Pensions Bill

Baroness Turner of Camden Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

22: Clause 5, page 3, line 18, at end insert “plus the state pension benefits from an employee’s post-commencement qualifying years up to a maximum of nine years”

[Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a rather complicated matter. We are on to the area of people who are contracted in and those who are contracted out. Under the Government’s proposal, an employee who by April 2016 has already built up a state pension entitlement equal to or in excess of the single state pension cannot add further to it. This means that a large number of long-term contracted-in employees will face the prospect of a reduced state pension. These employees, by definition, have not had access to quality company DB pensions during their career, and SERPS and the second-tier pension were originally designed to assist them. By contrast, an employee who has been long-term contracted-out will have an established right to the basic state pension only. Under the transitional terms, they would have the ability to add to their single pension benefit and could increase it from the prospective £107 of the basic state pension level to £144 in approximately nine years.

The amendment is designed to be helpful. We realise, of course, that the transition may be difficult. Some people may feel that they are losing out as a result, and we want to ensure that as few as possible feel that way. The idea of the amendment is to limit the loss of future rights to accrue for the contracted-in employees and to put them on an equal footing with contracted-out employees. Under the new scheme, both groups will in future be paying the same amount of national insurance contribution. The idea of the amendment was therefore to ensure that the transition that is taking place will be as smooth as possible, and that people who think that they have been left out or that their conditions are undermined will feel that every effort is being made by the Government—if they accept our amendment or something rather similar—to make the transition as painless as possible. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I thank the Minister for his detailed response to the amendment. It was of course designed to cover the situation where a number of people may feel that they are being badly done by in the transitional process. That is why it was suggested that an amendment be put down and the Government’s views on it sought. I am grateful for what he has said. I acknowledge, of course, that there will be some cost involved—I realise that we mostly put down amendments that involve some cost. None the less, we were anxious to try to ensure that people should not feel hard done by if they feel that they are losing out in any respect. However, I note what he has said. We shall have a good look at this issue before Report and I shall let the people who originally raised it with me know what the response was. In the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 22 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

25: Schedule 1, page 28, line 33, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert—
“( ) The amount to be revalued in accordance with the full rate of the state pension.”

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

This, again, concerns a somewhat difficult point. Currently, paragraph 6(2) of Schedule 1 provides that amounts of pre-commencement pension up to the level of the full single pension will increase in line with “the full rate” of the single state pension, while any amount in excess of that will rise only in line with CPI inflation. In other words, the rate of revaluation is on the basis of prices rather than, as in the past, in relation to earnings. This takes us into the whole area of revaluation. We have already heard that, apparently, government policy is in future going to support the triple lock, which I personally have always supported. If the triple lock were accepted, and if our amendment were accepted, that would certainly bring the whole thing into line with the triple lock, because it would increase this section of the pension in line with earnings.

I am rather surprised that the Government continue to imagine that it is possible, in this particular section of the Bill, to have revaluation in line not with earnings, or indeed with the triple lock at all, but in line with prices. That is completely out of kilter with what will, hopefully, be in the rest of the Bill and with support for the triple lock. I therefore suggest that the Minister look again at the amendment and perhaps agree with what we are suggesting: that the amount to be revalued should be in accordance with the full rate of the state pension, which would of course bring you directly into the earnings section rather than looking at prices again. I do not think that we want to look at prices again in relation to any section of the Bill. If we are going to have the triple lock, which I hope we shall, that would of course not arise because the best of three would be payable in respect of all the pension payments referred to in the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I fully support what my noble friend has just said and have some amendments in this group which point in the same direction. The issue is fairness in relation to expectations. Under this part of the schedule, if your entitlement under the prior system is greater than the reference point, it is index-linked on a different basis from that on which it would be if it falls below the reference point.

The Minister may regard that as part of the overall approach, but in terms of the expectations of the people concerned there is in essence the same point as was in my noble friend’s previous amendment: somebody who is retiring in 15 years’ time may be able to provide other means of savings to make up for the loss of expectation. However, if they are retiring fairly close to the due date of the single tier, then their expectations cannot be made up in that time. A significant degree of unfairness applies there. The same applies in relation to the subject matter of these amendments if you happen to be one side or another, under the old system, of the proposed reference figure of £144 or whatever it turns out to be. There is no particular reason why one group of workers—who have, by and large, not had the most favourable pension schemes but have saved into the state second pension—should be treated differentially in this way, compared with their expectation.

