Dental Care

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The arrangements for eye care, similarly, are an extremely delicate matter, because the eye is a potential source of infection, and both workers and patients are at risk through work done by opticians. We are extremely keen to get back to normal, but we put the safety and care of patients and staff first.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My question to the Minister is an amalgam of those already asked, and I want to press him on them. Everyone needs dentists to be able to survive this pandemic and to be open to do their job as soon as possible. What financial support might be given to the sector to make that happen? What steps are the Government taking to ensure that there are treatment guidelines and access to PPE?

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, I completely endorse the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I lost a front tooth a few weeks ago and I cannot wait for the dentists to reopen because it is both uncomfortable and embarrassing. We are providing enormous financial support through NHS contracts, which we have honoured 100% through the epidemic whether or not dentists are seeing patients. However, we recognise that there is a problem with the private sector, and we are working with colleagues in the Treasury to try to find a solution.

Mental Health Services

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right. I am living with four children who are greatly distressed at losing their friends and not being able to stay in touch in the way they would like. We will undoubtedly need to provide support to schools to cover a list of mental health issues. The Secretary of State for Education is working on plans for that.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, as a nation, a vast number of us have seen our mental health deteriorate during the coronavirus crisis, so the challenges facing our mental health services are even greater than they were before. Surely we need a strategy to take us through the Covid-19 pandemic that takes account of the most welcome promises in the NHS long-term plan and addresses and scrutinises the impact of the pandemic on mental health and learning disability settings, including the impact of the temporary measures in the emergency legislation. Such a strategy must address how and when the DoLS legislation will be rolled out, and when and how the Government will bring forward reforms arising out of the review of the Mental Health Act. Does the Minister agree that these are the key ingredients of such a strategy? When will we see progress in this area?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is right: the Covid epidemic will throw a spotlight on our mental health provision. That provision is already benefiting from an extra £2.3 billion a year by 2023-24. We have already brought forward the 24/7 crisis lines that were due to be delivered in 2023-24, and I think there is a good case for bringing forward other parts of our mental health strategy to address mental health issues during the Covid epidemic. Undoubtedly, we will focus very shortly on ways of doing that.

Covid-19: Response

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

The Statement was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for not repeating the Statement, which I have read.

First, I want to ask about these Covid-19 symptoms: lack of taste and smell. The Minister will know that many healthcare specialists and the World Health Organization were making these warnings eight weeks ago, so can he explain why there has been a time lag in updating the definition?

I start by referring back to the question, on testing and tracing and the NHSX app, which I posed to the Minister yesterday and which he did not answer. I asked him whether it was true that in a Downing Street briefing that morning it was announced that the rollout of the app has been delayed until June. Is that true? When can we expect the rollout? Indeed, will we see the rollout of this app at all? If the Government will not use the app any time soon, does that mean that testing, tracking and isolating have to work smoothly and effectively at local level? That raises many questions.

We on the Benches welcome the wider rollout of testing, of course. Can the Minister update the House on whether the screening of all healthcare workers, whether they are symptomatic or not, has been successfully rolled out? What proportion of healthcare workers have been tested so far? Will they be tested every week? If not, how often? This is important, because it has been reported that 20% of hospital patients got Covid-19 while in hospital for another illness or treatment. So if routine NHS work is to be restarted, patients must be confident that they are in a Covid-free environment.

Can the Minister inform the House of the progress on antibody testing? Are these tests now widely available? If so, for whom? If they are not yet available, when will they be available? I gather from a widely available advertisement that I could have what is said to be a PHE-approved antibody test right now for about 100 quid. Would the results of that test be acceptable if I wished to use it to prove to an employer that I could got to work, go to school or teach at school?

On tracing, we on these Benches have long argued that the safe way to transition out of the lockdown is by having a test, trace and isolation strategy in place. Can the Minister tell us the current median time for test results to be received by someone when the test is carried out by Deloitte and other private sector testing facilities? More crucially, how soon do directors of public health and GPs receive the results of those tests?

