Pedicabs (London) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Monday 11th December 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, as the Committee knows, I am supportive of this Bill because it brings in provision for the regulation of pedicabs. I will leave it to my noble friend the Minister to respond on why it is not possible to include e-scooters and e-bikes; I guess that it is probably because the Bill is called the Pedicabs (London) Bill and the Government would not be able to cover them in it. However, I share a lot of the concerns raised about e-scooters and e-bikes. Although I did not say anything in support of those who made these points at Second Reading, that was probably because this issue started getting raised after I spoke. I am pleased that we have pedicabs legislation, which has always been my focus.

I want to raise e-scooters with my noble friend. Because there has been no legislation, as has been pointed out, I am really alarmed that the Government are extending their trial of rental e-scooters for a further two years, to May 2026. What really concerns me about this—I have raised it on several occasions in different contexts and debates—is that, at the moment, it is illegal for private e-scooters to be on our roads outside those rental schemes. The longer this trial goes on, the more the take-up increases. I do not think I have ever seen anyone tackled. As I have said before in this Room, I have even witnessed somebody come on to the Parliamentary Estate on an e-scooter, past the policemen on the gate, and not be challenged at all. When I asked a police officer on the gate, “Why haven’t you stopped that person riding a vehicle that’s not permitted on the road?”, they shrugged their shoulders at me.

If this is to continue, something has to be done about enforcement around these vehicles. They cause so much distress to people, as has been described, and are dangerous because of the batteries used. It is not good enough for a lack of parliamentary time to be raised as an excuse when the use of them, in a legal fashion, is growing all the time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, by keeping on extending the trials, the Government are in effect implicitly making e-scooters legal because it will be impossible for them at some point to say, “We’re going to stop the trials. This is now an illegal activity”. In essence, it is a nod and a wink to say that it is okay to run them. They have done the evaluation so why do they need more trials? It is difficult to see how this is going to come to a satisfactory ending.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

I agree. Their legal use is being made possible by stealth, basically. That is why people continue to use them with impunity. They know—or, presumably, they assume—that nobody will bother to challenge them in the first place.

House of Lords: Composition

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Tuesday 24th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Government take seriously their responsibility to consult people about serious and important matters of policy, and that includes consulting Members of your Lordships’ House. I am sad to hear what the noble Lord said but this is usually something that we do very well indeed.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have the figures here. Can the noble Baroness confirm that we have almost as many Members whose main residence is overseas as we do Members who come from the east Midlands? Is it not time for a moratorium on the appointment of new Peers from London and the south-east so that we can rebalance the membership? Come to think of it, should we not have a moratorium on all appointments? Can she confirm that it is her and the Prime Minister’s intention to pack her Benches with yet more Conservative Peers in the next few weeks?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

New appointments are a matter for the Prime Minister and I am not going to speculate on that. However, this is more complex than just a question of where we come from and where we live. One interesting thing in the data from which the noble Lord is quoting is that there are more Labour Peers than Conservative Peers with London addresses. As an example, I live in London but am from Beeston, just outside Nottingham. Although I do not represent Beeston, I like to think that I bring some knowledge and experience of where I was born and brought up, and I hope that that adds to my contributions in this House.

House of Lords: Strathclyde Review

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the comments made by Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen on 3 November (HL Deb, col. 1516), how Lord Strathclyde and his review team will take account of the views of Members of the House of Lords.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde has written to the Members of both Houses inviting them to submit their views. A number of Peers from around the House have already made submissions to his review or shared their views with him in person. I have no doubt that he will consider carefully all representations from Members of this House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader for that reply. Can she assure me that, when the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has reported, there will be an opportunity for the House to debate the contents of the report before the Government come to any conclusions? Can she also say whether, in view of the 1994 resolution of this House that we have an unfettered right to vote on secondary legislation, which was confirmed by the Joint Select Committee on Conventions, if the noble Lord proposes reducing the powers of this House, she will ensure that a further Joint Select Committee of both Houses is established to consider the consequences both for this House and the other place?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly do not want to pre-empt my noble friend’s conclusions when he comes forward with his response to the Prime Minister, but it is worth me reminding the House that he is looking into the constitutional issues that were raised by the proceedings in this House in October. They were unprecedented; they did raise serious questions.

