Syria: Foreign Affairs Committee Report

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Thursday 26th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I can tell him and other noble Lords that there are clearly differences between some of those involved in the Vienna talks—I mentioned that Russia is involved and there are some differences between us—but on 14 November they agreed a timeframe for political negotiations to begin by the end of the year, for a transitional government to be in place within six months and for a new constitution and free and fair elections within 18 months. The key thing everybody is signed up to is that a Government in Syria—like a Government in Iraq or, indeed, anywhere—must govern for all the people and provide the stability that is necessary for all those who live there.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

May I tell my noble friend how impressed I am by the approach the Government have taken in response to the Foreign Affairs Committee report? The thoroughness is, I have to say, in stark contrast to the previous occasion, at the time of the chemical weapons concerns, when bombing was suggested. Then, we were to debate the issue on Thursday and bomb on Friday. I have listened to the exchanges in the Commons, and the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, Crispin Blunt, speaking in a personal capacity, has indicated that he believes the Government have answered the questions that the committee very sensibly asked.

There is one weakness in the Government’s position, which is inevitable. Arguments are centring on the existence and substantial nature of the ground troops, but the reality is that we have to deal with where we are. The hope is that if there is an effective air campaign, co-ordinated with the existing total allied commitment, we may see rather more troops appearing on the ground than are presently willing to show themselves.

Any of us who have had any dealings with tackling the challenges of terrorism know that at the back of it all is money. What I welcome in the allies’ recent efforts is the attack on the oil supplies—the source of income. There is no doubt that ISIL has been very well funded up to now. Resources; weapons production; weapons support, enabling its people to travel round and cause terrorist outrages in various places—all that takes money. I welcome the mention in the Statement of the steps now being taken, particularly accurate targeting in the air campaign, to tackle the economic forces that are keeping ISIL alive. I support that very much.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to my noble friend for providing us with an update on how the Statement is being welcomed in the other place. We estimate that there is a ground force of about 70,000 troops in Syria who are fighting ISIL, and who would make up a moderate opposition to Assad. These troops are having some success. They have regained territory, and where they have done so they are able to administer those areas. We are already providing non-military support, trying to maintain the civic society in Syria which is so important to long-term stability. My noble friend is absolutely right about the attacks on the economic resources that ISIL relies on—that is where we have to continue to focus a lot of our energy.

G20 and the Paris Attacks

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord argued in his first point that finding a political solution in Syria would not render our efforts to destroy ISIL redundant. I agree; he is absolutely right. On his question about those Britons who have left the UK, gone to Syria and elsewhere and then returned, the measures that we introduced in the Counter-terrorism and Security Act, which was passed by Parliament earlier this year, were designed specifically to address this kind of threat.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly commend the Prime Minister’s Statement that my noble friend has repeated on the response to the terrible tragedy and outrage in Paris.

There is an aspect of the Statement that I regret. It rightly says that, recognising the threats that we face, intelligence is a crucial first line of defence for this country—one or two breakdowns in that respect may have contributed to the disasters in Paris. It also says that we will do all that we can to support the intelligence and security services. If I may make one small point, I do not think this Parliament has done that. For more than two years, we have been trying to consider the gaps that exist in our armoury of what is available to our intelligence services to protect our country. Two weeks ago in this House I asked a question about the Investigatory Powers Bill, pointing out that we are now embarked on a pretty leisurely process which, if we are lucky, will get those powers into effect by next September or October. I wondered at that time what events might happen between now and then. I am all too sorry that within two weeks that has proved to be the case.

I have one constructive suggestion. Following on from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, I do not think it realistic to take the whole of this huge Investigatory Powers Bill through on some accelerated process, but there is one element in it that the Home Secretary has indicated is the one additional power that she wants: the retention of internet communications data, which might enable us to identify some of the links that obviously existed in the attack in Paris and the way that it was organised. I suggest that, by discussions through all the usual channels, this particular element in the Bill is taken out and dealt with by an Order in Council and emergency regulations, with a sunset clause, so that it is operational while the normal parliamentary procedures for the Investigatory Powers Bill can continue in the way proposed by the Government without the liability that we do not yet have the crucial power that the Home Secretary has identified as being essential.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On my noble friend’s first point about the security services and intelligence being our first line of defence in this country, I agree that they are the first line of defence and do magnificent service for this country. Indeed, I think that the UK’s intelligence services are very much seen as the best in the world.

