Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2022

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I give my whole-hearted support to the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and thank her for tabling it. This is a free-vote issue, of course, and the proceedings here today are of huge interest to the people in Northern Ireland. There are not many controversial issues in Northern Ireland that can be defined as neither orange nor green and cannot be interpreted by anyone as sectarian. This is one such issue. On a lot of Northern Ireland political issues, I am sure I probably would not agree with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, but this issue unites people across faiths and communities with different identities in Northern Ireland.

Up until 2019, as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has said, Northern Ireland had the right to decide its own laws on abortion. Then, some politicians here in Westminster decided that they could overrule the hard-won devolution settlement, and their campaigning was pretty tireless. But for me, this goes to the heart of whether devolution is to be meaningful. The Belfast/Good Friday agreement is meant to be the basis of all political decisions in Northern Ireland, and these regulations—and indeed the whole way the abortion debate has been handled by the Secretary of State—are, I believe, driving a coach and horses through that agreement.

I hope that Members of your Lordships’ House will actually take away the word “abortion” and not talk about abortion itself and their own personal views on the rights and wrongs of abortion, because this is much more fundamental. This is a fundamental constitutional change being proposed by regulation. The Secretary of State presented the regulations in the other place as changing the Northern Ireland Act in a limited and specific way, but that is simply not the case. These regulations set a precedent. They go right against the constitutional guarantee and give the Secretary of State power to make any decisions he sees fit, ignoring the will of the people of Northern Ireland.

Back in 2018, the Secretary of State said:

“it would not be appropriate for Westminster to seek to impose its will, or to be the arbiter of an issue that has long been devolved to the people of Northern Ireland.”—[Official Report, Commons, 5/6/18; col. 220.]

What happened? Why has he changed his mind? He has done a complete U-turn, and perhaps the reason is that he was being held prisoner by so many women actively campaigning on this issue. Now he wants to be the Minister of Health in Northern Ireland, or perhaps the Permanent Secretary of the Department of Health.

I genuinely think that the way this whole issue has been handled is shameful, and even more shameful when there are so many other crucial issues in Northern Ireland that the Government have chosen not to push forward. When it suits Her Majesty’s Government, they want devolution and they believe in devolution. When it does not suit them, they take away devolution, and that is what this is about today. Forget the issue of abortion: this is about the constitutional sabotage of devolution and the 1998 Act.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I speak in favour of the regulations before us this afternoon. As others have said, abortion is always a complex and highly emotive issue that is ultimately a matter of conscience for noble Lords. But in the debate this afternoon I think it is important to try to hold on to the facts and acknowledge why we are once again having to debate these issues. As the Minister set out in his opening remarks, we are debating these regulations because the Northern Ireland Department of Health has failed to make progress on implementing the 2020 regulations.

The 2020 regulations sought to bring Northern Ireland in line with the rest of the United Kingdom on reproductive rights for women and to ensure that the whole of the United Kingdom met its international requirements through CEDAW. I am very pleased that the Minister acknowledges the importance of adhering to our international legal obligations. In essence, we are debating two issues: the United Kingdom’s adherence to international treaty obligations, and the provision of equality of access for women in Northern Ireland to the same levels of reproductive healthcare as women can access in the rest of the United Kingdom.

For those colleagues who are concerned about the potential impact of these regulations on the devolution settlement in Northern Ireland, as a very firm believer in devolution, I believe that these are an exceptional set of circumstances that should not create a wider precedent. It would of course have been hugely preferable for the Northern Ireland Executive to have fulfilled their responsibilities directly following the adoption of the regulations in April last year. In that respect, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. However, once again, Northern Ireland finds itself without a functioning Executive, so it is currently not possible to make progress in this regard.

The international treaty obligations in CEDAW were signed by the United Kingdom as a whole, so the Government in Westminster have a duty to ensure that the whole of the United Kingdom implements them in full. This debate is really about implementing a law that has now been in place for over two years. It should not be about reopening or unpicking what should be a settled matter. A woman’s right to choose in Northern Ireland remains in a precarious position. The reality is that women continue to be forced to travel to England for abortion services; some women, in certain parts of Northern Ireland, continue to purchase unsafe abortion pills.

Whatever one’s personal view on abortion, surely this is an unacceptable position. There is an urgent need to see consistency of services and rights to reproductive health across Northern Ireland. For this to be possible, it is important that the commissioning process be concluded as soon as possible, to ensure that services are fully accessible to all who need them. Can the Minister reassure us that the necessary funding will be made available, and give an indicative timetable for this to be concluded?

In summary, these regulations are about ensuring that every part of the United Kingdom adheres to our international treaty obligations, so that every woman in Northern Ireland will finally be entitled to the same level of reproductive healthcare as women in the rest of the United Kingdom. I therefore urge noble Lords to support these regulations and to reject the amendment to the Motion from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan.

[The Lord Bishop of Blackburn]

My Lords, I am conscious that it is not commonplace for Prelates to comment on matters that extend to Northern Ireland only. However, what made me reluctant to speak on this matter is the same driving force that has brought me to speak—the fact that this was, and should be again, a devolved matter. My desire and aim today is not to speak around the rights and wrongs of the matter but to state my discomfort that this debate is happening in this place at all.

I believe the mandate for decision-making on this matter lies in Northern Ireland, with the newly elected Executive. I would much rather see increased efforts towards their establishment than our making decisions on their behalf. Much was said in this place, and in print and online media, about the fact that the regulations we seek to amend today came through this House and the other place when there was no sitting Executive in Northern Ireland. I was one of those frustrated at the timing, and I feel that it happened when there was no sitting Executive precisely because they would never pass such legislation. It was imposed, and these regulations continue to impose on Northern Irish people in what I believe is an unacceptable way.

The point could not be made more clearly than in the first proposed amendment in the regulations before us:

“The fact that a matter has not been brought to the attention of, or discussed and agreed by, the Executive Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly is to be disregarded”.


I am no stranger to legal language, but this does not make good reading. On top of this, we are also asked to support amendments which place financial demands on the devolved health service to fund decisions thrust upon it.

For these reasons, I am happy to see the amendment expressing regret from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. I fully support it, because no word can better describe how I feel about these regulations coming to this place than “regret”. I am happy for those in Northern Ireland to disregard my comments if they are considered unhelpful or unsolicited, but for this House to put into statute that the views of the Northern Ireland Executive should be disregarded in this way seems to me wholly wrong.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, the Liberal Democrat Benches broadly welcome the Bill in the context of delivering on the commitments set out in New Decade, New Approach—an agreement that, we should recall, was agreed by both the DUP and Sinn Féin, as well as by the majority of the other political parties in Northern Ireland. However, I deeply regret the context and political circumstances that mean it has proved necessary to pass the Bill here in Westminster. I appreciate that the Minister and his department are not directly responsible for negotiating changes to the Northern Ireland protocol, but the lack of progress in that regard and the sense of distrust that now pervades is hampering his department’s abilities to make progress on all matters of Northern Ireland politics.