Is that how it works: that the test is nationally organised and carried out, and the results are fed back locally? Who are they fed back to, and are those people responsible for tracking and tracing? Are they people the experienced local public health tracers or are they some of the 21,000 tracers who, we are informed, have been recruited? To whom are any or all of them accountable for tracking down people who are infected? As the Minister knows, we on these Benches believe that the Government should have made better use of local public health services. Who will inform people who have been in touch with a person with Covid-19 to isolate? Who is responsible for what happens to those people who must isolate, and for whether their families are supported in doing so? Where does the national call centre delivered by Serco fit in to this system? Can the Minister tell us by what date tracing and tracking services will be operational? Will they be operational by 1 June? I have raised with the Minister the issue of isolation. Why is that not mentioned as one of the key elements of the test-and-trace strategy?

Turning to care homes, I note what the Secretary of State said about social care last week: that he had thrown a “protective ring” around care homes. What constitutes a protective ring? The spread of coronavirus in care homes has become a crisis within a crisis. It was reported by the Guardian on 13 May that during the period coronavirus has been spreading in the UK, there have been as many as 19,938 excess deaths in care homes, well above the figure attributed to coronavirus by the ONS, leaving an urgent question about the causes of these deaths. None of this suggests anything remotely protective.

The reality is that there was no early lockdown of care homes, which was needed, and no early testing of people transferring from hospitals to care homes until mid-April. Prior to 15 April, the Government’s care home advice said:

“Negative tests are not required prior to transfers/admissions into the care home”.


That was not rescinded until mid-April, when the Government eventually issued their care homes strategy. Today, the CQC report says that 36% of care homes have Covid-19. That seems to be a greater proportion than that being admitted by the Government. Weeks later, do we yet have full testing of all residents and care home staff? No wonder Age UK say that this is “too little, too late”. When will they all be routinely tested? What is the date for that?

Turning to the R number, can the Minister guarantee that every easing of restrictions—such as asking children to return to school—is accompanied by a government statement on the expected impact on the R number and the underlying prevalence of the infection? If the R number rises to be greater than one in a region or local area, how will the Government deal with that?

Finally, I want to be clear that we on these Benches are desperate for the Government to succeed in beating this virus. We will and have supported the Government. In return, we expect transparency, as everyone does. Let us see the science. Give us clarity about what people are expected to do, truthfulness when things go wrong, as they inevitably will, accurate communication on all occasions and regular accountability to Parliament. We deserve no less.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement. The ONS statistics this morning showed that over 44,000 people have lost their lives, with the Financial Times estimating that the total figure is now well over 60,000 when a percentage of excess deaths is taken into account. From these Benches, we send our sympathies to all bereaved families and friends, and our thanks and support to the amazing front-line staff in the NHS, social care and community sector, and to others in key roles working to save lives and keep people safe.

The Secretary of State began his Statement by talking about flattening the curve, but yesterday an article in the British Medical Journal said:

“What is clear is that the UK’s response so far has neither been well prepared nor remotely adequate … Above all, the response to covid-19 is not about flattening epidemic curves, modelling, or epidemiology. It is about protecting lives and communities most obviously at risk in our unequal society.”


We agree.

I echo the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about the acceptance, at last, by the Government of a third symptom, anosmia, but many other countries have more symptoms. France says that you should self-isolate if you have any symptom on a list of 10. Why do our Government still refuse to increase that list?

The Secretary of State has repeated his claim that he has prioritised testing in care homes, yet he still repeats that testing for everyone in care homes, whether staff or residents, will be only “offered” by 6 June. The Adult Social Care APPG is still hearing of care homes waiting for that “offer” of tests, and of others that have had tests but results still going astray or taking 10 to 14 days to be returned. On that basis, if Ministers are really prioritising care homes, why does the Statement announce testing for members of the public over the age of five now while people at the heart of the firestorm of Covid in care homes still have to wait up to two weeks before being offered a test?

Still on testing, can the Minister tell us the percentage breakdown of PCR testing results versus antibody testing results? If not, can he tell the House when this information will be publicly available? We need as many PCR tests as possible as part of an effective test, trace and isolate programme. How many of those carrying out testing are paid roles versus volunteers? A couple of weeks ago, the Minister told your Lordships’ House that testing would be extended through, among other things, a deal with Boots. Five days ago, Boots had an advertisement seeking volunteer testers taken down after public outrage that a company that had been given a commercial contract with the Government was relying on volunteers to carry out the work. Was using volunteers part of its tender to government? If so, does the Minister approve of companies using volunteers while pocketing public money in a contract?