I am not sure that I agree with him that we have not supported them in the way that they need in order to do their work. We have ensured that they have all the funding and additional resources that they need, and I am sure that the House will be familiar with the range of different announcements that the Government have made, as I have already referred to, in the past few days.

We will keep the Investigatory Powers Bill under review. If there is anything in the draft Bill which the security services need now to do their work but do not have, we will certainly reconsider our approach. However, my noble friend must accept that the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, which we passed in July, brought into force the additional powers which the security services need, but they expire at the end of next year. The Investigatory Powers Bill will make sure that we enshrine and protect those powers for the future. It is about future-proofing powers, rather than giving new ones.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Monday 19th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord makes a powerful point. I say in reply to him that we have already given refuge to 5,000 people from Syria over the past few years. We are committed to supporting more people who are based in those refugee camps, and we think that that is the right way for us to proceed. If we were to participate in the relocation scheme that the rest of Europe is following, it would not ultimately benefit people who need to be supported in places close to their home countries so that ultimately they can return. We must not forget that only about 4% of those who have had to flee are actually here in Europe; there are millions more in need of support who have not yet made it to Europe. It is important that we do a lot of things and that our effort is comprehensive, and that is what the Prime Minister is pursuing.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

The Statement covers three critical issues but I shall address the overriding and urgent one that is likely to arise. If an attack develops on Aleppo, as is reported in the press, we are going to see millions more refugees added to the enormous number that are already involved. Does this not reinforce the importance not only of the visit of Chancellor Merkel to Turkey but also of the Prime Minister’s position that, whatever is done about accepting refugees into this country and other countries in Europe, the only way to save millions of people this coming winter will be the effectiveness of providing safe, secure camps and accommodation immediately in the area, saving them the need to travel and the enormous danger that will be involved? In that regard, I particularly welcome the announcement of the United Kingdom’s contribution to the World Food Programme. I trust that resources we will be available to feed the millions concerned during this coming winter.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend makes some important points. As I have already said, we have applied our effort where we think we should help people—at the point of need—in a way that means that the countries they are fleeing to are able to sustain that support. We very much support what is happening in terms of a plan with Turkey. It is also worth adding that in November there will be the Valletta summit between European and African countries to look at what more can be done to prevent more people fleeing from that part of the world. We have to try to ensure that we support people where they are most in need of that support—that is, before they make these dreadful and treacherous crossings.

G7

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Prime Minister and the other European leaders were absolutely united in their view on sanctions on Russia, certainly in the course of discussions at the G7 over the last few days. From the preliminary discussions leading into the next European Council meeting, I gather that there is no question of any doubt on that, but it is something that we have to keep pressing. We have talked about this before. We all have to hold together on this, because it is so vital. Russia must not see any weakness in our agreement in the West and in Europe on sanctions remaining in place.

On the noble Lord’s question about Crimea and whether it has been written off, I would answer, “Absolutely nothing of the kind”. We remain very clear that what Russia did in that area was illegal and there is no question that this would in any way be ignored or forgotten.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Looking at this Statement and the seriousness of some of the global issues that it mentions such as global health and climate change, is there any movement at all to suggest in discussions involving the major countries of the world that China might have a contribution to make? There are international global interests in so many of these very serious issues.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not think that my noble friend is suggesting that we are at the point where we might extend the G7 to include China. But he is right about China being so important to the future prosperity and security of the world at large. Again, this is an area where we have been very much in the forefront in recognising the growing importance of China. Before the general election, the UK was the first G7 country to join the AIIB, which is the new Chinese version of the World Bank. Because of our leadership there, other G7 countries have joined that bank.