It is the Government’s incompatible promises and their choice of the hardest possible Brexit that have taken us to this point, and it is the current absence of trust that is not allowing us to move forward and make progress. It is hard not to reflect that if it was possible to bring sufficient levels of trust to bring about the talks that led in the 1980s and 1990s to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, it is surely possible to do the same today in finding a practical way forward on the protocol. I have spoken privately to the Minister about finding someone all sides respect to act as a facilitator in this regard, and I sincerely hope that, behind the scenes, more is being done to resolve the stalemate on the protocol than currently appears to be the case. The people of Northern Ireland voted in good faith last month to have a functioning Assembly and Executive to tackle the many strategic, economic, healthcare and education issues that are so much in need of attention. The Government must leave no stone unturned in moving on from this current stalemate.

I turn to some specific aspects of the Bill, which, as I said earlier, we broadly welcome. As a Scot and a linguist who studied French and Russian at university, I am extremely aware of the importance of language to identity and culture. Indeed, I come from Hawick in the Scottish Borders, where we have our own very independent and distinct version of Scots and hold on fiercely to the cultural and musical traditions that stem from that powerful linguistic identity.

Embracing cultural and linguistic diversity should not, however, lead to prejudices against “the other”. Can the Minister confirm that “sensitivities” of others will not be interpreted as encompassing the prejudice or intolerance of others to another’s national or cultural identity? Can he also confirm that the provision should be read as a qualification only on cultural expression when interfering with the recognised rights of others?

Regarding the Irish language commissioner, can the Minister explain the rationale for placing in the Bill ministerial approval by the First and Deputy First Ministers of the Irish language standards produced by the Irish language commissioner? Can he further say whether consideration has been given to the risks that this provision could be used to frustrate the purpose of the commissioners? I believe there is a risk that this could result in unnecessary delays and so I ask the Government to reflect on whether this provision is really necessary.

The Committee of Experts—COMEX—which oversees compliance with the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages under the auspices of the Council of Europe has also broadly welcomed the commitments in the Bill. It has, however, assessed the package as falling short of fulfilment of the broader range of treaty-based obligations towards the Irish language entered into by the UK. Can the Minister say what further steps the Government plan to ensure that those international obligations are met?

Finally, can the Minister say why there was no consultation with Ulster Scots speakers prior to the Secretary of State’s Ministerial Statement that accompanied the introduction of the Bill? I welcome that he said he met them himself last week. The Bill moves away from a focus on Ulster Scots speakers as a linguistic minority to UK recognition of Ulster Scots as an ethnic group. The Minister will be aware of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission’s concerns and recommendations about conflating Ulster Scots as a recognised linguistic minority with Ulster British as a political identity. He will know that Ulster Scots speakers are from across the community in Northern Ireland. Will he please give us some reassurances in this regard when he concludes?

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that unilateral action would not carry the support of the majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, has said, and could potentially do huge economic and diplomatic damage at this time?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. In recent days, I have reflected on the number of people who, for decades, told us that we could never proceed in Northern Ireland on the basis of majority rule and majoritarianism, who are now the greatest champions of proceeding on that basis. It is clearly unsustainable to have a protocol in operation in Northern Ireland in its current form, which does not command the support of the largest designation of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That position is unsustainable and is what we are trying to fix.

Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Thursday 7th April 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for securing this important and timely debate. I recently had the privilege of chairing a lecture by the noble Lord at the Lloyd George Society in the National Liberal Club; I continue to be in awe of his level of historical knowledge and expertise.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, I have a varied set of connections with the union. As a Scot living on the Isle of Thanet in Kent, with an Irish passport because my father was born in County Fermanagh and a genuine and growing affection for Northern Ireland and its history, I am very much in favour of a strong union. But it must be a union that works for all its parts, based on respect and mutual understanding.

It is clear that Brexit and the Northern Ireland protocol have put additional strain on relations between Belfast and London. Although this primarily affects the unionist community, it none the less sometimes seems as though the Government are neglecting the 55% in Northern Ireland who voted to remain and the majority who now just want the protocol to be made to work more effectively.

The Constitution Committee, of which I am currently a member, published a report in January this year entitled Respect and Co-operation: Building a Stronger Union for the 21st Century. It attempts to put the positive case for why our union still matters and is highly relevant in the light of many of the global challenges that face us today. It also strongly endorsed many of the Dunlop review’s recommendations on improving intergovernmental relations between the four nations of the UK. Can the Minister say what measures have been taken to implement the recommendations contained in the Dunlop review? Does he agree that on legacy issues, for example, it is vital that the Westminster Government engage fully and listen with respect to the views of all political parties in Northern Ireland?

The continued lack of a Northern Ireland Executive is clearly a matter of grave concern. Can the Minister give reassurances today that the Government are pursuing all possible measures to reinstate the Executive as soon as possible? I fear the continued absence of the Executive will do very little to strengthen Northern Ireland’s relation with the union.

To conclude, for the union to be strengthened and to continue to last, as I hope it will, we have to look to the future and not always back to the past. It is worth recalling that there is now a generation of younger people in Northern Ireland who have grown up since the Troubles—a generation who can watch “Derry Girls” as a historical comedy drama without having lived through those times themselves. This younger generation is more concerned about issues such as climate change than the divided history of Northern Ireland. The union has to adapt and develop to meet the very different challenges of the world today.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Jay, for securing this timely and extremely important debate. I must confess that my thoughts this week—like most people in this Room, I imagine—have been with the people of Ukraine and the bravery of my many Ukrainian friends in Kyiv and beyond. It rather puts things into context.

I appreciate that the Minister is from the Northern Ireland Office and is almost certainly not in a position to answer my question, but it strikes me as nearly impossible for the Foreign Secretary and James Cleverly, the Minister for Europe, who is also dealing with Ukraine, to give the ongoing negotiations with the EU on the protocol the attention that they clearly deserve. Further to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, does the Minister believe that there is currently sufficient resource—in particular, political resource—available for those negotiations in the Government?

Continuing to threaten to trigger Article 16 in the current context does not strike me as particularly grown-up or sensible politics. Can the Minister confirm that, at least for the time being, triggering Article 16 is off the table? In the absence of the Executive, how are the political parties in Northern Ireland being involved in and consulted on the progress of negotiations? Does he agree that, in this pre-election period, it is particularly important that all parties are properly and fully involved in that process?

My noble friend Lord Thomas referred to the recent survey by Queen’s University, which reveals that attitudes to the protocol remain deeply divided, but there are at least distinct indications of a move towards acceptance of it—accompanied, however, by a desire to see it work more effectively in practice. It is fair to say that the protocol is very far from perfect, but does the Minister agree that it is currently the only solution on the table, which is why it is essential to continue to negotiate with partners in Brussels to find ways to make it work?

