Marriage of Same Sex Couples (Conversion of Civil Partnership) Regulations 2014

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con)]

My Lords, I too support these regulations. Perhaps I might just respond to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, by reminding him that there was only one party that actually included same-sex marriage in its manifesto. That was the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party was the only one to promise the original Act in its manifesto. Having said that, I too rejoice that this now has complete cross-party approval.

One of the issues that needs to be remembered is that in contrast to what happened in the other place, those in favour of the Bill as it then was—what is now the 2013 Act—always were a majority on the Conservative side in this House. For that we can take some credit, considering—as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said—the history of Clause 28, which happily has now been confined completely to history. This House has distinguished itself very much in this whole area.

I also make the point that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee looked at this question and asked itself why the original orders were withdrawn and new orders had to be introduced. The noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, has kept me well informed on this—not that I have a direct personal interest: noble Lords may remember that at Second Reading I declared to the House that my wife and I had celebrated our diamond wedding anniversary the year before the Bill was introduced. Nevertheless, I then spoke very much in favour of the Bill and was delighted when, in the end, it became law. However, the scrutiny committee asked itself why this had happened. The short answer was that the Government had not consulted properly on the draft orders. Paragraph 17 of its report said:

“While we note that there was extensive consultation in relation to the Act and general principles, it would appear that even a brief consultation on the proposed detail of these Regulations might have avoided the need to withdraw and re-lay these instruments and the uncertainty that will have caused those making arrangements for conversions soon after the planned 10 December implementation date”.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, and his colleagues are much to be congratulated on having spotted the limitations in the original order relating to where these marriages could be celebrated, and persuaded the Minister, Nick Boles, who is listed as the Equalities Minister for same-sex marriages—and I have no doubt my noble friend Lady Northover—to withdraw it. It is a pity that there was no proper consultation beforehand.

However, here we are: it is almost the last chapter of this legislation and I am delighted that it has now been introduced. I hope that the regulations will be approved by both Houses of Parliament so that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, can celebrate his marriage to his partner before Christmas.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, we all know that it is rare, as parliamentarians, to see through a piece of legislation which has the direct effect of making so many people so happy. We have all seen the joy of the couples who have been married since the Act came into effect in March. While I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, to her place and thank her for explaining the orders so comprehensively, I am sad that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, is not here to see these orders through, due to her very well deserved promotion. However, I place on record my thanks to her, and to her colleague the Minister, Mr Nick Boles, for the open and accessible way in which they conducted these proceedings. I also thank my noble friend Lord Collins for the eloquent and sometimes forceful way in which he supported the need to withdraw these orders as they were drafted in July, which—along with the threat of mobilisation to defeat the orders, if necessary, by my noble friend Lord Alli—I am convinced swung the decision to withdraw them, much to everyone’s relief.

My view at the time—which I expressed to the civil servants concerned—was that the original draft showed a lack of emotional intelligence about the way to proceed which had not been there during the rest of the passage of this Bill. It could well be that that was through lack of consultation.

We have, in passing these further measures, the privilege of creating more happiness for those who wish to convert from civil partnerships to marriage and, crucially, to celebrate this conversion in the way that they choose. I know of several couples who are waiting for confirmation that these orders have been enacted in time for them to celebrate their marriage conversion—some of them very close at hand.

For example, my friends John Nickson and Simon Rew had their civil partnership on the very first day in Westminster Register Office and will be married on 19 December this year. They have been together since the early 1980s, certainly for more than 30 years. Like many couples they have been anxious to get on with organising this very happy occasion, and we need to apologise to them and others for causing them worry about whether they would be able to proceed on the dates the Government promised at the beginning of the year. We also need to wish John and Simon, and indeed my noble friend Lord Collins and Rafe, a very happy day when they eventually convert.

On these benches we will not be raising issues to delay the passage of the orders before the House today. These new orders allow same-sex marriages to take place in any if the 6,729 premises licensed to conduct civil marriages and civil partnerships, in addition to registry offices.

