Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. I say to the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Eden, that the amendments that were tabled in the other place and those that have been tabled here have been accepted as being within the scope of the Bill, so we are perfectly entitled to discuss them as being legitimate within this piece of legislation.

We on these Benches support Amendments 19A, 22A and 27A. I am a humanist. I am not a lapsed one, though I have veered between being a member of the National Secular Society and a member of the British Humanist Association all my life.

I also need to declare an interest in that one of my sisters is a British Humanist Association-accredited celebrant. One of the things that I would like to say to the right reverend Prelate, who has made very generous remarks during this debate, is that the ceremonies that my sister conducts are in every way as professional, carefully constructed, personal and beautiful as any other funeral, marriage or naming celebration that you could wish for. The standard of training and accreditation that the BHA undertakes is exceptional, and it has a commitment to ensuring that, were this to become part of our legislative framework for marriage, its celebrants would of course match the very best of the registrars. So that is not an issue here. I am very proud of my sister and her calling, and I think she has every right to conduct marriage ceremonies.

If either of my children wanted to be married at a humanist wedding service, at the moment they would have to go to Scotland, Australia, the United States, Sweden or, more recently, Ireland. In England and Wales they would have to have a civic ceremony and then a ceremony organised by a humanist celebrant with all the spirituality and commitment that they will have chosen to have in that ceremony. Their choice is restricted by—I have to say this although it might seem a slightly odd expression coming from this side of the House—the closed shop that we find in the old-fashioned rules on marriage in this country, to say nothing of the fact that they would have to pay twice for the pleasure of getting married.

This is an issue that the Government should embrace. The Red Tape Challenge, a commitment to competition and, indeed, the Minister’s commitment to equality should lead one to the view that this is an area where there is injustice and unfairness and it needs a remedy. I hope that she will accept the principle behind the amendment or, even better, accept the amendment itself, or that the Government will come forward with an amendment at a later stage that will achieve the objective of remedying this injustice. Bearing in mind, as noble Lords have already said, that it is 19 years since the previous marriage Bill, one cannot blame the humanists for thinking it reasonable not to have to wait another 19 years before this anachronism is addressed. Indeed, legal recognition for humanist marriages was given in Scotland in 2005.

Given that legal recognition for humanist marriages is the party policy of the Liberal Democrats, is supported by the Labour Party on this side of the House and by our shadow Cabinet, and was supported in the Commons by MPs on all sides, the amendment to recognise humanist weddings as legal marriages was one of the first to be tabled when the Bill received its Second Reading in the Commons. In Committee, the amendment to give legal recognition to marriages conducted by humanists and religious charities, meeting certain conditions, was introduced but fell after a 7-7 tie on the voting Committee, which was resolved against by the casting vote of the chairman—as it would be, and I accept that those are the rules. However, that shows that there is significant support for this issue.

The redrafted amendment on Report addressed all the concerns raised in Committee as well as further concerns raised afterwards by government officials, and was debated. Again there was strong support from all sides, but the amendment was withdrawn after the Attorney-General and the Secretary of State stated that the measure would not be compatible with the Human Rights Act and that passing the amendment could lead to a declaration from the Government to that effect. The Government published their legal arguments as to why that was so and specifically asked that the legal arguments should represent the comprehensive statement of the Government’s concerns.

The British Humanist Association has taken all of this on board and the amendment before us now addresses all the matters raised in the Government’s document. Written advice from Professor Aileen McColgan of Matrix Chambers has confirmed that the revised amendment addresses all the points of law that were raised in objection to the Government. I will not go through all the proposals now because I think that the House fully understands the issues.

It is time to stop giving reasons for not allowing humanist weddings and to give reasons why they should happen and to give proposals on how we can find a way through this. I finish with a quote from something circulated in the evidence that the British Humanist Association gave.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I wonder if the noble Baroness can explain the position on Long Titles, because it may well be that her party will form part or the whole of a future Government. On the question of Long Titles, I realise that the pass was sold in the other place, and that therefore it is quite okay for us to debate this. However, in terms of House of Lords procedure, how can the matter possibly be within this Long Title? Is not the better point that there should be a Private Member’s Bill, with government support, that deals with this as a discrete issue and that can get through speedily?