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I will come in a moment to ping-pong and how amendments made by this House are considered by the other place, but I disagree with the noble Lord about his interpretation of what I am saying. I am very clear that there is a difference between somebody having the power to stop something and somebody having the power to force something through that others are not in agreement with.

Moving on to this House, and to pick up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, as I have already said, our powers remain exactly the same and our procedures are not affected. We will be able to consider legislation in the future in exactly the same way as we do now. When we amend legislation and we send a Bill back to the other place, the Speaker will have to certify our amendments again. He will certify whether the amendments that have been made—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The Leader says that what has been proposed does not change anything in this House. My question is: why not? I go back to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. This is a most extraordinary situation, where his MP will not be allowed to take part in key decisions, whereas he, as a Member residing in Scotland, is. We have yet to hear any convincing argument about why the two Houses are being treated differently.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Although my noble friend does not agree with the reason why the two Houses are being treated differently, he answered his own question, which is that we are all Peers of the United Kingdom. We do not represent any particular part of the United Kingdom. As I said when I first repeated the Statement that introduced these proposals a few months ago, as much as I am proud to come from Beeston and wanted to take Beeston in my title, I do not represent Beeston. None of us represents any particular part of the country, so that is why we are treated differently.

When our amendments go to the other place, the Speaker will be asked to certify whether they apply only to England or England and Wales. The other place will consider our amendments in the Chamber in exactly the same way as they do now: the whole House of Commons will consider the amendments made by your Lordships’ House. When MPs come to vote on any such amendments, the votes will be counted for a double-majority. If the amendments that we have made to legislation affect only England or England and Wales, it will be necessary for those MPs to approve our amendments as well as the whole House of Commons.

The noble Lord says, from a sedentary position, that that is a veto. But we have to take a step back for a moment and remember that what we are introducing here is English votes for English laws. We are saying that we want Members of Parliament who represent English constituencies to have a stronger voice. It would make a mockery of that if MPs from those constituencies were not able to have a stronger voice when asked to consider amendments that affect only their constituencies.

This is not the process for amendments that apply to the UK as a whole, but for those that apply to England or England and Wales only. If the House of Commons as a whole votes in favour, but the English or English and Welsh MPs do not support measures that apply only to their constituencies, we will receive back a message that says the House of Commons does not agree with the amendments that we have made. The key point is that we will receive a message in exactly the same way as we do now, with a reason why the House of Commons has decided not to accept the amendments. It will be up to the Government, as they are now, to consider very carefully what has been said by the House of Commons and to consider what we might want to put forward to this House. This House will then decide what it wants to do. If this House still does not agree, it will send the message back again—so our amendments will be considered in exactly the same way. But we cannot introduce English votes for English laws without the MPs who represent English or English and Welsh constituencies having the stronger voice that they deserve when this House wants to introduce something that will affect only those places.

House of Lords: Governance

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask the Leader of the House what discussions she plans to hold on reviewing the governance of the House of Lords in the light of the report of the House of Commons Governance Committee.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I discuss governance of the House in my meetings with the leaders of the other party groups, the Convenor, the Lord Speaker, the Chairman of Committees, the Clerk of the Parliaments and others, including the noble Lord himself, and will continue to do so. The report to which he refers will help to inform conversations on this subject in future.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will know that, among other recommendations of the Select Committee which have yet to be accepted by the Commons, it recommended that there should be a review of shared services between the two Houses and that there should be a drawing up of a medium-term programme towards a single bicameral services department. Does she accept that there is merit in providing joint services between the two Houses, provided that the House of Lords is an equal partner? Does this position of equality extend to discussions in future about the refurbishment of the estate?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is right to highlight in the report from the Commons committee a recommendation for us to explore the prospect of more shared services. I certainly support reviewing the scope for extending shared services between the two Houses when they would deliver greater value for money and lead to more effectiveness.

It would be premature for me to express a view on having a single department. Let us focus on what is possible and what would make sense in terms of us working together on those shared services. As the noble Lord rightly says, in any such arrangement, as exists already on shared services, the House of Lords must be an equal partner with the House of Commons.