Northern Ireland currently faces so many challenges—the healthcare system, delivering integrated education and fulfilling its economic potential to name but three. These require a functioning and effective Executive. It is, frankly, tragic that, once again, the people of Northern Ireland find themselves without an Executive at this critical time. Clearly, these are challenging times at all levels, but can the Minister assure us that brokering solutions and finding a way to see a return to a functioning Executive remains a priority at the very highest level of government?

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 19th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, although I complete share and agree with every word of the point of view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, I will none the less return to Amendment 1, which we are discussing this afternoon. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, clearly spelled out the purpose of Amendment 1, to which I have added my name, and I will not repeat the many powerful points she made.

On these Benches, we believe that making the change set out in Amendment 1 and referring to the roles as “Joint First Ministers” would reflect the reality of the situation and remove an artificial and unhelpful distinction. Such a change would also do much to take some of the heat out of the debate and allow for a more constructive and issues-based debate in the run-up to the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly in May this year.

I understand from previous conversations with the Minister that he is open to giving proper consideration to making these changes. Does he not agree that it would be better if these changes were made sooner rather than later, and can he say when and how he intends to consult with the parties in Northern Ireland on this issue?

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I will make a few brief remarks in relation to Amendments 1 and 2. At the outset, I say that most people who live in the real world acknowledge that the Belfast agreement is a flawed piece of work. It is not perfect, and those of us who try from time to time to point out the imperfections are frowned upon as anti-democratic in some way.

I and my colleagues cannot support Amendments 1 or 2, not least because they are very much outside the scope of the Bill and the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which focused on ensuring the stability of the institutions. The appropriate vehicle for scrutinising the existing rules and appointments is the Assembly and Executive Review Committee at Stormont. This should certainly not be tagged on to the coat-tails of the Bill.

Your Lordships’ House should keep very much before it that, to put it mildly, the Northern Ireland Assembly is in a very difficult and precarious position. The protocol, which has already been referred to, has virtually put the Executive and the very existence of the Northern Ireland Assembly on life support. We were always told that nothing could move forward in Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority, and the consent of the minority. Of course, no unionist supports the protocol. But, somehow, we have been told, “Just suck it up and get on with it”.

Some time ago, when Sinn Féin sought to bring changes to welfare reform, it pulled the whole edifice down. Not only did it not get its demands at that time around welfare reform, but it then added three other demands and said that it would not go back until those were met—and nor did it go back until they were met in totality. They were steamed through the other place, and the Northern Ireland Assembly was given no say whatever. So the abuse of the cross-party and the majority of the majority and the majority of the minority has well and truly been kicked into touch.

Some of us are conversant with how decisions were agreed to assist in getting devolution done. That would not have happened if there had not been a St Andrews agreement. Again, everyone who lives in the real world recognises that. I know that some, even in this House, refuse to recognise that, but it is a fact.

The DUP is also opposed to Amendment 2. The purpose of the Bill is to legislate for measures agreed under the New Decade, New Approach deal, not to undo and tear up previous commitments at St Andrews in the absence of political consensus. It should be said that NDNA is a package, not a single item on its own, but that has been ignored to all intents and purposes. I know that at a later stage we will hear about a very useful amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I add that that is helpful.

Some seem to be asking for a full reset of the institutions, but we certainly are not. That is not in keeping with the spirit of what has been agreed. I said that the Executive and the Assembly are now in a very difficult place. This House should be ever mindful of that and keep it before us in all our deliberations. I reiterate that had it not been for the St Andrews agreement element of the devolution settlement then there would never have been an Executive and an Assembly at Stormont. Those who do not acknowledge that are just living in denial.

I listened intently to what the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said. She said that the St Andrews agreement had changed the emphasis on the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the Belfast agreement, or the Good Friday agreement, as some call it. I say this: the identical status never existed, even in the Belfast agreement. There was always a difference between the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, which helped to make things happen, so it did.

Furthermore, in the last election in Belfast North we had a very hard-working, industrious full-time Member of Parliament, Nigel Dodds, now the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. What did the SDLP and Sinn Féin do? They locked horns and a cabal was formed to oust that hard-working Member of Parliament. Who did they put in? Someone who declared, “I will never attend Parliament”, but has a fully paid-for political office while continuing to run his legal business elsewhere. Is that double-jobbing? It seems that it is not, yet if someone were to sit in Parliament, the Assembly or a local council and do that, it would be. We really need to catch a grip of things and try to realise what exactly is going on. This behaviour should be called out. Not only did the SDLP and Sinn Féin come together in Belfast North; as a quid pro quo, Sinn Féin stands aside in Belfast South to help to elect the SDLP.

Let us be very careful about rushing ahead and doing things in Northern Ireland without the consent of the majority in Northern Ireland. That is exactly what is happening at the moment. We have a protocol that is strangling our economy, but that does not seem to matter. We will continue to work for the changes in the protocol—indeed, it has to go; it is a massive hindrance. It will be one of the uppermost things that will help to destroy the Belfast agreement, and indeed the Executive and the Stormont Assembly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

We strongly welcome Amendments 3 and 9 in this group, which are about the early commencement of the Bill, as the Minister explained. We fully support them and are pleased that the Government have come forward with them.

I thank the Minister as well for the commitment he has given in the Chamber to coming forward with a report every six months about the implementation of the New Decade, New Approach agreement. If the House will forgive me—some noble Lords were not present in Committee and may not have had the opportunity to read the debate—the purpose of Amendment 6 was to get a report from the Government. The Minister has conceded on and agreed to do that, which is welcome, particularly regarding the first report in a few weeks’ time, which I think all noble Lords will find very helpful. In New Decade, New Approach there are serious constitutional issues that have been discussed today and will be discussed in the future. But alongside that, in the document there was a huge list of commitments made by both the British and Irish Governments to improving the situation in Northern Ireland, whether that be on infrastructure or, as it was at the time, the nurses’ pay dispute. It was all of those things.

I was simply trying to say that these are some of the things that people in Northern Ireland, as those who seek to and do represent them would point out, are very serious matters. The list was tucked away in the annexes to the document and, without being raised by me and other noble Lords, would simply have passed by. But as a result of raising it in Committee, and the Government responding, we now have a report where people will be able to see—I will use the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds—whether the York Street interchange is progressing. That is a serious matter, as all of us who have been to Northern Ireland know, but there are all sorts of concrete examples of various commitments made by the Government, so it is important.

The only thing I would add, because I spoke at length about the commitments that the British Government made, is that it might be worth putting on the record again that the Minister said that there was £2 billion-worth of government money committed to this, of which £600 million has so far been spent. So the people of Northern Ireland can look forward to a further £1.4 billion as being appropriate to the implementation of this deal, and that is really important.

I add that of course it was not just the British Government who made commitments. I will not read them all out because I was not trying to catch the Minister out. I was simply pointing out the commitments that have been made and negotiated to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland, which I thought was a really important point to make. Also within it, of course, are the commitments made by the Irish Government. There is a list of things that the Irish Government have said they are going to do to promote and deal with issues in Northern Ireland. Again, the report that the Minister has now agreed to publish will no doubt depend upon not only the various negotiations and discussions that the British Government have but those which the Northern Ireland Assembly has. A huge list of issues—again, I will not read them out—have been laid out there.