[Baroness Thornton]

The point that I was making at the outset of my remarks—the noble Lord is an expert at getting legislation through this House—is that if it has been accepted by the clerks at both ends of this building, in the Commons and in the Lords, then it is within the scope of the Bill. We can have discussions about Long Titles and their meanings, and indeed we occasionally do, but it seems to me that this is fairly straightforward. It is accepted by the clerks in the Commons and in the Lords. It is therefore before us and is a legitimate thing for us to discuss.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I was the one who above all raised the issue of the Paris principles in relation to the setting up of the commission in the 2006 Act and beyond. I have sat on the JCHR ever since. I have no doubt that it is not the function of the UN Paris principles procedure to prescribe precisely to each member state the nature of each relationship in order to satisfy the requirements of the principles. I suggest that the commission would not be treated in the same way as other public authorities, because it would have a continuous role through its chair and, if necessary, otherwise with a standing committee of both Houses that was expert in human rights and had an oversight function, in addition to its relationship with Whitehall. I would be amazed—although I will ask; we will see whether I am right or wrong—if the JCHR, having considered this, came back and said that it thought that that relationship was inadequate to satisfy the Paris principles. I would say that this is premature at the moment, but perhaps the right thing to do is to put it on the agenda of the Joint Committee on Human Rights next week.

[Baroness Thornton]

I thank the Minister and my supporters, the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Deben. I think that we have made some progress with this discussion, which is what we intended to do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, gave us a very useful description of the practicalities and symptoms of the dysfunctionality in the relationship between the Government Equalities Office and the EHRC, and of the way in which it has impacted on the commission’s work and on its ability to do its job properly. It seems likely that the Government Equalities Office and the EHRC share the same budget source. That would be quite wrong, because they are probably fighting for the same resources. I ask that as a question that does not need to be answered now but which is pertinent.

It possibly answers the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, which I completely accept: that the reason that there were serious management problems was because the two organisations share the same budget line. Despite the assurances put into the 2006 legislation—the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was quite right about them—the relationship simply has not worked in some respects. That has been very important and a source of genuine regret. The discussion is about how we make these things work better and how we make sure that accountability works better.

I hope that the Joint Committee on Human Rights will have this discussion before the next stage of the Bill, because that will help us. If we need to discuss this at the next stage of the Bill, I hope that the discussion will be about what will happen in future and that we will get the discussion on the record.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me to come back to her in writing on the question of budgets. There was one point on which I was not as clear as I ought to have been. I was reminded of something that my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece said. I said repeatedly that the commission had “A” status under the current arrangements. As has been made evident in the debate, clearly there were problems in the past in the way in which the commission related to the Government Equalities Office. The relationship did not work as well as it needed to. However, what I sought to say on behalf of the Government was that the relationship had improved and continues to improve. We are in danger of shooting ourselves in the foot. We have “A” status under the current arrangements. We are improving what is wrong. We will continue to improve and put things right, so let us not put ourselves in a situation where we improve everything and then the ICC turns around and says, “We will remove your ‘A’ status because you keep telling us that the arrangements do not work”, when we have been able to show that recently they have started to improve and that we know how to improve them further—which is what we will do.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

Perhaps I may add that the independence requirements that we wrote in were used by some at staff level on the commission to justify not being properly financially accountable. I was blamed by officials for having introduced the independence requirements on the ground that there was not proper accountability. Therefore, those at the UN who are considering the Paris principles will also consider that independence does not mean a lack of proper accountability. I make that point because that is something for which we all wish—I refer to financial accountability for the way that money is spent.

[Baroness Thornton]

I was not making that point at all but I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. The remarks of the Minister were helpful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Wednesday 14th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I am very pleased to participate in this Second Reading debate and to be part of my noble friend’s Bill team. We will try to do something useful with what is a pretty terrible Bill. Having worked on the Public Bodies Bill and the health Bill, there is quite a lot of competition for that prize with this Government. As other noble Lords said, the Bill is incoherent. It provides no compelling vision, no consistent message and no connected approach across government to drive growth. That is a shame.

