Assisted Dying Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean and Lord Phillips of Sudbury(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s helpful reply and for the intervention of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton. I will consider this extremely carefully. I personally think that it would be appropriate and simplest if we were to have a provision in this Bill rather than having to set in train a completely new statutory instrument, with all the separate procedures that that would involve. I should be grateful if Members of the House, after reflecting on this short debate, would get in touch with me if they have a particular view on the options that are now presented to us. For the moment, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)
The noble Lord mentioned that legal aid should also be available to members of the family and my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer made the same point. Would he take that view if members of the family were opposed to the wish of the person seeking assisted suicide? For example, if parents of a young person of 18 or 19 wanted to intervene, would his amendment cover the position of such parents?
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I am grateful for that intervention. I think my answer is this. I speak with the experience in the early part of my career of having had a lot to do with family matters and of acting for a coroner. The sad fact is that applications under the Bill when it is enacted could be highly contested, especially in circumstances where a close relative believes that undue pressure is being brought on the person making the application and is convinced that the application needs proper airing before a judge. I know that doctors will give their opinions, but sometimes the facts are complicated. Members of the family will not be able to approach doctors to say, “For goodness’ sake, do you not know blah blah blah?”. One needs to make arrangements for legal aid in such cases. I am utterly convinced that it would be scandalous if we allowed this to go forward without making arrangements for people who cannot afford legal advice. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
BSkyB
Debate between Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean and Lord Phillips of SudburyEuropean Union Bill
Debate between Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean and Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, as your Lordships will be aware, I tabled Amendments 7, 8, 15 and 16, which are in this group. I quite understand that the issues are different in the various amendments under consideration, but I believe that it was right to put them together and that their general thrust is in the same direction. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, for the way in which he introduced the amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, who made his points so clearly and fully. The Labour Front Bench—and, I believe, almost all those on the Labour Benches, although I have not interviewed them all personally—supports the principles behind the amendments.
I make one thing abundantly clear. We are not, in principle, against referendums. Some of your Lordships have expressed that view; that is not the view held as a matter of policy by the Labour Party. We believe that referendums have a place in most democratic countries—not necessarily in all. That was made clear from Second Reading, when we said that we would expect to have a referendum, for example, on adopting a new currency, on leaving the European Union, or abolishing the monarchy or either House of Parliament. We believe that referendums are appropriate for issues of real constitutional importance. I do not want anyone subsequently to misinterpret my remarks on that point.
In that respect, we are at one—at least, I thought we were—with the Government, who said that they, too, believed in issues of constitutional importance being the subject of referendums. The Constitution Committee stated something very similar. That is what makes the Government’s position so implausible.
The Constitution Committee said in paragraph 38 of its report published on 18 March:
“In our judgement, the resort to referendums contemplated in the European Union Bill is not confined to the category of fundamental constitutional issues on which a UK-wide referendum may be judged to be appropriate. Furthermore, many of the Bill’s provisions are inconsistent”—
inconsistent—
“with the Government’s statement that referendums are most appropriately used in relation to fundamental constitutional issues”.
That is a difficult charge, and I hope that the Minister will address it when he answers this debate. The Constitution Committee, on which, I remind him, his party, the Conservative Party, the Cross-Benchers and my party sit, came to the collective view that the Bill's provisions are inconsistent with the Government’s stated policy on the issue.
For our part, we think that the reason for it is to hold the coalition together. It is to keep the Eurosceptics happy, while keeping the Liberal Democrats more or less so. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said that far more elegantly a moment ago, but I hope that her party will look very closely at what she said, because it showed an admirable clarity of approach on her part.
The question therefore arises: why should the British public be called on to support a political aim by voting, for example, on the number and system of appointing EU Commissioners, or the appointment of judges and advocates-general to the European Court of Justice, or even some decisions about the EU's competence on foreign policy, as set out in Schedule 1? The truth is that the British public will not turn out for such referendums. We all know that. We shall have a hard enough time getting a respectable turnout on 5 May on changing the voting system in this country—something which is of real constitutional importance.
Much of what is covered in this Bill as subject to referendums is Parliament’s responsibility to deal with, and that is why we are here. A threshold turnout for a decision that is mandatory is just plain common sense. If the turnout threshold is not attained, it seems to me to be also just plain common sense that a referendum should be advisory only in its impact.
The Deputy Prime Minister, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, when speaking on the Barnsley by-election brushed off the result—in which his party gained 4 per cent of the vote—by saying that a turnout of 36.5 per cent was “abysmally low”, implying that it was a fundamentally flawed turnout because of the level that it attained. Does the Minister agree with the leader of his party that a 36.5 per cent turnout is abysmally low? If he does, at what point over 36.5 per cent does a turnout in a referendum become a true reflection of the electorate’s feelings?
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness, but I cannot help observing that the point about the Barnsley by-election was that the abysmal turnout of 36 per cent did not nullify the election, which is what the proposal here would do.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
In the election of an individual Member of Parliament, however low the turnout is, it does not nullify the election, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about constitutional change. It is a very different point. I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, given how connected he is on these issues, would be among the first to recognise that a long-term constitutional change is very different from electing an individual Member of Parliament.
