Police Integrity

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her general welcome for this Statement. I know that in another place similar support was given to the Home Secretary’s Statement. This is good news. I shall start with the last point made by the noble Baroness, which was on rebranding. Do we want a new body? I do not think that is necessary. The IPCC has good leadership under Dame Anne Owers and it has a sense of direction, which is now supported by the Government through this Statement. Although I cannot anticipate what may be in future Queen’s Speeches, I am fairly confident that legislation on this matter will not be long delayed. Indeed the Statement drew attention to that.

The IPCC is currently engaged in a lot of extremely serious investigations. The Statement referred to them as probably lying at the heart of the realisation that we need to look afresh at how we investigate the police, and at what new framework we should establish. This is the Government’s response. We believe in beefing up not only the powers but the resources of the IPCC. The noble Baroness asked where those resources were coming from and whether there was any fresh government money. The Statement rightly said that they were coming from the existing budgets of police forces—certainly in the main that will be the case. However, the matter will be discussed with each police force.

A Statement such as this is clearly indicative rather than absolutist. Certainly we will debate the issues that it raises over the next few months. However, it is important, when the Government have something to say on an issue as important as this, that they demonstrate to the House, through the way they present the issues involved, their direction of travel. That was the purpose of the Statement today.

The noble Baroness asked a large number of questions. There was a radio programme called “20 Questions”. I did not count the noble Baroness’s but I felt that she asked a fair number. I will do my best to answer them, but she very kindly said that I might write to her. It might help if I wrote on some of these matters and put a copy in the Library of the House.

The noble Baroness asked how public the professional register would be. It will be a public document. It is intended that organisations such as the Security Industry Authority and private security firms will be able to take note of these matters. It will not be just for police officers to note who has been in effect deregistered from the police service as a result of misconduct.

The parallel organisation to the IPCC is the College of Policing. With its code of ethics, it will provide the framework in which the new sense of purpose about integrity can be addressed. The noble Baroness asked whether it would cover matters such as the identity of children. As she knows, that is being investigated by Chief Constable Creedon at the moment, and he will report on the full implications. That is just the sort of issue at which I expect a code of Essex—sorry, ethics—to look. I apologise for that slip of the tongue.

The noble Baroness also asked how one would define “serious” and “sensitive”. One tends to know what is serious and sensitive when it turns up. This will be about the relationship between the IPCC and individual police forces. Individual forces have just as great an interest in making sure that the public are supportive of them and perceive that the integrity of the police is based very locally within each police force.

I have a few further points to make. The list is designed to ensure that all those who are dismissed as a result of misconduct proceedings, or would have been dismissed had they remained in service, cannot find employment in another force. That is the principal purpose behind it. They are struck off from being a police officer in the future. We envisage that the list will be used by other employers—I have mentioned employers in the security industry—to consider whether or not to employ such dismissed officers.

I hope that the noble Baroness will allow me to write to her on the other questions which I have not addressed, and I hope that I have assisted the House in giving some sense of the thinking that lies behind the Statement.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, before the clerk starts the clock for Back-Bench contributions, in the interests of ensuring that as many noble Lords as wish to do so are able to contribute in the 20 minutes which now follow, perhaps I may remind the House that this is an opportunity to put brief questions.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I must remind noble Lords that this is a Statement, not a debate.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is of course very important to keep oneself well informed, even if it is just to inform one of where people are going wrong. This issue is a very serious one. I do not think there is any dispute about the fact that crime figures are falling. There are matters of definition, which I think it is going to be in everyone’s interests to get tidied up, but the allegation that these figures are being manipulated is a very serious one. Unfortunately, I cannot attend the meeting which the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who is not in his place at the moment, has called for this evening. I would like to have gone to it but I am on duty in the Chamber. However, I have asked an official to attend because it is very important that the Home Office follows these arguments and listens to what is being said.