I will concentrate on Clauses 56, 57 and 58, which are no less than a systematic undermining of the UK’s entire equalities infrastructure for what appears to be no reason other than dogma and political spite, which I hope at least the junior partners in the coalition will not support. The clauses relating to the Equality and Human Rights Commission—as even Vince Cable admitted—have no significant impact on business growth. The Government’s own impact assessment states that either they will have a negative impact or they will add nothing to the main purpose of the Bill. So why are they here? There is no tangible, quantifiable, empirical evidence linking the measures put forward in Clauses 56, 57 and 58 to business growth.

Clause 56 covers changes to the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s statutory powers and duties. I beg to differ from what I thought was the rather complacent view of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, about the dangers that face this body. The Bill seeks to amend Part 1 of the Equality Act 2006, which sets out the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s statutory powers and duties. It repeals Section 3, which sets out the general duty of the commission. It repeals Section 10, which imposes a duty on the commission to promote good relations between members of different groups. It repeals Section 19, which gives the commission powers in association with Section 10. It repeals Section 27, which enables the commission to make arrangements for the provision of conciliation in certain non-employment related disputes, and it amends Section 12, which requires the commission to monitor and report every three years on its progress. It reduces from three to five years the frequency with which the commission is required to publish a report on its progress.

These legislative changes should not be considered in isolation. In addition to the proposal to amend the legislative basis of the EHRC, the Government are undertaking a range of actions that seriously threaten the commission’s independence and effectiveness. By 2014-15, the EHRC will have had its budget cut by 62%. It will have lost 72% of its staff compared to when it was established in 2007. These are disproportionate cuts. They will make the EHRC about the same size as the former Disability Rights Commission—just one of the three equality commissions that it replaced.

In addition, the new framework document between the EHRC and the Home Office pays little heed to Part 4 of the Equality Act 2006, which states:

“The Minister shall have regard to the desirability of ensuring that the Commission is under as few constraints as reasonably possible in determining … its activities … its timetables, and … its priorities”.

This has drawn concern from the chair of the ICC, who stated that the new framework document significantly limits the EHRC’s freedom,

“to determine priorities without undue influence by the Government”.

The EHRC works to reduce inequality, eliminate discrimination and strengthen good relations between people. Undertaking these functions effectively requires proper funding of the EHRC, and the retention of its full legal remit and independence. I do not say that the EHRC needs to be funded—in case the Minister is under any illusions—as it currently is. Of course it has to play its part, as do all other government departments. However, the figures that I cited—

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

As the noble Baroness accused me of complacency, perhaps I could ask her to confirm that nothing in these changes will affect the guarantees of independence that together we wrote into the 2006 Act—some of which she referred to—nor the functions on enforcement that I quoted in my speech. The changes deal only with aspirational matters.

[Baroness Thornton]

I think that the noble Lord is quite wrong, and I will go on to say why. According to the Paris principles, a national human rights institute needs to enjoy financial autonomy that will enable it to determine its priorities and activities. General observation 2.6 on adequate funding, issued by the sub-committee on accreditation of the International Coordinating Committee of National Human Rights Institutions, states:

“Financial systems should be such that the NHRI has complete financial autonomy. This should be a separate budget line over which it has absolute management and control”.

The actions of the Government are undermining the EHRC’s celebrated A status. Is their intention to preside over the downgrading of our national equalities and human rights body so that we can join Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan and the Congo, for example, with a B status, for whatever reasons those countries may have a B status—it could be that they do not have a body or that their body is not independent of their Government—instead of being part of the A status group, which includes most of the western world?

Section 3 of the Equality Act requires the EHRC to encourage and support a society based on freedom from prejudice and discrimination, individual human rights, respect for the dignity and worth of each individual, equal opportunity to participate in society and a mutual respect between groups based on understanding, valuing diversity and a shared respect for human rights. Section 3 provides a guiding vision for the EHRC that unifies equality and human rights, which we discussed in 2006. While it is recognised that improvements are needed in the governance and management of the EHRC, confusing that with changing its legislative-provided remit is unjustifiable. Time should be allowed for the newly-appointed chair to implement the changes she wishes to make before the purpose of the organisation is undermined.