As I say, we support the legislative change that the Government have made with respect to the commencement of the Bill in Amendments 3 and 9. I say to noble Lords, however, that Amendment 6 on the laying of the report sounds very simple. It seems an amendment of no great consequence. It actually deals with the spending of billions of pounds of money in Northern Ireland on projects that will make a huge difference to the lives of ordinary people. It would show that the British and Irish Governments are delivering for the people of Northern Ireland but also that the Northern Ireland Assembly is doing so, as indeed the people who represent it do in this place or the other place, or indeed in Stormont. At a time when there is constitutional challenge and difficulty, it is also worth pointing out some of the positive things that legislators and Governments do to try to benefit the people of Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I am also extremely grateful to the Minister for making this concession on Amendment 9, following the amendment I tabled in Committee. I am also grateful that he has committed to giving a regular report on the implementation of the New Decade, New Approach agreement.

As the Minister knows, my honourable friend Stephen Farry MP tabled the same amendment in the House of Commons, and I am extremely grateful that the Minister has been prepared to listen to the arguments and employ common sense. This is perhaps something that could be usefully repeated by many of his ministerial colleagues in this House. I believe it demonstrates this Chamber’s usefulness in asking questions, and in revising and improving legislation. In the current political climate, waiting two months for the Bill to come into force would have risked leaving a political vacuum at this critical time. Allowing the Bill to be enacted at Royal Assent provides a greater level of stability and a political safety net. I am very grateful to the Minister.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Having warmly supported the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, at Committee stage, I welcome the fact that we are to have regular six-monthly reports on the commitments which the British Government gave in the New Decade, New Approach document. It is very important that this House is made fully aware of what our Government here at Westminster is doing, working closely with the devolved Executive and Assembly, to secure progress in Northern Ireland. These six-monthly statements will bring home to us the extent to which the British Government are, we hope, working successfully.

As for the Irish Republic, I would welcome—and I am sure the House would welcome—news of developments which assist both sides of the border in social and economic co-operation. That is what we all welcome. But I hope that nothing will be forthcoming that intrudes on British sovereignty over Northern Ireland; that matters above all. So I welcome very much the six-monthly reports—and I hope they will the subject of debate in this House from time to time—to show how progress is being made in Northern Ireland with the assistance of our Government in co-operation with the Executive and the Assembly.

--- Later in debate ---

I plead with noble Lords to restore the proper role of the Northern Ireland Assembly in this matter. The Government clearly now have three choices when it comes to the protocol. They are imminent choices, matters that have to be decided within a very short period. Either they will reach agreement, as we said earlier, although it is doubtful that that will happen, or they will take action on their own part, either alongside or apart from the instigation of Article 16 of the protocol—or, if neither of those happens, the resulting instability in the institutions will lead to their demise. Those are the only three options now open. I sincerely hope that the Government do not allow the third one to happen. This mechanism would provide a democratic route, in line with the Belfast agreement, to give people a political way forward and restore some kind of route map for people in Northern Ireland, whether they agree with the protocol or not, to have a vote on a cross-community basis.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, in response to the very measured intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Bew, I have two points. The first is that the Bill is about implementing some of the remaining elements of New Decade, New Approach, so we do not believe that it is the right place to make the changes set out in the amendments by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. Secondly, as the noble Lord said so powerfully, given that discussions are ongoing between the Government and the European Commission, the amendments would be deeply unhelpful to making progress at this time. For those two reasons, we strongly oppose the amendments.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, I have not heard anyone really deny the central point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey. I have heard some brilliant and enlightening speeches but even that gorgeous threnody of the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for past agreements, his great melody against it, did not defy the central point that cross-community consent was supposed to be the basis for every major decision. The pact that we made with the communities of Northern Ireland was that important constitutional issues of this kind would not be decided by simple majoritarianism but would require the consent of both communities. As the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, says, that was the basis on which the whole previous dispensation was overturned, so we cannot in conscience arbitrarily withhold that principle on this one issue. I will therefore support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on this issue, it is an important area that deserves greater clarification.

We all remember the period when Northern Ireland was deliberately left ungoverned and civil servants had the most difficult task of all: having to keep their departments ticking over with no real precedent for any guidance as to the extent of their decision-making powers. Some Permanent Secretaries went a little further than others. I remember speaking to one particular Permanent Secretary who indicated that there was a live debate continued among the Permanent Secretaries as to the extent of their powers, and at one stage whether they should be doing some of the things that they were doing in the absence of political guidance. There was certainly a difference in emphasis.

We need to understand, and perhaps the Minister could clarify, what in essence the difference will be between the sorts of decisions that civil servants were taking during the period that we all know about, the three-year interregnum where there were no Ministers, and the decisions that Ministers in these circumstances will be able to take. Could he, for instance, give me a concrete example of a decision that a Minister could take as a caretaker under this that a civil servant could not have taken? I would imagine that they are pretty limited.

There has been reference to carrying on with the decisions that have been made by the Executive in the run-up to caretaker Ministers being in place and that such Ministers should follow the trajectory of the Executive in decision-making going forward. Thinking of the current circumstances regarding the Budget, which appears not to have found agreement in Northern Ireland—there is apparently some limited agreement on the priorities within it, but not all departmental allocations—yet it is out for consultation. What would an interim Finance Minister be able to do in such circumstances? A certain amount of guidance would have been given to him in this situation, but not any kind of final decisions on allocations. So, again, it is not an entirely academic hypothesis that a Finance Minister could find himself in such a position as a caretaker with the Budget in this kind of condition.

I know these are difficult circumstances, and we are trying to find a balance between having no governance and leaving the Province in some kind of sensible situation when it comes to governance in the absence of a full Executive, but I would be grateful if the Minister could try to address those particular issues.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, has said, this is a probing amendment. I think we would all agree that the recent experience of over 1,000 days of political uncertainty when there was no Executive in Northern Ireland is not something that anyone would want repeated. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, have said, it put the civil servants in an incredibly difficult position. We very much hope that we will never again be in a situation where the Assembly is on the brink of collapse, but if such circumstances were to arise, it is important that there is as much stability and clarity on this as possible.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I would be grateful if the Minister could say a little more about how he sees this working in practice and, in particular, if he could say a little more about the requirements, as set out in New Decade, New Approach, for Ministers

“to act within well-defined limits”.

Can he explain what that would mean in practice?

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister, in his response at Second Reading, provided some clarity on this, indicating that there would be constraints and that cross-cutting issues would still have to go to the Executive for approval. But what happens if there is no First and Deputy First Minister in that period of interregnum? We are supposed to have collective responsibility. Issues are supposed to be taken on a partnership basis. I can remember many times when we did not necessarily have that partnership basis, so I agree with the amendment in the names of my noble friends Lady Smith and Lord Coaker.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, referred to the period between 2017 and 2020. That was a time when civil servants were placed in an invidious position, with limited powers, which piled frustration and anxiety on the wider community. Those civil servants, because of their limited powers, could only take certain decisions. I can well recall the decision in court on the incinerator north of Belfast, where the judge’s judgment indicated that the civil servants had probably acted outwith their powers in this instance.

