Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Act 2019 (Port Examination Code of Practice) Regulations 2023

Debate between Baroness Suttie and Lord Coaker

Monday 4th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of these regulations. As he explained, they are consequential on the National Security Act and do not create new powers or make substantial changes to the primary legislation.

Clearly, there is cross-party consensus on the need to protect the public and to ensure national security, including border security. As a general comment, however, a balance should always be struck to ensure that measures are proportionate and that civil liberties are respected.

I will concentrate my very brief remarks on the draft Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Act 2019 (Port Examination Code of Practice) Regulations, which, through requiring a counterterrorism police officer of at least the rank of superintendent to authorise the retention of confidential business material, bring the process in line with existing terrorism legislation. In his concluding remarks, can the Minister expand on how the Government intend to ensure this will not add undue burdens to the system?

I thank the Minister for the letter he sent to noble Lords last week outlining the consultation that took place on these regulations. It is to be welcomed that the Government took on board the comments from Police Scotland on the videorecording code. However, regarding Northern Ireland and the very particular set of circumstances and international commitments regarding the border there, can the Minister confirm that, in the continued absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, consultations took place with the PSNI?

I was struck by the fairly small number of responses received to the consultation. I believe only five responses were received; perhaps the Minister could confirm that. I note that the consultation period was during the peak summer holiday period from 20 July to 31 August, which is perhaps, in part, an explanation for this. Can the Minister say if there was any particular reason why the consultation period was so relatively short?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining the SIs and for the statement he made. As he said, we have three statutory instruments before us: two relate to the National Security Act 2023, and one relates to the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Act 2019. We fully support these instruments and the consequences they will have on the threats posed by hostile activities and for the national security of our country. I join the Minister in thanking our intelligence services and those who work so hard to keep us safe.

Machetes: Consultation

Debate between Baroness Suttie and Lord Coaker

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, yet another Statement on what the Government propose to do on knife crime—a crime which, as we speak, is devastating lives and ripping families apart. Since 2015, knife crime has risen across the country by 70%, according to the Office for National Statistics, with the whole country affected. It is just four years since the Offensive Weapons Act but here we go again: 173 youths have been fatally stabbed since 2016. The statistics that the Government always use—namely, those of the Office for National Statistics—tell us that last year, the number of people killed with a knife was the highest in 76 years. How does that fit with the Government telling us what it seemed they did in the other place: that there is no real problem and it is all good news?

In its brilliant feature today on knife crime, the Daily Mirror points out many of the problems and their scale. Can the Minister explain why this Statement proposes yet another consultation on banning zombie knives? This is the fifth such pledge about banning them. In 2016, a ban was pledged. What happened? It was followed in 2017 by the next Home Secretary pledging another ban. What happened? In 2018, the next Home Secretary pledged another ban on zombie knives. What happened? In 2021, the then Home Secretary pledged such a ban. What happened? Here we are again: the Government pledge action and have another consultation, so will we get action this time? Can the Minister confirm that we will, on the fifth occasion of pledging a ban on zombie knives, actually get one?

Can the Minister explain why we need a consultation to tell us that a sword of 49 centimetres in length, rather than 50 centimetres, should be banned? Why is a 16-inch “First Blood” Rambo knife not already banned? Why can a 40-inch samurai sword be bought? People are appalled that this type of weapon is available, notwithstanding everything the Government continue to say. The consultation talks about banning fantasy knives but what about swords that fall short of the 50-centimetre length?

Has the Minister seen what you can actually buy online? I went online today, just to check. With a couple of clicks saying that you are over 18, on many such websites—and no actual age verification—all sorts of swords and knives are available. How on earth can that carry on? With no proper regulation, dangerous weapons are openly sold on the internet to people of all ages. What is going to be done about it?

The serious violence strategy was launched in 2018 but has never been updated. When can we expect that? Does the Minister regret that only now are we seeing police officer numbers returning to their 2010 levels, after the catastrophic mistake that was made to cut thousands of them and take them off our streets? Can the Minister say anything about prevention and what measures the Government are introducing to support local authorities, police, communities and other groups, including churches and other faith organisations, to tackle this shocking problem?

Knife crime is a very real problem and further urgent action is required. There are loopholes in the current law which must be closed—and now. Zombie knives and machetes are currently the weapons most frequently used in knife attacks. They can be sold online if they do not feature words or images suggesting violence. They are illegal to carry in public but not to keep privately. Online purchasing is easy, even illegally for under-18s. It has got to stop, and stop now. It is not more consultation that is needed but action—action now to keep our streets safe and bring the level of knife crime down. The Government need to act not with more consultation but with action.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for responding to this very important Statement. The measures in the consultation and the decision to ban machetes and certain types of large outdoor knives that serve no practical purpose are eminently sensible and broadly to be welcomed.

Far too many lives have been destroyed by serious knife crime violence and far too many families have been devastated as a result. However, I fear these measures alone will not be enough to reduce instances of violent knife crime. A visible police presence on our streets would make a very real difference. We also need to restore trust between the police and the communities they serve. Research from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Probation finds that many who carry knives do so because they believe

“the police and authorities will not protect them and so they must protect themselves”.

Could the Minister indicate how the Home Office is attempting to restore trust between the police and their communities?

The Minister in the other place talked about the Government introducing legislation to ban machetes and zombie knives, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has just said, the Government are actually announcing a seven-week consultation on the issue and not new legislation. Why are the Government not introducing urgent legislation to ban these dangerous weapons, rather than consulting on the issue?

What proportion of knife crime offences are carried out using the types of weapons covered by the Statement? What is to stop determined criminals or domestic abuse perpetrators reaching for equally deadly alternatives that fall outside the weapons covered in this consultation? What reduction in knife crime offences do the Government expect to see as a result of banning the weapons contained in this Statement?

Again, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, can the Government explain how they intend to crack down on the overseas websites where many of these knives are sourced? The Minister in the other place talked about coming down hard on retailers, but how do the Government intend to take enforcement action against retailers beyond their legislative reach? Can the Government explain how the proposed legislation will prevent determined criminals from purchasing such weapons online from overseas suppliers?

The Minister in the other place talked about the numbers of police officers. What is the number of community support officers currently in England and Wales compared with 2020? Police community support officers spend the majority of their time providing a visible and reassuring presence on the streets. What plans have the Government to replace the one-third of PCSOs lost since 2010?

I appreciate that this is rather a lot of questions. If it is not possible to respond to them all this evening, perhaps the Minister can write. We believe that this Statement is a step in the right direction, but the implementation and details will be absolutely key.