We on this side would be prepared to consider a figure that the Minister puts forward but, more important perhaps, a figure that his colleagues in another place would find acceptable—something perhaps better than an abysmally low figure. However, in order to have future treaties or treaty changes decided on a turnout, however we define what is abysmally low, the turnout must be such that it does not undermine our parliamentary system of government. Low turnouts will simply not be credible. They will not be credible to most sensible people and the British public are sensible people.
Parliament has a duty to deal with these matters. We have to shoulder our responsibilities. We cannot just run for cover when something difficult is put to us. How can the Government suggest that asking the British public to decide on the appointment of Advocates-General will somehow reconnect the British public with Europe? Plainly, it will not. It is far more likely to turn off the British public and I suspect that the Minister knows that as well as the rest of us do. Either that or we will simply revert to the point where we do not have referendums at all.
This move towards dealing with any tricky issue by means of a referendum is simply not consistent with our parliamentary democracy. As my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford said, the turnouts would not even be of the abysmally low level described by the Deputy Prime Minister. The turnout would more likely be not abysmal but quite catastrophic—perhaps 10 or 15 per cent. That is not democratic. That is undermining democracy, at least in its parliamentary form.
Let me turn to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, who has in the past spoken passionately about reconnecting the British public and has good credentials on this issue. He spoke of the widespread scepticism in the country about protecting the UK’s interest against the EU. I agree with him that there is that view. How widespread and how deep is the scepticism may be a matter of debate between us, but he has always aspired to the dissemination of information about Europe and he spoke about those points with great eloquence at Second Reading.
Four speakers spoke in support of the Government’s position on this—the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Nicholson, Lady Falkner of Margravine and Lady Brinton. It was perhaps noticeable that those were the only four and they may give some comfort to the Minister. However, he will also note, as we do, that the position of the Liberal Democrats is at odds with how they voted on the possibility of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty.
The noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, said that this was a wearisome business. At this time of night, I think that we all sympathise with his sentiments. He told us that there had been a time when only two members of the Major Cabinet had supported the use of a referendum and that he, as one of them, was “a bit wobbly”. I do not believe that dealing with the coalition document should be anything like “approaching an altar”, as he described it. The point about the coalition document is that it was never put to the British public. The noble Lord said that the significance clause was perhaps a way out of the problem but, as we discussed earlier today—although many of us may feel that it was quite a long time ago now—the significance clause will in itself probably be the subject of huge controversy and no doubt of judicial review, too.
Therefore, I hope that the Minister will agree with his experienced and wise friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that on any issue a turnout of a very low proportion of the population really cannot trump the views of Parliament. Let us suppose that the turnout is only 10 per cent or 15 per cent. Why should that view trump the views of a Parliament that was elected by perhaps 60 per cent or 65 per cent of the electorate? How is that by any measure conceivably democratic? How is it right? How is it rational?
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, says that people must be listened to. Of course they must be, but they must be listened to if a turnout is of significant numbers of the public to express a view. It has to be a number that can be interpreted as a national view on the issue that is under consideration. However, if the turnout is very low—abysmally low, for example—those views should be only of an advisory nature. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, was right when she said that the Bill expresses no confidence in parliamentary democracy. If the Minister will listen to no one else, surely he will listen to the noble Baroness with all her experience. Surely he, who rightly voted against a referendum on Lisbon, can see the force of this argument.
The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, says that the tone of the debate was one of “We know best” and of expecting deference. I have to say to the noble Baroness that I really did not recognise that in the debate today. I was sorry that she said what she did. I thought that she put words into the mouths of others in a way that was simply not sustainable by reference to what noble Lords had actually said.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that referendums for the most part should be of an advisory nature. He said that they should be on every occasion. I think that on occasions there are points where they may be accepted on a mandatory basis, but only in exceptional circumstances.
European Union Bill
Debate between Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean and Lord Phillips of Sudbury(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
We did not promise that. We promised that we would have a referendum if there were a written constitution. The noble Lord may not have sat through those debates, but I am afraid that the House agreed with me and not with him on that point.
Finding compromises and striking balances is at the heart of what this House does both as part of the British legislative process and in its role as one of the key checks and balances in the British constitution. The House knows a compromise and a balance when it sees them but this Bill is a confusion not a compromise, a botch not a balance. Britain deserves better than this Bill. Europe deserves better. Liberal Democrat Members of this House who have a proud record on Europe—including those who, 30 years ago this week, left the party on the Benches behind me largely on this issue—certainly deserve better. We shall try to give that to them.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, the noble Baroness made the comment earlier that she did not think that the Bill would help reconnect British public opinion with the EU. What does she suggest would?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
During our debates on the European Union in the past, the noble Lord has himself put forward quite a few suggestions on how there could be better reconnection. There could be better reconnection through schools and in the sort of things that the noble Lord has suggested in the past, which I readily acknowledge were not taken up, of getting more information to people about the way in which the European Union can work to their advantage. The sheer complexity of what we are being asked to do and the potential proliferation of referendums under this Bill—if there are not referendums, that will be because of the use of the blocking mechanism—is not going to reconnect the people of this country with Europe at all. I hope that the noble Lord agrees with me.
Israel: Illegal Settlers
Debate between Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean and Lord Phillips of Sudbury(14 years ago)
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