The Minister was, as I still am, a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. He will recall that the common frameworks came into place in the post-Brexit situation to deal with policy divergence in certain areas devolved to the DAs. Quite a significant amount was devolved to Northern Ireland, but no decisions were taken on those common frameworks during that three-year period because there were no Ministers in place to deal with that—there was no Northern Ireland Executive. The Minister will recall that we in our committee had great difficulty in trying to pursue those common frameworks to their final degree of approval, or to the next stage, where they could be examined with a greater degree of scrutiny. That illustrates the case where there is a need for full-time Ministers.

However, in that period of interregnum, where a Minister’s authority is being extended because of the nature of the difficulties in the Executive, what authority do they have and can that be prescribed in this legislation? Perhaps the Minister could provide us with more clarity and more detail today. If need be, will the Government consider tabling an amendment on Report to deal with this issue and specify the areas of authority?

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[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I have made the point that this amendment to the agreement came into effect following St Andrews, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said, but it never had the support of those parties that negotiated the Belfast agreement in the first place. The purpose of the original model was to ensure that the necessary partnership between the parties that qualified for these positions was endorsed by the Assembly by joint resolution, giving public and political expression to the concept of a shared office of equals. The 2006 proposals have changed the character of subsequent elections. They have become sectarian headcounts. Some parties have, for example, argued that if they are not supported Sinn Féin would occupy the office of First Minister or vice versa, even though there is no legal difference between them.

My party believes that if the agreement is to be changed, as it is a multiparty agreement, proper discussions should precede new legislation. The Minister is well aware of my views on this, which have been held for many years. However, the evidence of recent years has shown that the change, while no doubt introduced by the Government of the day with the best of intentions, has held back the development of normal politics and resulted in ongoing stalemate and silo government. After 23 years, we are sitting here talking about the legislation before us, which is basically a patch-up job to prevent the institutions from collapsing completely. It clearly indicates that all is not well.

I do not intend to detain the Committee much longer, but I will make the point that what was done at that stage has not worked and we have wasted a further 15 years in failing to advance the cause of more normal arrangements and politics where things such as the economy, health and education are seriously debated and those debates make a difference. So far, that is not happening because people are forced into circling the waggons at each election. Even a cursory examination of election manifestos will clearly indicate that that is the direction of travel.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

I shall speak briefly in favour of Amendment 3, to which I have added my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, spelled out, it would provide for the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to be referred to as Joint First Ministers, reflecting their identical status, powers and responsibilities. I hesitate slightly to speak in too much detail on this amendment when there are quite so many noble Lords in the Room who were directly involved with the various negotiations, but it seems to me that the current terminology allows for a distortion of the reality. In reality, if the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are entirely equal, can the Minister say what would be the disadvantage of passing this amendment or similar amendments? My honourable friend Stephen Farry said during the debate in the House of Commons when it passed this Bill that making this change would

“take the heat out of the fairly … meaningless contrast that is made and creates huge tension in our election campaigns.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 159.]

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

I rise to support the amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Empey. In common with my noble friend, I was there on Good Friday 1998 when the Belfast agreement was finalised. My role at that time was chair of the Ulster Unionist Party. My noble friend Lord Empey was our chief negotiator. He deserves much of the credit for that incredible achievement almost a quarter of a century ago.

It was not a perfect document—far from it. Negotiators from all parties involved in the talks, as well as the two Governments, had endless battles over the finer details of the agreement. Arguably, the biggest battles were around the release of terrorist prisoners, a concession that most unionists hated—we in the Ulster Unionist Party still do. However, the agreement was a compromise. We all had to make concessions that we would rather not have made. It was a delicate balancing act.

Every aspect of the Belfast agreement was critical to the final outcome, including the procedure by which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were to be elected. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who I am pleased to see here today, and the late Seamus Mallon of the nationalist SDLP were the first holders of these posts. They were a joint ticket, elected by a cross-community vote of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That required the support of the majority of the MLAs—a majority of the designated unionist MLAs and of the designated nationalist MLAs. The endorsement of the Assembly, the elected representatives of the people, gave them their authority—the leaders of the unionists and the nationalists working together in the best interests of Northern Ireland as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, would openly acknowledge that every day was not harmonious, but at important and often tragic moments, such as the horrific deaths of the Quinn brothers and the Omagh bomb, both in the summer of 1998, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were able to stand shoulder to shoulder and speak on behalf of the country that they led.

However, all that changed following the St Andrews agreement in 2006. The Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act changed the process for appointing a First Minister and Deputy First Minister—and I ask noble Lords to note the word “appointed”, rather than “elected”. Since 2006, the First Minister had been nominated by the largest party overall and the Deputy First Minister by the largest party in the next largest community designation. The reasons for that change were entirely political. First, some MLAs wanted to be able to tell their supporters that they had no hand in electing a nationalist, whether they be from Sinn Féin/IRA or the SDLP, into office. Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has stated, they wanted to be able to proclaim at every subsequent Assembly election campaign that failing to support them would allow a nationalist to become First Minister, despite the positions of First Minister and Deputy First Minister being a shared office. I am sorry to say that both those reasons are rooted in sectarianism. That is shameful but it is the stark reality.

The Belfast agreement, which the DUP had no hand in and refused to support, was supposed to be a means of ending sectarianism, with the matter of the election of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister a key element of that. Unlike the St Andrews agreement, the Belfast agreement was endorsed by the people and should not have been changed without their consent. The amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend would restore a key element of the Belfast agreement and deserves your Lordships’ support.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, this is another probing amendment, which I hope the Minister will look on favourably. The amendment requires Ministers to consider the re-establishment of the Civic Forum for Northern Ireland as one of the issues

“that Ministers must have regard to under the Ministerial code.”

Noble Lords will be aware that the Civic Forum was provided for by strand 1 of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. At the time it comprised representatives of business, trade unions and the voluntary sector. I believe the voluntary sector was the largest part, with 18 members. There were members from agriculture and fisheries, arts and sports, business, the churches, community relations, culture, education, trade unions and also those who identified as victims of terrorism. It met 12 times in total between 2000 and 2002; then, of course, the institutions were suspended.

We raised this at Second Reading in looking at parts of the Good Friday agreement where, despite good intentions and agreements that were made, those agreements have not been fulfilled. That comes back to the point we were discussing earlier on New Decade, New Approach. It is difficult when agreement is reached but the implementation becomes somewhat elusive at some point, as I know noble Lords will be aware.

There is an opportunity, when people get disillusioned with politics—and Northern Ireland’s politics are perhaps more difficult than those anywhere else in the UK at times—for communities and the public to engage better with issues and debates, particularly when issues are cross-community or there are community differences, to have a full discussion and debate without any time constraints or legislation, just to look at things and talk things through. It is about engagement. When trust in politics is low—particularly, as we have seen, with Christmas parties and other issues—anything that engages people to understand and be part of the process, even slightly at arm’s length, can be an advantage.

