look at that.

If I may, I will talk very briefly about sustainability, because it is absolutely critical that we do not ride a coach and horses through very good-quality agricultural land to produce these fuels. All biofuels supported under the RTFO need to comply with strict sustainability criteria. My noble friend has pointed out some of the challenges with certain countries in the world. There are protections for biodiversity and against land use changes such as deforestation. These regulations have improved the sustainability criteria, and I am very happy to write to the noble Baroness, and, indeed, to other noble Lords who contributed, to set out exactly where the changes have been made and the benefits that we expect to get from them.

I appreciate that there are a few unanswered questions, but I will be writing. I think we have reached the right balance by increasing by 5%; it will make a difference to our carbon emissions. We accept that there is more to be done in transport, but we are on that case and are doing as much as we can as quickly as we can.

HGV Drivers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think that the noble Lord has just pointed out the complex and convoluted nature of the solutions to this problem, which is indeed long-standing. I say again that we are working closely with the industry on this. Of course it is not just the haulage industry that has skin in this game; it is also the people who provide services to the haulage industry. The noble Lord will be pleased to hear that I am working with National Highways to figure out what we can do to improve services at motorway service areas and to see whether we can develop some more.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, the information recently disclosed is that there was a backlog of some 56,000 HGV licences that were being delayed in the process, as well as delays in driver training, by the DVSA. This caused an outrage and, in addition, the threat of industrial action. Will the Minister please tell us what steps the Government have taken to address these issues?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that I have had several conversations with the DVLA on this matter. I assure her that currently there is no backlog at all for provisional vocational licences; these are being processed within the normal turnaround time. As of Monday, there were 27,000 applications for vocational driving licences awaiting processing. However, the holders of the vast majority of those, which are renewals, will of course still be able to drive under Section 88 provisions.

On the strike at the DVLA, it was and remains extremely unwelcome and unjustified. The PCS has repeatedly claimed that increasing the backlog is a success. I do not agree; that is not a success. It is impacting our supply chains and those people who need to use their cars to travel. However, I also point out that the vast majority of DVLA staff are not striking, and I welcome the work that they do.

Lorry Drivers

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Wednesday 7th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The industry needs to do an awful lot more to recruit, train and retain its staff, and perhaps I will be able to get into that a little later, but on foreign labour, the UK labour market has changed dramatically due to the pandemic. Many UK workers face an uncertain future. There will be employment opportunities within the professional driving sector, and I hope that they will apply for them.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, lorry drivers have been the hidden heroes of this pandemic and they deserve our full support. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that such jobs require good skills, training and investment, and are equally important to driving our economy forward as any university degree?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree that they have been some of the heroes during the pandemic, and ensure that I frequently tell them so. I think they have done a fantastic job, but it is time for the industry to step up just a little more. On 1 August last year, we suspended the HGV levy. This has saved the industry hundreds of millions of pounds. For each truck, it costs about £900 a year, so if you are a haulier with 3,000 trucks, you save £2.5 million. That could train 800 new drivers. I ask the industry to recruit those people and train them.

International Travel

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Thursday 1st July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, we know that the Prime Minister and President Biden are very keen to return to safe transatlantic travel as soon as possible. The UK-US experts working group is up and running, and it is looking through all the technology and protocols that would need to be in place. However, the US is slightly different to the UK, and it has 50 different states with 50 different systems that register whether someone has been vaccinated or not, so there is a little work to be done. Obviously, I cannot give the noble Lord a timeline, but we are very keen to reopen our borders to the US, and we will do so when it is safe.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, you can transit through Italy, remain for 36 hours and not quarantine—but, sadly, not if you are an England fan. From abroad, you can come here, stay longer and not quarantine if you are a politician, VIP, official or sponsor. This confirms that, whatever the variant, the vaccines work. Can my noble friend inform the Department of Health that, until this incessant scaremongering stops, our airline and tourism sectors will continue to haemorrhage jobs and will never recover?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have set out previously—I agree with my noble friend—the travel industry is having a very difficult time, but we can see a light at the end of the tunnel. We have to make sure that we act with public health as our priority. We must have a cautious approach, because we cannot risk everything that we have been able to do with the vaccine programme by importing variants of concern from overseas.

BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds

Debate between Baroness Vere of Norbiton and Baroness Foster of Oxton

Tuesday 15th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think we can all agree that the travel industry has been fundamentally changed by the Covid pandemic. There is no doubt that travelling now is very different from what it was a year ago. We are encouraging all consumers to be as flexible as possible. They must read the terms and conditions because in certain circumstances, guidance from the Government may change and a refund may not be due. However, as I said previously, if something is cancelled, a refund should be given.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, the aviation sector has spent the past year trying to second-guess government policy, with route cancellations being announced at the drop of a hat causing mayhem, as outlined by my right honourable friend Theresa May last week. As a key architect of Regulation 261/2004 on passenger rights, I would normally take a hard line, but not today. Will my noble friend remind those in BEIS and the DfT that force majeure includes a pandemic, and that perhaps the Competition and Markets Authority might better focus its attention on reminding Ministers and civil servants of their responsibilities across departments before resorting to possible legal action?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As noble Lords will know, the Government are not taking this legal action themselves. The CMA is a non-ministerial department. It believes it has found some evidence that businesses are failing to comply with the law and it is taking reasonable steps to take appropriate enforcement action. It could be that this does not go to court and that the CMA reaches an appropriate agreement with British Airways and Ryanair, if there has been any wrongdoing. But I agree with my noble friend that we have to do everything that we can to get the travel industry back on its feet. That is our focus: we want British consumers to be able to travel once again and with certainty.