Vince Cable admits that there is no business advantage to be gained from removing Section 3 and terms it simply a piece of “legislative tidying-up”. However, there is a significant risk that removing Section 3 will prove to be a substantial loss. Professor Sir Bob Hepple QC, who I know has been a partner in crime of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, over many years, says that it has the potential to leave the Equality Act rudderless. Can the Minister explain exactly what getting rid of this general duty will do to encourage enterprise and grow the economy, or even what part of this duty puts a bureaucratic burden on business?

As to Section 10 of the Equality Act, which covers the duty to promote good relations, I can only assume that someone got out of the wrong side of the bed in a bad temper to draft this legislation to repeal the EHRC’s duty to promote good relations between members of different groups. That duty has been used in the past to include guidance on tackling political extremism in local elections, the kick racism out of football campaign and work carried out to improve social cohesion following the riots and troubles in Northern Ireland cities in 2001. Without this duty, the EHRC will be concerned only with regulating the vertical relations between organisations and individuals, rather than being able to undertake initiatives aimed at and positively influencing wider public attitudes and improving relations between individuals and groups. We need to keep all of this duty in the original legislation. As I have said, this legislation poses a threat and may lead to the removal of our A-grade status, which is a very serious matter.

I believe that we are at one across the House—many of us are with the noble Lord, Lord Lester—on Clauses 57 and 58. The Government seek to repeal Section 40 of the Equality Act 2010, which makes an employer liable for the repeated harassment of its employees by third parties, including customers, clients and service users. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, eloquently and adequately explained what that means and gave a very good example. There are many more examples, which I am sure will emerge in Committee.

While it may be true that there has been only one case of third-party harassment ruled on by an employment tribunal, it is also true that only four years have passed since the commencement of the provision and repealing it now would surely be premature. The TUC asserts that the introduction of Section 40 in the Equality Act has already led to a step change among employers, with actions undertaken to make it clear to service users that the harassment of their staff would not be tolerated. However—this is something which, I hope, will appeal to the Minister—there may be hidden costs to business of not prioritising action against third- party harassment. Harassment can have a significant effect on the mental and physical health of a workforce and be a major cause of work-related stress affecting performance and absence levels. I would also like to ask the Minister if repealing this provision would leave the UK in breach of EU law—the equal treatment directive 2002/73/EC which refers to the duty of employers to take measures to combat all forms of sexual discrimination, in particular preventive measures against harassment and sexual harassment in the workforce. I should also say that in the Government’s red tape challenge, there was no publicly available evidence of concerns being raised about this issue. When the Government consulted on third-party harassment, of all those who were asked, the vast majority, 71%, said that they opposed the repeal.

I turn now to Clause 58. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, is quite right. Section 138 of the Equality Act 2010 means that a person who thinks that they may have been unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised can obtain information from the person, employer or service provider they think has acted unlawfully against them. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, was one of the authors of this legislation 40 years ago, so why the Government would want to remove it, I do not know. It is completely counterproductive. Some 80% of those who responded to this opposed the abolition of the questionnaire procedure, and there is no evidence to support the Government’s claim. In fact, case law makes it clear that businesses and other respondents find this to be a valuable way of dealing with issues before they reach the law or tribunals because they establish the facts and clarify the issues which are in contention. Indeed, the Government’s own impact assessment failed to provide any empirical support for removing this regulatory burden on businesses. I ask the Minister seriously to reconsider this part of the Bill as we proceed.

The Bill falls far short of the visionary legislation that the Government suggested. It is several Bills rolled into one, which is why a team of us will be dealing with those bits that form parts of our briefs. It has been labelled an enterprise Bill, but I do not think that that is the case. The Government are seeking to make fundamental changes not only to the employment rights of every person in this country, but to change the remit of the body charged with promoting a society free from discrimination. As a result of the changes proposed in Clauses 56, 57 and 58, this House should have very real concerns about the impact they will have on the most vulnerable in our society and, indeed, on our nation’s international credibility.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Lester of Herne Hill

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I am going to use Bradford as my example as I think that it illustrates very well what my noble friend Lord Boateng has just described. I am very proud of my city and love it very much, and I want to put that on the record. On two or three occasions today and on Monday I have spoken about the challenges and problems that Bradford faces in this respect, and I want to make that completely clear. I am grateful to the Leader’s office for making available to me information which amply illustrates the issue that my noble friend has just described. For Bradford, you could substitute Birmingham, Leicester or Tower Hamlets. This is a very serious problem.