When this was debated in the other place, my colleague Alex Davies-Jones said:

“The Good Friday agreement was about a new participative politics.”


The Minister will be aware that

“The argument the Women’s Coalition put forward for a civic forum was as an advisory second chamber”—

not unlike your Lordships’ House, but perhaps with even less authority than your Lordships’ House—

“designed to give the trade union movement and businesses, as well as the community and the women’s movement, a place in political policy making. The prize of that expertise and knowledge is a durable solution that keeps communities on board, one that I hope will be considered going forward.”—[Official Report, Commons, 26/10/21; col. 169.]

When it was debated in the other place, the Minister did not respond to this or give any answer. I am raising it today is in the hope that the Minister will have something more to say about this and any views the Government may have. I raise this as quite often in government thinking—I exclude the Minister from this entirely—Northern Ireland has been an afterthought. We saw it with Brexit; people did not fully realise the implications for Northern Ireland and it was never talked about during the whole Brexit debate, as we will probably hear about later. There is a need for leadership and proactive interest in Northern Ireland. Looking at issues such as reinstating the Civic Forum could be extremely beneficial. I really want to test where the Minister, on behalf of the Government, is on this one.

We will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and I do not want to pre-empt anything she will say. However, looking at her amendment, which I am sure she will speak to in a moment, there is quite an interesting debate. If you look at the current designations in the Assembly, there are 40 unionists, 39 nationalists and 11 other, and it is quite possible that in the future a different kind of balance could be returned. I want to listen to what she has to say on this, but the general question of designations, how they work and what that means for power-sharing is a worthwhile discussion for your Lordships to be having and indeed for the Minister to respond to. I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness has to say and to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 7 in my name is intended, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, just said, as a probing amendment designed to give the Committee the opportunity to discuss the issue of designations. As I said previously, perhaps in response to the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, I talk about some of these issues with a degree of hesitancy when there is quite so much experience in the Room. However, as someone who has been following Northern Ireland politics now for several years, I none the less feel that these are issues worthy of debate. I also declare an interest as a member of the Northern Ireland Alliance Party.

As noble Lords will know, under the Assembly’s standing orders one of the very first things Members of the Assembly are required to do is to enter in the roll a designation of identity: nationalist, unionist or other—my colleagues in the Alliance Party always have to put themselves in as “other”. Designations are required for the operation of cross-community votes in the Assembly. Cross-community support is required for a number of matters in the Assembly, including the election of the Speaker, changing the standing orders, and agreeing that a reserved matter should become a transferred matter and vice versa. However, the operation of cross-community votes means that the votes of some Assembly Members count twice, whereas others count only once. Under the current calculations, the votes of nationalist and unionist MLAs count twice. If an MLA is designated as other, their vote counts only in determining either the support of the majority of Members or the support of 60% of Members voting.

Why is that important? It is not just that there is an inherent unfairness in the system as I have described it but I believe there is also a broader principle at stake; that is, more than 20 years after the signing of the 1998 agreement, why are we continuing with a system that perpetuates divisions, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said, rather than creating a system that brings people together? In speaking to my friends in Northern Ireland, many of whom are political but some of whom are not, I am increasingly struck by the desire for a united society where everyone is treated equally, and yet the Assembly continues to represent institutionalised division through the outdated designation system. Northern Ireland has moved on considerably since the Good Friday/Belfast agreement was signed. Increasingly, a growing number of people do not want to be identified by community backgrounds. Northern Ireland society is becoming more mixed and more diverse. If we want seriously to increase participation in Northern Ireland politics, particularly from those with ethnic backgrounds, and make Northern Ireland politics more diverse, we should recognise that those who are not traditional unionists or nationalists are not second-class.

I am sure that the Minister will say that once again this is beyond the scope of the Bill. None the less, the purpose of this probing amendment is to ask the question: when do we think that politics in Northern Ireland can begin to normalise and move forward?

--- Later in debate ---

I will finish there. We have Northern Ireland Government commitments and so on, but there is a huge range of other things through this report. The Committee has debated, quite reasonably, very serious issues around the constitution and everyone’s points of view, as well as what should change or what might change. I thought it important to bring this amendment before the Committee today because, in among all that, there are very real commitments that the UK Parliament and this UK Government in Westminster have made to the people of Northern Ireland. Alongside all those constitutional issues and debates and discussions about how Northern Ireland should be governed and what should take place as a result of the protocol, there are huge financial commitments to deliver improvements to the ordinary people of Northern Ireland, and the people of Northern Ireland will want to hear how the Government will meet what they have put down in that agreement.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak extremely briefly on Amendment 9, which is tabled in my name and signed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Smith of Basildon. The purpose behind this amendment is really quite straightforward: it is to speed up the implementation of this Bill. It is now two years since New Decade, New Approach was signed, and yet we face growing political tensions ahead of the Assembly elections next year and threats from the DUP to withdraw its Ministers from the Executive as a result of tensions over the Northern Ireland protocol, as illustrated all too clearly in the earlier debate. This Bill would go some way towards managing such a crisis, were that to happen, yet we could potentially find ourselves in a situation where the Bill had been passed by the House of Commons and the House of Lords but, because of the two-month commencement period, the Act could not be deployed in order to help with such a potential crisis.

The Minister indicated at Second Reading that

“if the political situation changes dramatically, that is something that the Government will be prepared to look at during the passage of the Bill”.—[Official Report, 29/11/21; col. 1258.]

Can the Minister repeat that reassurance today? Surely avoiding a political vacuum at such a critical time is in everyone’s best interests. I also look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the very important points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, not least on the meeting of the board and whether that has happened.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise as a signatory to both amendments and to speak in support of them. To deal with Amendment 8, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has gone through the New Decade, New Approach agreement with a fine-toothed comb and highlighted all the various commitments and undertakings that were made back in January 2020 by two Governments and the parties to a greater or lesser degree.

In many ways, New Decade, New Approach could be characterised as a highly aspirational document. It contains lots of commitments but, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, where are the funding commitments to match and deliver those undertakings? For delivery, you need the money. While it could be provided out of the block grant, there are some elements that can be provided only directly from the Exchequer here in London.

However, proposed new subsection (2)(b) in Amendment 8 deals with

“what plans the Government has to bring forward further legislative proposals to implement the remainder of The New Decade, New Approach Deal.”

I look at what has not been addressed or fulfilled yet and, by and large, I would say that some of that is perhaps down to differences within the Executive Office between the First and Deputy First Ministers, as well as to the concentration of work on Covid, and now, obviously, we have the new variant.