Implications of Devolution for England

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, we in this House are contributing to legislation now on an equal footing regardless of where we are from. We do not represent a particular part of the country. I come from Beeston and am very proud of that, but I do not represent Beeston. I am here as a United Kingdom Peer, as is the case for all of us.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Would my noble friend pay particular attention to the intervention of my noble friend Lord Lang, who I think spoke extremely wise words on this matter? I thought that the most striking point of the Statement was the extraordinary contrast between the long list of Labour leaders of major boroughs and major cities in this country who take an entirely different view, as far as I can see, from the unfortunate position of the Opposition.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that point because he is quite right. It was very welcome to see just how many Labour leaders of local authorities within England wanted to contribute to this process. We are grateful to them and we hope that the Labour leadership will take its lead from them.

Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament Report: Fusilier Lee Rigby

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is right to say that the leaking by Snowden and the reporting of his leaks have had a serious effect on intelligence gathering. That is unquestionable. There is evidence that some of the terrorists and terrorist groups, in the light of that knowledge, are now moving their exchanges to different places, where the intelligence services are not operating, because they now know where they do and where they do not.

As far as introducing the Communications Data Bill is concerned, in the summer we introduced the emergency legislation which addressed some gaps there. The counterterrorism Bill that will be introduced tomorrow will close another gap. This is an area where I believe we will continue to have to keep making progress. We are not ready to move as far as the noble Lord suggests at this moment. To be successful in introducing a Communications Data Bill, we will need a consensus, and we do not have that yet.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that this report, which I think is the most substantial one I have seen from the ISC, marks a very important stage in the development of its role of parliamentary oversight of the intelligence agencies? I hope that, on reading it, one will be able to reinforce one’s confidence in the capabilities of that committee. It is very important to this country that it carries high credibility in the world and among our people generally.

Having said that, the Prime Minister claims in his Statement that the committee had unprecedented access to detail that might not previously have been available to such an inquiry. Certainly, it seems to hold the world record for asterisks, deletions and redactions, indicating the amount of totally secret information that was available to the committee. Will my noble friend confirm that the report coincides with the announcement by the Home Secretary of the further Bill that will be introduced tomorrow—in the Commons, I assume. Will the government response be available to this House before we approach Second Reading, as I understand there is to be an accelerated procedure? Can she give any indication of when she would expect the Bill to come to this House? There is no question that it raises extraordinarily difficult issues. As the noble Lord, Lord West, indicated, the challenges faced by the intelligence and security agencies are massive and growing enormously. Some of the challenges will be revealed in the government response and we need the opportunity to consider it very carefully in this House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is a former chairman of the ISC and I pay tribute to his knowledge and assessment of the committee’s report published today. I share his view that it is a very substantial and unprecedented piece of work on the part of the committee. It shows that we were right to put the ISC on a stronger footing through the Justice and Security Act. The redactions in the report are in line with the process in that Act for redacting material and we have very much followed that process. I cannot confirm that the Government’s detailed response to today’s report will be available before Second Reading as I do not yet have the date when we will respond or, indeed, when the Bill will be introduced in your Lordships’ House. However, I will reflect on the point that my noble friend makes.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, I cannot stress enough how much the international community is united in its call for a swift, transparent and credible investigation into the incident in Ukraine. We understand that there were two black boxes on board the aircraft and are aware of reports that one of those black boxes has now been found. We urge that this should be passed on to the International Civil Aviation Organization at the earliest opportunity. It is so important that all the proper and relevant authorities are able to do their work in response to this situation.

As to the noble Baroness’s question about Gaza and Israel, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, he was clear during his call last night to Prime Minister Netanyahu that he should do everything to avoid civilian casualties, exercise restraint and help find ways to bring that situation to an end.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, while I join my noble friend in offering the deepest condolences to all those who have suffered from this appalling outrage with the Malaysian airliner, there was one sentence in her Statement that I found difficult to accept. It was when the Statement said:

“It is unlikely that even the separatists wanted this to happen”.

This is a disaster for everybody concerned and it has obviously made the position of President Putin even more difficult than it was before. The separatists are now pilloried right across the world and, if they are responsible for this, have done their own cause enormous damage as well.