It is an issue of fairness. The triple lock seems to have all-round support except in these clauses. It seems that the Government, at a relatively small cost, could make the adjustment here and save quite a lot of aggro and, I suspect, a significant postbag for most Members of Parliament.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it was not my intention that the noble Lord should be worried about it. I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I thank the Minister for that response but he will not be surprised to learn that I am not terribly happy with it because I cannot envisage a situation in which any element of pension provision could be linked to prices rather than anything else, and rather than the triple lock which we have all talked about. Therefore, although I thank the Minister for his detailed response, we will have to look at it very carefully because I am not happy about any element of pension provision where there is revaluation based on prices. It is out of kilter with the rest of the thinking in relation to pensions generally and we will certainly have to think about this and come back to it on Report. However, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 25 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

37: Clause 24, page 11, line 34, leave out subsections (2) to (5)

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, Subsections (2) to (5) of Clause 24 and Schedule 14 give employers powers to amend employee contributions and benefits in their occupational schemes to an extent supposed to be limited to the cost of the extra national insurance the employer will have to pay as a result of the end of contracting out. I am totally opposed to this clause and also to Schedule 14. The proposal potentially impacts on 1.6 million active members of private sector DB schemes. It would enable any existing protection for members’ benefits in legislation or scheme rules to be overridden. This includes specific statutory protection given to members in former nationalised industries when they were privatised and also measures of protection that employers in times past have agreed to write into their schemes.

The ending of contracting out and the associated increase in employer national insurance is, in principle, no different from any other risk employers with DB schemes might face and there is no sound justification for the Government to disturb the existing balance of power in relation to these schemes. The extra cost on employers is no greater than as might arise in the event of a small change in market interest rates. There was no suggestion of intervention to protect scheme members who lost out when the Government, not so long ago, amended the statutory basis of the pension increase from RPI to CPI. A number of us objected at the time. Governments should allow the problems arising for employers on this count to be dealt with through the established process whereby changes can be effected by negotiation and agreement. An overriding power based on being able to recover a set amount of cost could result in great unfairness as there may be no correspondence between the variable amounts members may gain from a single state pension and those they may lose if employers are allowed to determine unilaterally the form of contribution and benefit changes in occupational schemes.

I also recall, during my career as a trade union official a number of years ago, how keen we were to negotiate what we then called final salary schemes— DB schemes. As a result of the schemes that we negotiated then, there have been beneficial changes for many pensioners. As we know, though, after a certain number of years there was a bit of a campaign against DB schemes, as a result of which a number of employers decided that they would scale down their DB schemes. I have sensed that there remains not a hostility but a lack of concern and support on the part of the Government for DB schemes. These schemes excellently provided for generations of pensioners, who are very grateful for the fact that they are in existence.

What is proposed here is not in any way acceptable. I very much hope that the Government will take it away and rethink it. I am not the only person to feel this; the Minister will notice that there are a number of other amendments in this group, including my own Amendment 40, which are designed to protect employees who were covered by existing protections when they belonged to former nationalised industries that were denationalised. As a result of that, there was legislation that provided for protection. In fact, the protected persons were first introduced by an Act of Parliament in 1948 and reaffirmed by the Thatcher Government on the denationalisation of the electricity supply industry in 1990.

The Government now propose, in my view, to override the statutory provisions providing these pensions, in order to allow employers to claw back the additional NI contributions. This really is the thin end of the wedge and I do not think we should accept it. The Government should take it away and rethink it, because I regard it as quite unacceptable and so do many people, including individuals who are themselves beneficiaries of DB schemes and the unions that support them. I beg to move.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I have amendments in this group that broadly support the line that my noble friend has been taking. She was right to try to prise open what the Government’s strategy actually is.

Everyone recognises that there are consequences of contracting out, but under this clause and schedule the Government are effectively giving carte blanche to employers to change established means of paying occupational pensions among private sector employees. Government Amendments 48 and 49 actually make that worse by making it pretty explicit that the full cost of that will, or at least can, fall on the employees so that not only are the employers given the right not only to avoid the consequences of that cost and place it on to the employees, which is likely to have the knock-on effect of people opting out of the schemes, but they are overriding the long-established system whereby such schemes are governed by trustees representing the employers, the contributing members and often the pensioners in those schemes. To override the whole system of pension trustees that we have had in place for the past 40 or so years with regard to private occupational pensions is a very serious step. There are particular consequences in the area where statutory protections are built in. Past Governments have given guarantees that can be overridden by this clause.