There is a need for a bill of rights. We have been talking about it since 1998. Loads of meetings have been held in the Assembly on the bill of rights, we are still no further forward. We are told that the Northern Ireland Assembly Ad Hoc Committee on a Bill of Rights has received 45 briefings from experts since September 2020, and it recently held a public call for evidence which attracted 2,400 responses. The committee is due to report in February 2022. There is a panel of experts who are intended to assist the committee, but who have yet to be appointed. When will that happen? Promises were made about an age, goods, facilities and services Bill to prevent discrimination against people because of their age. Perhaps some of us might fall into that category at some stage, or perhaps we are already do.

Then there are the more fundamental issues: rights, language and identity proposals. Although that is within the remit of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, I do not see a lot of movement there. Can the Minister indicate whether the Government here at Westminster intend to legislate for them? I have already referred to the civic advisory panel, upon which there has been no significant movement. It was to be established within six months, which should have been June 2020, and we still have not heard about it. On the programme for government, New Decade, New Approach says:

“There will be a multi-year Programme for Government, underpinned by a multi-year budget and legislative programme.”


The public consultation on the draft programme for government outcomes framework closed on 22 March this year, some 14 months after New Decade, New Approach. A total of 416 responses were provided to the main consultation on the equality impact assessment and, in addition, there were 23 responses to an associated children and young people’s consultation. The feedback received demonstrates that there remains strong support for the outcomes-based approach and for the draft outcomes as consulted upon. The Executive hopes to be in a position to have a final revised version of the outcomes framework as soon as possible. That begs the question of whether the Northern Ireland Executive are currently working according to a programme for government or what are they working towards and how do they get or achieve that collective responsibility?

The amendment in my name and the names of my noble friends Lord Coaker and Lady Smith is timely. It seeks to ensure that the commitments that were to be undertaken by the UK Government and by the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly should be brought forward in an expeditious way for the benefit of all the community of Northern Ireland, properly costed, with a column indicating how much money, where it is coming from and when it will be spent.

On Amendment 9, in my name and the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, it is vital that we have commencement with Royal Assent. New Decade, New Approach is now 23 months old, and it is important that some fundamental issues in the Bill to do with the appointment of Ministers, elections and petitions of concern are put in place immediately.

For too long we have seen the misuse of the petition of concern. It was never meant to be a petition of veto but a petition that helped minorities and which understood and appreciated the issues they raised. It was not meant to be a petition of objection but was to be used as a special proofing procedure during which a special Assembly committee would hear specifically from the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. It was meant to be equality and human rights focused, and to be used as a proofing procedure to ensure that rights were upheld. It was never there to prevent rights being legislated for.

In that regard, it is important that the Government look kindly and benignly on both Amendments 8 and 9 —I urge the Minister to do this—and provide indications of acceptance in relation to them. That would allow the timely implementation of this Act to coincide with the end of the current Assembly in March, with Assembly elections on 5 or 6 May.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the Minister on his appointment to the Northern Ireland Office. He and I first met, I believe in the Red Lion on Whitehall, when I was a young researcher for the Liberal Democrats and he was working as a special adviser to the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Sir Patrick Mayhew. Our paths then crossed again in 2010 when we were two of the more mature—indeed, probably the two oldest—spads in the coalition Government. I wish him well on his appointment at what I am certain will be both a challenging and hugely important time for politics in Northern Ireland. I hope that this will turn out to be a very positive chapter in the book which we all hope he is going to write.

Last night I was re-watching the documentary about the Blair-Brown years, and I was reminded that this delicate peace process in Northern Ireland requires leadership, bravery and commitment. It needs to be nurtured and based on trust and respect among the political players. This is something I believe the Minister truly understands, with his many years of experience. He will also understand that, right now, there are very real fears that in recent months the elasticity of trust in Northern Ireland has been stretched to its absolute limit.

From these Benches, we support the Bill but regret that it has taken so long to get to this point—a point made so powerfully by the noble Lords, Lord Godson and Lord Rogan, this evening. It is now nearly two years since New Decade, New Approach was agreed by the majority of but—as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pointed out—not all of the parties in Northern Ireland. I accept that we have all faced unprecedented challenges with the global Covid pandemic but, none the less, those were two wasted years when so much could have been achieved to consolidate the peace process and move on from the past—two years when so much more could have been done to improve healthcare in Northern Ireland, strengthen the economy, move forwards on integrated education and begin to deal properly with the legacy of the past.

While the Bill is welcome in so far as it deals with the governance aspects of New Decade, New Approach, it does not yet cover legacy issues, as other noble Lords have said. It would be good to hear from the Minister in his concluding remarks when he expects the Government to publish their legislation on legacy. However, I should add, like the noble Lord, Lord Hain, that we on these Benches could not support the proposals as they currently stand.

In terms of the Bill before us this evening, I would like to concentrate my remaining short remarks on two aspects. The first relates to the commencement of the Bill, and here I agree with the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Ritchie. My Alliance Party colleague Stephen Farry MP tabled an amendment in the House of Commons which aimed to accelerate the enactment of the Bill. Given the current febrile political context, does the Minister agree that it would be desirable to have these new governance measures in place as soon as possible?

The second area is that of designations. It is now more than 20 years since the Good Friday/Belfast agreement was signed. Life has changed hugely since 1998. Back then, it was understandable that governance structures were based on having designations for nationalist and unionist camps. The group of people who considered themselves to be “others” or non-sectarian then was really very small. But despite the current political tensions there, a 20 year-old in Northern Ireland today will have a very different world-view from people of that age back in 1998.

If politics in Northern Ireland is to move on to the next stage of its development, it is not unreasonable to begin to ask questions about how and when progress can be made towards a normalisation of democratic politics there. This Government’s approach to Northern Ireland has all too frequently been characterised by carelessness, crises and reacting too late to events. I hope the Minister, with all his experience, will help to steer a more considered path, and I look forward to debating the Bill in more detail in the weeks to come.

Northern Ireland Political Situation

Baroness Suttie Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I welcome the Minister to his new post. I have had many dealings with him in the past and I look forward to continuing negotiations. I place on record my appreciation for his predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop. I think most folk would agree that we maintained the cross-party consensus, which in many ways was due to the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop. I therefore place on record our appreciation of his efforts.

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. We know that the Secretary of State, the Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney, his predecessor Charlie Flanagan, and all the Northern Irish parties have been working hard to try to narrow the gap on outstanding issues, notably on the question of the status of the Irish language and respect for all languages, culture and heritage in Northern Ireland. We welcome the fact that the Secretary of State did not come before Parliament today to announce that the shutters are coming down on the talks in Belfast.

People in Belfast and across Northern Ireland will have heard the Secretary of State’s contention that there remains “the prospect” of a deal this week. If that is achieved, then he will enjoy our full support in passing any necessary legislation to enable the Executive to reform and the Assembly to meet. But I think there will be frustration among many Northern Ireland citizens that a full six months after the Executive broke down and little more than a week before 12 July—the high point of the marching season—we remain at this impasse.