We are satisfied with the consequential provisions detailed in these regulations and believe that the dual path offered to people—to have a sort of cheap-and-cheerful conversion or a celebration—is exactly the right way to go. We are also pleased that couples will be able to have their civil partnerships converted on religious premises, where those premises have been approved to marry same-sex couples. This is an important issue of religious freedom and one that respects the protections for religious organisations enshrined within the Act. I was also pleased that the marriage certificate will look very similar to the marriage certificate I received 40 years ago. Such things are important.

My noble friend mentioned that the Stonewall brief mentions conversions in British consulates. Will the Minister assure the House that all consulates are properly briefed about how and when to conduct conversions? My second question relates to guidance and training for those whose job it is to administer these conversions, and making sure that the two options of how to convert are properly available.

I know that everyone is referring to these orders as the final chapter in the enactment of the same-sex marriage Act. Indeed, they are the final issue to be resolved for same-sex marriages. However, the Act was also amended in your Lordships’ House to include the new provision for legalising humanist weddings. I take this opportunity to ask the Minister about the progress in that direction. Indeed, the amendments to legalise humanist marriage had majority support in both Houses. The Government’s amendment allowed for a review and consultation on the matter and included order-making powers. The review and consultation are over and there have been more than 1,900 responses. They seem to show that this continues to be an issue with wide public support. Last year the British Humanist Association was assured that this process would be completed well before the end of the year, giving enough time to make orders in good time before the general election. This has not happened. When will the report emerge and when will we see the orders? I am very concerned that we get on with this.

In Scotland, where more than 10% of all marriages are now humanist marriages, the first ever same-sex marriage on 31 December will be a humanist marriage. The experience in Scotland has been nothing but positive. In fact, humanist marriages have accounted for 54% of the overall net increase in marriages. We are pleased to see the Government’s “family test” policy and the criteria by which all policies now have to be assessed; the legalisation of humanist marriage would perfectly fit those criteria and strengthen the institution of marriage—and no doubt lead to an increase in marriage, as it has in Scotland.

Given that the public consultation has closed and that the responses were, I gather, overwhelmingly favourable, can the Minister explain when the Government are publishing their report, and when the orders will be laid? I am worried because I hear rumours of heels being dragged at No.10 and that there may be some resistance at senior levels in the Church of England, which I hope both institutions will strenuously deny. There is a suggestion that humanist weddings should be limited only to places that are licensed for marriage, which kind of defeats the point of having a humanist wedding in the place of one’s choice. The reason that this is important is the same reason why the timetable for the orders under consideration today is so important to those who wish to convert their civil partnerships. People plan their weddings years in advance and I can inform the House that my sister, who is a humanist celebrant—I probably need to declare her as an interest—is already receiving inquiries about humanist weddings next summer and autumn. She, along with the hundreds of other humanist celebrants, has a dilemma over how to answer those questions. Perhaps the Minister can advise on that.

We welcome these orders and I congratulate the Government on bringing them forward in time for all the happy events to take place before Christmas.

Administration and Works Committee

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Thursday 10th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I have held a number of meetings in the Archbishops’ Room at Millbank House. You can get at least 30 or 40 people in there—I do not know the exact figure. It would certainly be big enough to contain any reasonable press conference. It is a very good room with a large table and a lot of chairs around it. You can have an extremely good meeting in that room.

[Baroness Thornton]

With tea?

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, before I move this amendment I should declare my interest as a joint president of London Councils and, like a large number of other noble Lords in all parts of the House, as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. There were lengthy debates in Grand Committee about the question of 50% of the amount of business rates being retained by local authorities. I therefore really make no apology for coming back to this issue. There have been references already, in the debates on earlier amendments, to the Government having made it clear that there will be no reset until 2020 and that therefore the main structure of the system will remain as it is.

First, I can deal very briefly with Amendment 10 because I want to direct most of my speech to the two other amendments in my name in this group, Amendments 13 and 14. When a similar amendment to Amendment 10 was tabled in Grand Committee, my noble friend explained that it was the Government’s intention to retain, as I have just said, the first reset date as 2020. That means seven years without a change. It is worth reading what she said on that occasion:

“That will give local authorities much greater long-term certainty about their financial obligations to central government and the funding that they can expect to receive from government than under the current three-year spending … process”.—[Official Report, 3/7/12; col. GC 327.]