On two or three occasions the Minister has repeated the mantra of what the Government intend to do and how they intend to push forward, saying that we cannot go forward with a register that is 10 years out of date and so on. However, that is not what any of us are proposing. I shall come to that in a moment, possibly suggesting a solution. I do not think that what the Minister says will do, as this is a very serious problem in some parts of our towns and cities. Because I do not think that reading out figures in your Lordships’ House is necessarily helpful, I shall write to the Minister setting out what the figures would be if the Government’s proposals in the Bill were superimposed on Bradford. Bradford currently has five MPs representing all the different major parties, so this is not a party-political point. If the proposals in the Bill are applied to Bradford, we will lose a Member of Parliament, which would be very serious. We will go down from five Members of Parliament for our city to four if the proposal goes ahead. It will be on a very inaccurate electoral roll because Bradford has a growing population. As I said, it is expected to grow by 27 per cent over the next 20 years, which is the fastest in the whole Yorkshire region.

A quarter of that growth will be among young people, and we have already discussed the problem of young people not being represented on the electoral roll. We know that the Electoral Commission says that the figure is more than 50 per cent, and Bradford has a young population. The highest birth rates will be in the inner city and central Keighley, so Bradford West and Bradford East are likely to see significant increases in both population size and electorate. The Bradford district has the third highest proportion of BME residents outside London. Research done by the Electoral Commission suggests that there are low levels of voter registration among the BME population, which has been described very adequately by my noble friend. About 31 per cent are not registered and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation found that south Asian adults—particularly Muslims—are less likely to be registered than other groups.

This is not a specifically Bradford problem but it illustrates that there is a serious problem. I have two questions for the Minister. First, the shadow Justice Secretary in another place, Sadiq Khan, called for a delay of one year and an intense voter registration programme to be undertaken. Why is that not possible? Will the Government consider coming back on Report with such a proposal? That would go a long way to satisfying many of these issues. It would need resources, of course. Secondly, did the Government seek advice from the EHRC about this matter and the fact that such communities will find themselves disfranchised? That is very serious in a city like Bradford. I want Bradford to be a healthy, thriving city, and an important way for that to happen is for its citizens to be registered to vote and to participate in civic life and all our elections. I hope that this legislation will help them to do that. That is what we are asking for.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I sympathise with the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Boateng. I live in Herne Hill, which is between Brixton, Peckham and Dulwich, and have done so for almost 40 years. I was the area organiser with the SDP when it was founded, so I have practical experience of the problem, which is a real one in any area where there are ethnic and religious minorities.

I think that the amendment is misconceived because it would place a block on the work of the Boundary Commission until the Secretary of State can certify,

“that particular action has been taken to maximise the proportion of black and minority ethnic British residents who are on the electoral register”.

One of the proud achievements of the previous Government, in which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, had a major role, was the enactment of the Equality Act 2010. That Act and the previous one empowered the Equality and Human Rights Commission to play a major public education role in promoting equality. The EHRC was given powerful, strategic roles in law enforcement and the power to deal with political parties that were too passive and which discriminated indirectly, as well as directly.

That body was set up and the Act gave power for positive action to be taken where there was underrepresentation—for example, of black voters—on the register. That should be the body—well funded and with those powers recently approved by Parliament—to deal with the matter. This should not clog up the work of the Boundary Commission. This work needs to go on right now; it needs to go on every year. If the Equality and Human Rights Commission does not do its job properly, it should be called to account by, among other people, Members of this House. It is not sensible to be holding up the work of the Boundary Commission for that to happen. That does not mean that I do not share the objectives; I simply disagree with the means.