On tracing, it is encouraging to hear that more than 21,000 tracers have been recruited, but today there are reports of people recruited receiving multiple emails congratulating them on being successful or attending online training that has completely fallen over and failed technically. Can the Minister say what percentage of those 21,000 have received full training and are now working as tracers? Last week, the Secretary of State said that local tracers would be used, whether local health or environmental health tracers, as well as central ones. Can the Minister say how many local tracers—that is, not Serco call-centre tracers or central NHS tracers—there will be from the 21,000?

The Statement asserts that the Government now have all the elements to roll out their scheme of test, track and trace, but I repeat that there is no focus on isolation for those who have to quarantine. Test, trace and isolate is used not just by the WHO but by many countries. What plans are in place to support people isolating, whether at home or in a quarantine unit, once lockdown is lifted? They will feel much more vulnerable at that point, when everyone else is moving back into their normal lives. Experience from Taiwan, Germany and South Korea shows that community health support for those in quarantine is more likely to make it successful. Again, countries that have been successful in containing the virus all had fully operational test, trace and isolate programmes up and running from day one. Given that each new venture the Government have undertaken during this crisis, as outlined in the BMJ article—from expanding PCR tests from a low base to manufacturing ventilators, supplying PPE and now the tracer app—has had a very problematic start, to put it kindly, are the Government starting to run full contact tracing now, using new staff in an area that has sufficient cases of coronavirus, before lockdown starts to be lifted but particularly by 1 June? It would be inappropriate for schools to return and people further to return to work without such a system in place.

Covid-19: NHS Contact Tracing App

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Monday 18th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, ID cards do not form part of the British tradition. We work on a system of consent and we have a very high level of trust in the Government. The app is particularly well suited to a country that has a universal NHS system, and that is one reason why we have designed it in the way that we have.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that the national rollout of the NHSX app has now been delayed until June? Does he share my concern that a government spokesperson has said that it is possible for the test and track system to work without an app, and for the lockdown to be relaxed further without a system operating at all? This is deeply worrying, given that the Government have admitted that they should never have stopped track and trace in the early stages of the pandemic and now appear to be reneging on a commitment to make it a priority.

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, it is entirely right that test and trace does not need a digital app to be effective. I reassure the House that prevalence levels are reducing across the country, as is the infection rate. It is only because prevalence and infection are reducing to manageable levels that we can even consider reducing the lockdown and maintaining pressure on infection through test and trace. The app brings many benefits of being able to automate millions of transactions a day, but it is not intrinsically necessary, and we believe that it would benefit from being introduced later, rather than earlier, than human-based tracing mechanisms.

Draft Human Tissue (Permitted Material: Exceptions) (England) Regulations 2020

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Monday 18th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to the register of interests and my position as an NED of a hospital trust. I agree with the very important last point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about the European Union rules and regulations. It would be a great shame if we lost our ability to access or give organs across Europe because the Government had crashed out.

It is a great pleasure and honour to speak in this debate. Of course there are some Covid-related questions to be asked, as anticipated by the Minister, but I confess that it is a relief to undertake some positive legislative work, which is the everyday business of this House.

I do not wish to appear ungracious at a time of great agreement and celebration about this Act and these regulations. However, listening to the Minister’s opening remarks, one might be forgiven for thinking that this was a government Bill, when it was in fact a Private Member’s Bill, brought forward by two of my honourable friends in the Commons. As the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said, it is a great example of parliamentarians doing their job over quite a long period of time and bringing forward progressive legislation that people really want. That the Government backed this is of course vital, and I congratulate them and the Minister on doing so.

I thank the Minister for his excellent introduction, my noble friend Lord Hunt for his inspiring and thorough speech, and all noble Lords who participated in this debate. I commend my noble friend for taking the legislation through your Lordships’ House and gaining support across the House, as illustrated by the contributions today, for this important and life-enhancing change.

The Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Act 2019 amended the Human Tissue Act 2004 to allow consent for organ donation from deceased donors to be deemed in specified circumstances. These new arrangements have been referred to as “deemed consent”, but “opt-out” has generally been used in public communication, including in the press. During the passage of the Bill, noble Lords scrutinised effectively how the very sensitive issues dealt with in it and these regulations might be handled, so we are now finally able to agree the final regulations.

I do not intend to rehearse the many moving stories about organ transplants here today. We all understand how important this change is and, as many noble Lord have said, that its effect will save lives and change lives for the better. However, I take this opportunity to further press the Minister about the low level of transplants during the period of lockdown. Just 99 organ transplants were carried out in the UK in April, which is the lowest number for 36 years.

While we understand the need to delay operations given the demands on NHS capacity, as well as the risk to patients of proceeding with a transplant and being heavily immunosuppressed in a hospital environment, the fall in the number of operations is deeply concerning. It will inevitably lead to a backlog of patients needing organ donations and increased waiting times and mortality rates. The data has also shown that just 206 patients were added to the waiting list in April, down from 524 in March, suggesting a delay in assessment that could leave patients waiting even longer for a new organ. This is especially important given that the Covid-19 pandemic has resulted in further pressures on the supply of organs too. Patients who test positive for coronavirus cannot be donors, while the lockdown measures have resulted in a decline in the number of road and industrial accidents so there are fewer organs available for transplantation.

Can the Minister give the House a timetable for when this situation will improve? What steps are the Government taking to ensure that those who may require a transplant are assessed and, if necessary, added to the transplant waiting list during the pandemic? How quickly will transplant operations be back to the level of before the crisis? If we are unfortunate enough to experience another spike in Covid-19 and have to bring back the lockdown, and have more Covid-19 patients in our hospitals, will the NHS—with the experience gained from the last few months—seek to have hospitals which can continue to undertake transplant surgery in a Covid-free and protected environment?

I find myself completely in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and my noble friend Lord Hunt that communication and promotion of these regulations and the new law is now vital. I close by paying tribute to Geoffrey Robinson, the former MP for Coventry North West, Dan Jarvis MP and my noble friend Lord Hunt, who sponsored the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill on which these regulations are based. The ambition is a big one: to achieve an 80% consent rate in England, which will add at least 280 extra donors a year. This could lead to as many as 700 more transplants a year, which seems a very worthwhile aim.

Covid-19: Testing

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord will know that we have set up one of the most ambitious surveys, conducted by the ONS, to study on a weekly basis a large number of viral and serological tests. Those are used by statisticians to understand both the prevalence and the spread of the disease. Figures for that are emerging—we now have three weeks-worth of figures. They are being published regularly and I would be glad to send the noble Lord a link to the relevant data.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My question is relevant to what has been in the news today concerning antibody testing. PCR testing is the most reliable but most resource-intensive test. Will it ever be sufficiently scalable for widespread regular testing of all key workers and to track clusters of reinfection? Are the Government investigating the potential of increasing the reliability of antibody testing by double testing? Now that a range of tests is being manufactured globally, will the Government publish their assessment of their relative efficacy in testing the two relevant antibodies?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right. PCR testing is an important guide as to who has the virus, and we have made it available to all key workers who exhibit symptoms. However, we are sceptical of whole-population surveys. Double testing might help if there is damage to serological equipment, but the challenges of serological testing are more to do with the blood, and unfortunately people do not change their blood. We are very proud of British universities, which regularly publish assessments of the various serological approaches. That work is under way and continues, and we hope to make more progress on it in the months ahead.

Covid-19: Vulnerable Populations

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, a strange and peculiar feature of the epidemic has been that accident and emergency wards are, surprisingly, below normal capacity since people have sought to avoid them because of the obvious threat of the disease. That said, nosocomial infection is of grave concern. It is an inevitable and frequent feature of any epidemic, but we are applying new ways of working and seeking to section off those with the disease to ensure that the infection does not spread in our hospitals and from there into the community.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to note that today is International Nurses Day. I pay tribute from these Benches to all our nurses, at home and all over the world, for their work and courage in these dark pandemic times. I will ask the Minister about testing in our care homes. On 15 April the Government announced that they were rolling out testing to all care workers. On 28 April they extended this scheme to all staff and residents in care homes. Could the Minister explain why, then, yesterday’s strategy document set a target of 6 June? Which is it? It looks like the Government failed to meet the promise to provide the tests on time and have now moved the goalposts again.