All this can lead us only to the conclusion that the Government have a strategy and are using the excuse of the other provisions of the Bill on state pensions to go further in destroying private occupational schemes. We discussed the knock-on effect in public sector schemes at our previous sitting but here we have, as my noble friend says, more than 1.5 million people still in defined benefit schemes who have benefited from them and have every expectation of continuing to benefit from them. On top of everything else, the Government are attempting to ensure that those schemes now fail.

There are other reasons why some schemes have been curtailed and there are other reasons why the future of such schemes, in some cases, looks fragile. However, this is a deliberate attempt by the Government to make matters significantly worse. The Government must think very seriously about that. This is why my amendments and those of my noble friend would delete the bulk of Clause 24 and Schedule 14. We recognise that we have to face up to the consequence of that, but it would force the Government to rethink this and do it in the context of an overall strategy towards occupational pensions, their governance and their future, which is not there at the moment.

This clause provides the possibility of the Government reassuring us that they have a strategy but, frankly, we need to see the outlines of that strategy before we finish the proceedings on this Bill. Otherwise, I think that the message to those outside will be that, if you are in an occupational pension scheme in the private sector, we will make it cost you more and the benefits will be less and, if you are in the public sector, the Government will not compensate for the costs that they are imposing on well funded public sector schemes, as we discussed last time.

There is an occupational pension dimension to the whole pension issue. In principle we support many of the changes that the Government intend to make to the state pension, but the other part of the equation also needs to be faced up to. Frankly, I have seen no sign of a government strategy to do that. These clauses and much of this schedule will only make matters very significantly worse.

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[Lord Freud]

Well, my Lords, I was responding to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, on the negative procedure generally. It is fairly odd to have two separate procedures going on within one process. That is the point.

I will try to deal with government Amendments 48 and 49. Schedule 14 currently provides that regulations can create exceptions to the limits set out in paragraph 2(2). This was originally provided to deal with unusually funded schemes, such as fixed cost-share schemes, which I hope goes to the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee raised concerns about the power. In light of this and our ongoing discussions with the pensions industry, we no longer believe that we need this power—we believe that something different is required—so Amendment 49 removes it. Amendment 48 then makes specific provision for employers with atypical scheme-funding arrangements, such as cost-share schemes. It allows those employers to recover their increased costs without affecting the safeguards provided by Schedule 14.

In the statutory override we have designed a process whereby employers can continue to sponsor defined-benefit schemes without losing the rebate. We have included provision to allow for a pivotal role for actuaries in signing off any changes but we have not restricted the ability of trustees, and indeed members, to express their views to the employer. We have ensured that trustees are not forced to decide whether to accept scheme changes or risk closure of the scheme. I hope that this reassures noble Lords and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate. I agree, of course, that it is a complicated matter but, on the other hand, the complications take place within the context of what is in the Bill. The Bill makes it clear that in future employers will have the right to change the provisions of pension contributions and benefits. That is what most of us are concerned about. I do not think that the Minister’s response has dealt with the fear that people have that they are now facing a possibility that DB schemes could be under attack. They have been under attack in the past. Although I agree with everything that has been said about the necessity of involving trustees—of course I believe in that—when in the past employers have changed from a DB scheme to something less good, which has happened, the trustees have been consulted but have made no attempt to disrupt what the employer had intended to do. I therefore still do not think it is sufficient to say that the trustees have to be consulted. There has to be general consultation. The problem is, of course, that it is in the general context of the Bill, and the general context of this clause, which gives the employer power to change the benefits system through the DB scheme that may exist.

People are concerned about the continuation of their DB schemes. As I have said in the past, DB schemes which have been negotiated in the past have been responsible for improving benefits for a whole generation of pensioners. They want to continue with those schemes and to ensure that the unions to which most of them belong will have the right to ensure that negotiation will properly take place before anything can be done to remove those benefits that they all value so highly from them.

In those circumstances, while I have listened very carefully to what has been said, particularly to what the Minister has been saying this afternoon, I will look again at what he said. However, concerns still exist about Schedule 14 and the wording of this clause, and we shall certainly return to it on Report. Personally, I have not been satisfied with what I have heard and am quite certain that a number of other people will not be either. There has to be much more of a debate. Unfortunately, a number of our Members have left because we are running rather late tonight. A number of people who have tabled amendments have not had the opportunity to speak to them and so on. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 37 withdrawn.