At first sight, that sounds like an attractive proposition, but the fact of the matter, as has already been indicated, is that there are considerable other uncertainties surrounding this.

If I may say so, my noble friend might have somewhat exaggerated the degree of certainty that the system in the Bill, and her plans for it, will actually produce. What she said is really not accepted by a number of local authority associations. Perhaps I might just refer to one. London Councils suggests that while the system of top-ups and tariffs might remain constant within the business rates retention element of the system, although the adjustment for revaluation may alter this, uncertainty will continue to exist around the total level of funding that local authorities can expect to receive under this system. It points out that this really is not ideal. We have of course had references to the problem of setting budgets, not just for 2013-14 but thereafter.

To some extent, this overlaps the proposition in Amendments 13 and 14. These amendments go to the heart of the policy that lies behind this part of the Bill. They highlight what appears to be a contradiction between the laudable ambitions of Ministers to transform the system in the interests of economic growth, on the one hand, and on the other of what seem to be the instincts of the government machine to retain a very firm grip on the levers of control. This is an instinct that I of course recognise but in this context deplore.

The aim of this debate and the amendments that I am moving is to elicit from my noble friend a statement of the continuing willingness of Ministers in the department to do battle against the inertia of Whitehall’s controlling instincts and to hold fast to the vision of promoting growth and development. These are arguments that we developed at some length during the debates on the Localism Act, with, I have to say, some quite tangible results—Ministers recognised that if you were giving local authorities a general power of competence, it was rather silly to have pages and pages of the Bill telling them exactly how to do it. I am not asking for the impossible here but simply for recognition that one must resist the tendency for Whitehall to control town halls.

A fundamental principle behind the localisation of the business rates is that local residents of councils that actively promote development will see the benefit of extra growth in the form of retained tax receipts. To put it simply, it is an incentive, and that is what it is intended to be. It makes very real for councils the basic economic truth that the state prospers only if the nation does. All government, not just local government, can spend only what productive businesses earn. I recognise at once that many councils already care deeply about promoting their local economies. The evidence for that is clear as they put effort into economic development through activities as diverse as the way they operate the planning system, build up the local tourism offer—that has been referred to—tackle local unemployment, find training opportunities for young people and maintain the effectiveness and attractiveness of the local high street.

The evidence also shows that communities that know that extra development brings extra funding for public services take a different attitude to what might otherwise appear to be difficult decisions—one thinks particularly of planning decisions. That is not just my own opinion or even some abstract economic theory; we have as evidence the DCLG’s own excellent analysis, overseen by Professor Henry Overman of the London School of Economics. That analysis calculates for us the precise incentive effects from retaining business rates locally. It draws on empirical economic studies and the current academic literature. It shows that on a middle-case scenario, and of course there are margins for variability on either side, the Government’s policy could generate an extra £10.1 billion of gross domestic product as the result of the incentive effect of localising just half the business rate revenue, affecting councils’ planning decisions. Half is what the Bill provides, of course, and is what is intended to remain in place until 2020.

However, the evidence shows something more than that. According to the Government’s analysis of that best academic literature, this incentive effect works in direct proportion to the share of the business rate that is retained locally. For every extra percentage share of the rate revenue localised, the gain in GDP increases too. The more of the rate revenue you localise, the more extra-economic growth you get as a result. As I say, this is the finding of the Government’s own analysis.

I come therefore to the point of the amendments. If the Government believe their own economic analysis and if they really want to see economic growth—I cannot think of any of us who would not want to see that—the economic argument is completely compelling: we should localise as much of the business rate as we possibly can.

However, that is not what my noble friends have chosen to do. Instead, the policy is to fix 50% as the central share of the rates which councils must continue to surrender to the Exchequer. One can only speculate on the reasoning behind the figure of 50%, which seems a suspiciously round number, but the effect is clear. The mechanisms required to impose the 50% central share will mean that the DCLG will need to continue to involve itself deeply and in detail in councils’ financial affairs for some years to come. Central government will be kept busy. More than that, to go back to Professor Overman’s research, if the local share is set at 50%, so is the growth incentive of the new scheme. Are we really happy to try to escape the current choppy economic waters by going at only half speed?