This has happened against a background of bombing of this area by the Ukrainian air force and of the separatists shooting down some aircraft in self-defence. It is important to recognise the situation in which this has happened. I say in passing that I find it extraordinary that the European organisation responsible for flight safety gave airlines permission to fly over this area. Having said that, two weeks ago, while on their way to the World Cup, Angela Merkel and President Putin called for Ukraine and the separatists to stop fighting and start talking. That is the background against which this has happened. There must be a cessation of violence and an opportunity must be given for an independent inspection of what has happened. Efforts must be made at the earliest possible opportunity to get constructive talks on the tragedy that has followed this episode of violence.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the Statement says, even the separatists did not want to target a commercial airliner: that is the point we are trying to get at. It is not a question of evidence being gathered to show that there was that intent; it is about the aircraft that they were focusing on. As regards my noble friend’s point about the fly zone above this area, it is important to note that the controls that were in place extended to a specific height, and that this commercial airliner was above the height determined to be safe. However, those controls have now been extended and there is a complete lockdown of the whole area at any height. My noble friend rightly said that the fighting needs to stop and talking needs to start. We are very clear that Russia needs to take steps to de-escalate the action in Ukraine. We need to ensure movement to bring security to Ukraine very soon.

Olympic Games: Security

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord King of Bridgwater

Thursday 12th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I obviously share the noble Baroness’s concern and consideration for the events of 1972 and their associated history. As to her question about accommodation, while I do not have any specific information today, I am quite confident from the briefings that I have received that arrangements for the athletes are comprehensive and that they will receive all the support and facilities they need to make their stay here successful from their own individual point of view, comfortable and secure. We all hope that they will enjoy their experience in London, which I am sure they will.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

In thanking my noble friend for repeating the Statement, I immediately declare an interest because I am a director of ExCeL, where a significant number of Olympic events will take place. The Statement the Minister has made today comes as no surprise to anybody who has been trying to organise and see that there is effective security. I say very simply, and as a strong supporter of this Government, that the Home Office must sharpen up its communications with LOCOG and G4S. A number of people identified for some time the scale of the challenge for G4S in recruiting that number of people who had to be cleared, trained and available. It was a massive undertaking and warnings were clearly given.

Having said that, and wearing another hat, I welcome the fact that troops are to be available. The Minister rightly distinguished between the numbers when the noble Baroness raised the question: the Typhoons and HMS “Ocean” and the famous surface-to-air missiles on the roofs of flats are one lot, and then there are the unarmed, venue security searching parties who will do us nothing but credit. A lot of visitors to our country will meet some of our servicemen and find out what excellent ambassadors they are for our Armed Forces. I am delighted that they are to be offered these free tickets, which is only right.

We still face a major challenge here. The remaining people needed have to be properly trained and checked. I hear one or two very worrying stories about that. Is it essential that they can all speak English? I hope that that is a requirement. There have been one or two stories about that which do not seem very satisfactory. The challenge is just starting now. Having recruited all these people who have agreed to serve for G4S under temporary contracts, they have to turn up on time and they must be there early in the morning, well ahead of the opening of the venues so that they are ready to do their work. They will have to face the challenges of transport in London at that time to get to work. The simple answer is that there needs to be not just the numbers that have been announced today—if those are the numbers that have been precisely calculated of the military support—but also a further strategic reserve of people for the accidents and problems that may well arise with the difficulty of making sure that these temporary people working for G4S are there on time and doing their job. We all wish the Olympics well. It is an amazingly big challenge. However, we need to sharpen up communications and build in now contingency reserves for that.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I share with my noble friend the warm words of tribute he paid to our Armed Forces. I agree with him that the sight of our Armed Forces in London during the Olympic Games, the work that they will do, and that they will be part of the security effort for the Games—it has always been planned that they would be—will mean they are an important element of the welcoming tone, nature and discipline and the kind of effort and efficiency that are necessary.

On my noble friend’s points about the Home Office, of course I will relay back to the department his comments about the need for improved communication. There is always room for people to improve in that area. However, as I have said before, this is a contract between LOCOG and G4S. LOCOG is the commissioning body with regard to the contract. The Home Office has been very closely monitoring the way in which it has progressed and, because we have been doing that and liaising closely with other government departments, we have been able to act, taking the necessary decision that was made yesterday.

On the effectiveness of those who have been recruited, G4S has rigorous selection processes. My noble friend is absolutely right that everybody needs the right skills to do the job. If they are in a role that has contact with the public, they must be able to communicate with them, which of course requires them to speak English.