[Lord Bethell]

I share the noble Baroness’s celebration of Florence Nightingale Day, which is an important day for the nursing profession and for all of us. We have made huge progress on testing in care homes in the last three weeks. The new portal was made live on Monday and care homes are now massively supported by satellite care home facilities manned by the Army. I am not sure about the 6 June date of which she speaks, but I reassure the House that care home testing is the number one priority of our testing facilities and is benefiting from the large increase in capacity.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction and I thank all noble Lords for the many questions they have raised, which needed to be asked. We all wish these regulations were not necessary, but we also accept that they are. I think the counsel of the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, is dangerous and potentially fatal and I hope the Government will not heed it. This virus is still among us. It is not defeated, and we need to be cautious and, most of all, clear.

Before getting to the substance of these regulations and the future, it is important to remember that they represent the biggest peacetime restrictions that this country has ever seen and demand full parliamentary monitoring and scrutiny. Parliament put them through at speed, and I wonder whether the Minister agrees that a couple of hours of debate weeks after they were introduced cannot in future be sufficient to provide the level of examination and scrutiny that such sweeping laws require. The Prime Minister’s announcement, the publication of the new strategy, the subsequent debates and discussion and the statement made last night on the BBC by my right honourable friend the leader of the Labour Party, Sir Keir Starmer, all point to the need for greater clarity and significantly better communication. The main point concerns the need to come back to Parliament with yet more amendments to these regulations. Does the Minister anticipate that we will see further revisions to the regulations, and if so, when?

I would like the Minister to address some of the problems caused by the mixed messaging and to try to rectify the somewhat shambolic government communications over the past few days. For example, why have the Government called for people to return to work before the schools are open and not to go to work on public transport? To these Benches, that suggests a serious lack of understanding of ordinary people’s working lives. For the Prime Minister to say that he is sure employers will understand that some of their workforce will have childcare difficulties makes me wonder which planet he and his Ministers inhabit.

Will the Government bring forward further regulations, or even legislation, to provide protection for employees who are faced with the dilemma of employers demanding that they return to work when their children cannot go to school? Furthermore, is a grandparent allowed to look after one child but not two? Who exactly should return to work—as the Prime Minister said, “The next morning” —and how should employers keep their employees safe? The guidance on funerals also needs further clarification. It was championed by my noble friend Lord Kennedy but I feel that there is still considerable variety across the country, with some councils taking awful decisions and causing serious distress to families. Can the Minister ensure that the guidance issued is being followed? My noble friends Lord Kennedy, Lord Campbell-Savours, Lord Hunt and Lady Wilcox asked many questions, which I hope the Minister can answer.

These regulations allow officers to arrest and fine people for breaking the lockdown but, as many noble Lords have said, we know that they have been misinterpreted in some cases, with wrongful cases identified through social media and press reporting. Indeed, the Home Affairs Committee in the Commons voiced

“concern that police were enforcing government advice rather than the letter of the law”,

which is less strict. Parliament’s Joint Committee on Human Rights previously warned that the police may be punishing people “without any legal basis”, causing confusion over the extent of the law. Can the Minister confirm that all criminal charges made under the Act will be duly reviewed to ensure that they are appropriate and compliant? Given the pace at which the new regulations had to be implemented, it is not surprising that there have been early problems and errors, hence the need for a second set of amending regulations.

We all know the damage that this virus is doing to our society and we all know that these measures are needed to limit that damage, but we should not forget their impact. The physical and mental toll is huge, yet virtually everyone has been adhering to these rules in a way that is testament to the resolve and determination of the British people. Like the Minister, I congratulate everyone on their discipline, their thoughtfulness and the protection that they have afforded our NHS.

We acknowledge that this is terribly difficult. We do not want these measures to be in place for a day longer than is absolutely necessary, which is why they must be accompanied by openness, accountability and scrutiny at a greater level than we would ordinarily see. I note that the Chairman of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee considered a significant number of statutory instruments that make provision, either directly or indirectly, to deal with the coronavirus pandemic. He said:

“Some of these instruments temporarily impose significant and far-reaching restrictions on citizens and businesses, and the Committee noticed the use of a wide variety of different sunset dates and provisions.”