North Wales Abuse Allegations

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her response to the grave Statement that we have had to make to the House today and for her general welcome for the way in which the Government are responding promptly to the issue. I agree with her that perhaps the most serious issue is whether there has been institutional blindness, if one can put it like that. I absolutely agree that this must be the key to the agenda going forward in order to make sure that the interests of victims are properly recognised, that the police prosecute without fear or favour, and that justice is seen to be done.

The noble Baroness asked whether there would be restrictions on these investigations. Police investigations are police investigations and they go wherever the evidence takes them. She asked, too, about the funding. The Government understand that there will be resource pressures because these investigations will involve all of the authorities engaged in them in additional work. The Home Office will encourage those organisations to apply to it so that any extra additional costs can be considered as part of the funding provided to them by the Home Office.

The thrust of the noble Baroness’s questions was whether it would be better to wait and set up an overarching inquiry in order that the lessons may be learnt. I do not believe that that is the right approach. I believe that these allegations demand immediate investigations. The lessons that will be learnt by these investigations may well require a comprehensive review of child protection in this country—that is a reasonable conclusion to come to—but I do not believe that the House would thank us if we stood by and delayed the investigations involved. I hope that I have the support of the noble Baroness in that. If I have misunderstood the noble Baroness, I apologise. I think the Government are on the right track here and doing what the House would wish of them.

On the question of organisational change and whether it will impede or assist these investigations, as the noble Baroness said, this issue has been debated over time and in all ways. All I can say is that Keith Bristow will be heading up an organisation which has considerable resources available to it through the National Crime Agency. These bodies will be there to do their task, to assist him to achieve our objective of better child protection for all young people.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, perhaps I may assist the many noble Lords who I am sure will want to contribute today by reminding them that the Companion advises that, in order that as many people as possible are able to contribute, today is an opportunity for brief comments and questions only.

Extradition

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank the noble Baroness, who has been very generous in her welcome for this Statement. Indeed, I welcome her support on a number of the issues that she refers to. Perhaps I can help her on those specific questions that she asked me. The latest medical report that the Home Secretary received, which enabled her to come to this decision, was a review of other reports. It was not a report on or an examination of Mr McKinnon but a fresh report on the evidence that was available to the Home Secretary. I hope that that helps the noble Baroness.

I am very grateful on a number of issues. The Baker review recognised that one of the most difficult issues facing Governments on extradition was the delay in the process. Much of what the Government are seeking to do with the new arrangements on extradition that we intend to negotiate and put into place is meant to reduce delay. On the forum bar, for example, we know that it is going to be a different arrangement from that laid down in the 2006 Act, which was introduced by the previous Government but actually promoted by opposition Benches at the time. Clearly, that will not be fit for purpose for what we now see as the important issue of ensuring that the process is both fair and speedy. If I may say so, it would be good—I know that the Home Secretary welcomed this in the other place—to have cross-party co-operation on the construction of new arrangements for the forum bar.

The question of cybercrime was also raised in another place. I reassure the House that the Government are working with other countries on cybercrime; it is an international crime and clearly fits in closely with issues of extradition and the forum for the hearing of cases so that justice can be done and this insidious crime can be dealt with properly, in both the national and international interest.

On the European arrest warrant, yes, there is an ongoing review, as the noble Baroness implied. There are aspects of that warrant that are extremely useful, and none of us in government wishes to suggest otherwise. However, the previous Government made arrangements whereby we could deal with some of these matters by a withdrawal from the pre-Lisbon sections involving these things to enable us to renegotiate the details. We intend to do that in parallel with a number of other countries that share these concerns, and we do not see this as being a negative process at all. It is about making the European arrest warrant much more fit for purpose, introducing some proportionality into the issue, trying to avoid triviality and ensuring that there is no unnecessary delay in the process.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the clerk for not starting the Clock so I do not eat into any of the precious time available to noble Lords on the Statement today. I know that there will be great demand to contribute today and that my noble friend will want to respond to as many noble Lords as possible. Because of that, I am sure that the House will find helpful if I remind noble Lords how the Companion guides us on Statements. The point that it makes is that this is an occasion for brief comments and questions.