Without departing from the consensus which has existed for many years between the Government and ourselves, and indeed with the Liberals, some hard questions must now be asked about what more the Government can do to assist the parties in moving forward. It is encouraging that the Prime Minister picked up the phone on Friday night to the leaders of the DUP and Sinn Fein. But would the Minister comment on the suggestion—the point was made in the House of Commons, and I am sure it will be made here as well—that the Prime Minister might be more effective if she were to get on a plane to Belfast herself? History has shown that it has often required direct intervention from the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach to bridge the divide in Belfast. We have the examples of Tony Blair and Sir John Major, who made great efforts when things looked extremely difficult there. It remains unclear why there is a perception that the current run of Conservative Prime Ministers have proved reluctant to take personal responsibility to try and break the deadlock.

In fact, many might believe that the current Prime Minister has a particular duty to be more involved, as it was her decision to call an election which pushed the talks so close to the 12 July commemorations and led to her reliance on the Democratic Unionist Party that other parties have today cited as a factor in the talks. We agree with the Secretary of State that:

“This hiatus cannot simply continue for much longer”.


But I hope we might hear more from the Minister about how the Government intend to bring it to a positive end with the restoration of the Executive. If not greater hands-on engagement by the Prime Minster, as I and others have suggested, does he think there is a role for a new, independent, potentially international chair to come in with fresh eyes and a powerful mandate to support the efforts of the British and Irish Governments? Again I refer to the past, when that has also been an effective means of shifting things.

I note the warning by the Secretary of State that, if a way forward cannot be found, he will have to bring forward budgetary transfers to provide clarity and resources for the Northern Ireland Civil Service. That may well be necessary, and if so, again the Government will have the full co-operation of Her Majesty’s Official Opposition. But I am sure the Minister agrees that it is profoundly unsatisfactory that major decisions about public services and other measures continue to be taken by unelected civil servants, no matter how competent. On the matter of an appropriations Bill, the Minister will be aware that some will see that effectively as a measure of direct rule. I am sure this is a position that the Government wish to avoid, and we urge the Secretary of State to consider all alternatives before we take such a backwards step.

I welcome the decision that the Secretary of State has taken today to legislate for publication of all political loans and donations received by political parties on or after 1 July. That is an important step in normalising the politics of Northern Ireland. Do the Government intend that the thresholds that apply to the publication of donations in the rest of the UK will be those that are applied in Northern Ireland?

This House has played a terrific part in helping peace in Northern Ireland, and I am sure that everyone here will agree that Northern Ireland needs its Assembly and Executive up and running as soon as possible. There is no greater illustration of that than the Brexit negotiations, which we are entering with no real means of Northern Ireland’s voice—the voice of all its communities and traditions, and opinions on Brexit—being heard around the negotiating table. That, I am sure the Minister will agree, cannot be right. All of us, including on this side of the House, must redouble our efforts to see the Executive, and with it the voice of Northern Ireland, strengthened and restored.

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and welcome him to his new role—he is certainly starting at an interesting and challenging time for Northern Ireland. I also place on record my tribute to his predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop. Given the importance of the issue, however, I wonder why this was not a Prime Ministerial Statement today.

When we last discussed these issues, just before the election, there was a degree of optimism that genuine progress could be made. Indeed, for a time last week, it appeared that good progress was being made. However, with the passing of Thursday’s deadline, and even with the short continuation of talks over the weekend, we once again find ourselves in an impasse. This is an extremely disappointing development, and it is frustrating to watch from here the way in which the two largest parties in Northern Ireland appear to have backed themselves into a corner when there are undoubtedly creative solutions to be found.

The increase in turnout of some 10.6% between the 2016 and 2017 Assembly elections demonstrates the strong commitment of the people of Northern Ireland to devolved government, and I can well understand the frustration of ordinary people in Northern Ireland at this latest setback.

As the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has already said, there has been no ministerial direction in the devolved departments for a number of months. Decisions on how to allocate budgets are being missed, and all this has a direct impact on public services and jobs. Can the Minister give an indication of how today’s Statement will help to change the dynamics in the talks process? As well as the damage that is being done to Northern Ireland’s economy and public services, it is vital at this time for Northern Ireland to have its own voice in the Brexit negotiations. Can the Minister tell us who speaks for Northern Ireland on Brexit?

The confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP in Westminster has understandably caused concern about how the Government can fulfil their role in independently mediating the Belfast Good Friday agreement. Can the Minister explain how they will demonstrate the “rigorous impartiality” needed, as set out in the Good Friday agreement?

Bringing together my last two points, can he tell us how the voices of all parties in Northern Ireland—including those which won seats in the Assembly in March but do not sit on the Government’s co-ordinating committee—will have their voices heard on the vital issues of governance of Northern Ireland and of the Brexit negotiations?

Although I welcome the introduction of legislation on party donations, does the Minister agree that for the legislation to have the desired effect of returning confidence to the party-political process in Northern Ireland, it should be backdated to 2014? Finally, can the Minister say whether he believes that this is a genuine postponement, or are we just delaying the inevitable?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their contributions and their kind words of welcome. I also very much endorse what they said about my noble friend Lord Dunlop, who has given great service in this role and continues to be a source of very valuable information and advice. I am most grateful to him.

To take up some of the points made by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, first, I am most grateful for the endorsement of the bipartisan approach that we seek, which I am sure extends to the Liberal Democrats as well, in relation to the Belfast agreement. We are wedded to that, as indeed everybody in Northern Ireland seems to be—it is just about ensuring that we complete the last phase of these discussions so that we can take things forward. The issues that remain to be resolved are relatively narrow, and I can understand, and indeed share, the general frustration felt by the Front Benches. I am sure it is widely felt. The Secretary of State has worked tirelessly to seek an agreement, and the issues are becoming tighter and narrower. There is the prospect of an agreement, and I can certainly confirm that the shutters are not coming down in any way at all. We are very much wedded to getting a deal, and there is the prospect of one following the approach that we take.

The suggestion is made of the greater involvement of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has been closely involved; she spoke to the five parties in Northern Ireland, to which I think the noble Baroness was referring, as recently as Friday. Talks with the two leaders, Michelle O’Neill and Arlene Foster, continued on Saturday, and she has spoken to the Taoiseach on a number of occasions as well, so those discussions are going on. I caution about always rushing for the involvement of the Prime Minister because that has not always paid dividends in Northern Ireland and does not necessarily help. As I say, the issues are being driven forward, and it is for the two main parties to hammer out the deal between them.

On the noble Baroness’s question about the involvement of the other parties, I should say that they have been having their discussions as well. At the moment the main focus has of course been on the discussions between the two main parties, as you would expect, but the others have been involved in discussions of their own because, once an agreement is made, which I certainly hope and believe will be the case, the deal then has to be completed with their involvement.

I thank noble Lords for their indications of support for the donations and loans Bill that will be forthcoming. Retrospective legislation is not always wise, let us say, so it will be carried forward from the date of announcement, which I think is the usual way of these things. As I say, though, I thank noble Lords for their general welcome.

I think I have picked up the main points. I welcome noble Lords’ continuing support, and of course we will update the House on the progress of the discussions, which are at a crucial and, we hope, successful stage.