That is absolutely true. We face a very confusing legislative and regulatory framework.

I am also concerned about the monitoring of the Care Act and the other measures in the emergency legislation that we passed just before lockdown. When will we have the opportunity to discuss them in the House?

The three-weekly review of the regulations means that the Secretary of State is legally required to terminate any regulations that are not necessary or proportionate to control the transmission of the virus. Will a statement providing a helpful examination of that requirement follow the review, and will an Oral Statement follow each subsequent review? Can the Minister assure the House that relaxation of the measures and what will happen in the future will be discussed with opposition parties, employers, trade unions and, of course, the public?

That leads me to my next point. The current rules, sweeping as they are, are too numerous. As the Minister said, the next phase will contain a longer list of reasonable excuses to leave home; it is even more important that those rules be clear and consistent. The rules need to be harmonised with the advice, guidelines and all forms of official communication, as most noble Lords said. We do not want people to infer legal authority where there is none or to act outside the law. That is vital to preserve the rule of law. We know that the lockdown was a blunt tool—effective nevertheless—that will change by definition as restrictions ease. There will be a measure of nuance, distinction and variation that requires careful explanation and policing.

In conclusion, we on these Benches do not oppose the regulations, of course, but, given that they represent the most severe restrictions imposed on British liberty in modern history, it is critical that they be subject to continual comprehensive and transparent scrutiny.

Covid-19: Government Response

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating this Statement. I point out that the Commons took an hour to receive and discuss this update; we are getting 10 minutes. It is almost two weeks since I saw the Minister across this virtual Dispatch Box, which seems a long time in a pandemic. When we went into lockdown in March, he seemed to indicate his enthusiasm for being accountable to the House in lockdown. I regret to say that I do not believe that he or his colleagues have matched that aspiration. I place on record that it is shocking that noble Lords across the House are reduced to submitting vital questions about Covid to a lottery—a ballot of topical questions. That is not serious accountability. Unprecedented times need unprecedented procedures.

I have two questions. First, will the Minister support a proposal that he and his colleagues should come to the House every day and have a Covid-related Question Time, morning or evening, which would discuss the contents of the daily press conference and other urgent matters? Secondly, how does the Minister intend to fulfil his promise to the House that there would be an eight-week review of the Covid emergency legislation? By my reckoning, those eight weeks will be up in two weeks’ time.

[Lord Bethell]

I welcome the noble Baroness’s questions on accountability. However, I remind her that not all Covid-related matters are covered by the department of health; Ministers have been in front of the House every day it has been open, answering questions on Covid, and they have given fulsome and thoughtful answers to questions and scrutiny. I welcome also her question on the eight-week review, which, as she says, is coming up in a fortnight. I will find out how the usual channels wish to mark that occasion in the House, and I would welcome the chance to submit the Government to scrutiny on the matter.

Covid-19: Contact-tracing App

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Wednesday 6th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right to point to the importance of ensuring that the vulnerable are included. Of course, the app is not the only thing we are depending on. Manual track and trace in the conventional way of using a telephone and speaking to those who test positive will still be a core part of our track-and-trace arrangements. Efforts will be made to reach those who are vulnerable or digitally isolated to ensure that they have details of the provisions for these track-and-trace arrangements.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to follow up on the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, because she has put her finger exactly on how this may not work because either our most vulnerable and poorest communities will not have the technology or there will be problems with language. I would like some more detail from the Minister about exactly how the Government intend to roll this out. Given that it took such a long time to roll out the NHS volunteers system, I feel that we might find ourselves with our most vulnerable and poorest communities disadvantaged.

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right to be concerned about the vulnerable and our approach. I completely share those concerns. It is a massive challenge, but that does not stop us embracing the advantages of technology where millions of transactions can be done in a day which could never be done by more manual processes. An enormous amount will be invested in trying to reach out to those who are isolated, vulnerable or digitally excluded to ensure that they have details of our track-and-trace arrangements. Hiring an enormous army of track-and-trace experts has already begun, and details can be seen on my Twitter feed of how volunteers who have the right qualifications can join those efforts.