Amendments 13 and 14 challenge the way in which the central share arrangement in effect contradicts the commitment to growth that lies behind the scheme in this Bill. They would require the size of the central share to reduce progressively over time—I suggest a minimum of 5% a year—and the local share to increase accordingly. They take the Government’s policy intention at face value and in the light of their own published economic evidence, and impose a framework that would allow them, over time, to increase the growth incentive built into the new system and as a consequence to increase the economic output of the nation. That seems to me to be a thoroughly desirable objective.

My noble friend has said on other occasions that 50% would not stay for all time; it is the Government’s hope, as they put it, that as the economic situation improves they will be able to increase it. But if increasing it earlier actually helps to put the Government’s economic policy firmly on to a growth trajectory, we really ought to consider that. When local authorities are looking for an opportunity to get a bigger than 50% share, that share should grow over a period of years. They are asking for something that is not only in their own interests but in the interests of the nation at large. I beg to move.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 37A, tabled in my name. I need to declare some interests. I am the honorary secretary of the All-Party Group on Social Enterprise, which I founded in 2001. I am a patron of Social Enterprise UK, and the ambassador for Spota, the trade body for a sports and leisure trust and an associate of Social Business International. The last two are modestly remunerated and are listed in the register of interests. I am a founding chair of Social Enterprise UK, a former trustee of Jamie Oliver’s Fifteen Foundation, Social Enterprise London and Training for Life, and I am a lifelong member of the Co-operative movement. Noble Lords will understand that with that background I know quite a lot about charities and social enterprises, but I have to say that local government finance does not rank highly among my areas of expertise. That is why I am so pleased that my noble friend Lord Smith and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, have agreed to support this modest amendment because they certainly understand much more about the detail of business rate relief.

What we are considering today is not a partisan issue. It is in no one’s interests for the development of trusts to provide sports facilities, theatres, museums and libraries at the local level to be discouraged in any way, so it is disappointing that the issue has not been resolved since the Committee stage. When we last discussed this in Grand Committee on 5 July, it was clear that the Minister anticipated that it would be. She said:

“I understand the question of sports and leisure clubs is still under discussion, and perhaps we may be able to deal with that at a later stage”.—[Official Report, 5/712; col. GC 407.]

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Thursday 7th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, we need to recognise this for what it is—a full-frontal attack on this part of the Bill. I am sure that I do not need to say that to the Minister.

I need to amplify the remarks that I made to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. I am an urban person—I live in Bradford and in London—and I have been involved in community activities, projects and the acquisition of land and property for community benefit in both places. For example, my title is Baroness Thornton of Manningham. I am the patron of the community centre in Manningham Mills—the wool mill in Manningham which was acquired as part of an arrangement to provide a community centre in a very deprived urban area. That is what we are talking about. It was acquired through the imagination and drive of local community organisations and is replicated in thousands of initiatives, both rural and urban, across the country.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

What more does the noble Baroness think this part of the Bill will give to what already existed for the acquisition which she has just referred to? She and her group seem to have been very successful in acquiring it; why do they need all this bureaucracy?

[Baroness Thornton]

If I can continue with my remarks I think there will be some agreement across the House. We would all prefer the Secretary of State to have a smaller role in these matters. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that this is a convoluted part of the Bill which may need simplification and to give more reassurance. However, it does not need to be deleted completely. The Government are on the right lines.

In answer to the noble Lord’s question, I would be happy to list for the noble Lord, although perhaps not right now, a host of initiatives that have fallen by the wayside, either because the powers or the time did not exist for community organisations to raise the money—this applies also in rural locations—to enable them to use the asset in question for community benefit. That is what this part of the Bill is about, and I believe that the Government are on the right lines.

During the Second Reading debate I said to the Minister that we needed to discuss this part of the Bill. I have yet to be involved—as have any of my Front-Bench colleagues—in any discussions on this part of the Bill, but we hold ourselves ready. On Tuesday evening several remarks were made about the discussions taking place but, so far, those discussions do not involve us. I hope that that will change. I also hope that organisations that are expert in these issues—the Plunkett Foundation, Locality—will also be involved in those discussions. I am sure and confident that this House can resolve this situation satisfactorily.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question. I have a great deal of sympathy for the noble Lords’ amendments. I am not sure what my Front Bench is going to say, but this sounds like a very useful discussion to have about how to extend local rights. My question, because I am a champion of social enterprises and the voluntary sector, is whether they, too, will be able to challenge for those national services that might appropriately be delivered at a local level. That would seem appropriate.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

Immediately, exactly the same bodies and people, including local charities and voluntary bodies, should be able to challenge these national services, in the same way as the Bill provides for them to challenge local services.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I want to make one or two points. I have been hugely impressed by what my noble friends have been saying about this. I listened with care to what my noble friend on the Front Bench said about the objectives behind these provisions and I shall want to read that very carefully in order fully to understand. I am not sure, possibly as a result of my poor hearing, that I got it all, but I will read it.

My fear is due to the fact that the whole essence of localism is supposed to be building a partnership between local authorities and local communities. It depends for its development on the good will that will be generated by this process. I have put my name to a lot of amendments, including that to which the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, spoke earlier, because it seems to me that that is essential.

We are talking about public assets. I find it quite extraordinary that this is intended to apply to a wide range of privately owned assets. Businesses, yes—the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made the point that, if there is a business such as a post office, a pub or something else that is going out of business, it is perfectly reasonable that a community might wish to say, “We can run this. We will take it over. We cannot open for the full time, but we will be open so many hours in the week” and be able to do that. That is a voluntary and community partnership.

What I find difficult is that this is all to be imposed by central government. There must be some way in which the statute could be drafted so as to build on the idea of community partnership with local authorities rather than giving everyone the sense that this is being imposed on them from the centre. One fact tells the story: there are 54 references to specific cases where the Secretary of State can issue regulations from the centre in this part of the Bill alone. The whole thing is being imposed from the centre.

I do not want to go on singing this song because I have sung it a good deal during the passage of the Bill, but the amount of detail that the Government are seeking to impose is absurd. Why do they have to decide and lay down what is of community value? Why can a local authority not establish criteria? Guidance could be given about the sort of principles, but does that need to be included in statute? Why does the Secretary of State have to decide who can make a nomination and who cannot? This gets the whole thing off on entirely the wrong footing, and it is the wrong sort of emotional approach to what one is trying to achieve—that is, localism, local responsibility and the ability of local authorities to respond to the desires of the local community. After all, the councillors are elected by people from the local community. That is the relationship that one should be building on. As a number of people, including my noble friends Lord Greaves and Lord Tope have said, this gives the impression that no one in Whitehall trusts local authorities unless they are being told what to do.

I am sorry, but I get quite hot under the collar about this because it rather upsets me. I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, who put his name to the question on whether the clause stand part, to which I have also added my name. Having considered the details of the anxieties and objections of the local authority associations—I have them all here but I will not weary the House with them—I have come to the view that we cannot go ahead with this part in the way that it is currently conceived or drafted. The whole concept behind this seems to be drawn up on the wrong principles. I hate having to differ in such a rooted way from my noble friends on the Front Bench but one really has been driven to this. I have not had anything like the representations that my noble friends have had and have spoken about but, hearing them and realising what is behind this, I beg my noble friends to think again.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, it is time that someone stood up and said how much they welcome what the Minister had to say and how much they agree, although it may not help her for me to say so from these Benches. On what the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said about Governments of a different complexion, I say to him that in my view my own Government were really rather timid on this matter.

Why does the community right to buy matter? There are thousands of community organisations in this country that need the right to buy. This is not about central government imposing something on the local community; it is about giving a right to buy. I shall take a moment to explain. Healthy, viable communities are in the interests of landowners and everyone else. The community right to buy in the Bill is a significant step towards realising the aspirations of localism, the big society, the good society and community regeneration—aspirations that to a high degree are shared across the political spectrum. It would be a bitter blow for hundreds of communities if these actually quite modest proposals were derailed in this House.