Select Committee Reports: Government Responses

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend makes an important point. I believe that the quality of government responses to reports is the most important thing. I also say to the House that the written responses to Select Committee reports are not the only way that we should judge how the Government are responding to inquiries undertaken by Select Committees. If you look, for instance, at the Mental Capacity Act inquiry, which was another post-legislative scrutiny report, that committee made some very important recommendations that the Department of Health has responded to and acted on. Some changes that are important to the people affected are now taking place.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I notice that one of the responses that we are waiting for is on a report of the Communications Committee on broadcast general election debates, which was published on 13 May last year. Are we still awaiting the government response? The election is only a few weeks away, so I would have thought it would be timely for us to have a debate—or is the Prime Minister frit?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think the noble Lord is stretching the point here. The report he highlighted as one that has not yet been responded to has not been raised with me. If the relevant committee wanted to raise that as a concern with me then clearly I would raise it with my colleagues in government.

House of Lords

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Tuesday 6th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

When I say “right time”, I mean that it does not have to be all the time. Some of the rarest contributors can be the most valuable Members of this House if they exercise self-restraint, a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland.

I am not going to comment on each proposal put forward today and I am certainly not going to rule anything out before there is an opportunity for proper consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, urged me to take this matter seriously and I do, but I also say to noble Lords that we must guard against sounding too defeatist in the way that we speak about this House and the number of Peers who attend. Some noble Lords have used what I thought was rather colourful language, which I would not deploy myself, to describe this House. Right now we are doing a good job. We remain a strong and considered revising Chamber, one where a noble Lord, whether a Minister or a member of the Back Benches, will always have to make a compelling case to win an argument and the support of the House. The Opposition waste no opportunity to highlight that the Government have been defeated over 100 times during this Parliament, so I was a little surprised at the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, represented what has happened over the past few years. The other point that is worth making is that in terms of the effectiveness of the contributions made by noble Lords in our debates—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Would the Minister not agree that coalition government changes the dynamic of the second Chamber? We can trade statistics but there is no doubt about it: the Government are winning more votes than the previous one did, and that is clearly because the two government parties together have a large majority over the Opposition. That was not the case under the previous Government. It makes a difference.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We do not have a majority because there are Cross-Benchers in this House, as the noble Lord knows well. The point that I was going to add was that we should not measure the effect of the contributions made in this House just by government defeats. A huge number of government amendments are made to legislation as a result of dialogue with noble Lords during the passage of legislation.

Clearly we cannot keep growing indefinitely, and that is one of the reasons why we have introduced a massive change in this Parliament: Peers are now able to retire permanently. That change reinforces our ability to give the public confidence in the laws that Parliament makes. Just as we should expect Members to contribute on occasions when they are especially well placed to do so, so we are now able to support noble Lords who wish to retire when they feel that that is no longer the case for them. Some noble Lords have argued against an age limit; some, like my noble friend Lord Naseby, have spoken in support of one. Consideration about retirement is not just a matter of age; it is also a matter of contribution, a point made by those speaking today.

I am not here to prescribe how or whether a contribution can be specified, because retirement is a deeply personal decision. We were all moved by Lord Jenkin’s valedictory speech, and I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, quoted from it today. However, if we focus on the purpose of the House of Lords and are committed to increasing our effectiveness as an unelected Chamber, we should be able to support each other in deciding when it is time to retire.

I turn to some of the points that noble Lords made about the need for restraint in new appointments. As has been acknowledged, the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, focuses on attendance, not appointments. That said, the Prime Minister has indeed exercised his prerogative power to recommend appointments in a restrained way. I dispute what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, said, not least because my noble friend Lord Strathclyde asked me to confirm whether there are only 34 more Members on the four main Benches than there were in 2007. That is incorrect. In the light of the retirement of Lord Jenkin, today the number is 33. It has gone down.

The idea of a moratorium on appointments was put forward by some noble Lords. As I have already said, and this has been supported by noble Lords today, it is right that there continue to be new appointments to this House so that we may bring fresh views and perspectives to our work. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, referred to vote share and the coalition agreement. That was in the coalition agreement. It is and has always been a general aim, not a mathematical equation, but it is worth pointing out that during this Parliament the Prime Minister has appointed 47 Labour Peers as well as Conservative and Liberal Democrat Peers.

Some noble Lords raised questions about the pressures on our practices, procedures and resources. Of course we should try to mitigate them. On specific matters of procedure and practice, I set out my views in some detail during the short debate last month led by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, so I shall not repeat them, except to say that I disagree with him about the role of the Lord Speaker. I believe that it is important that we properly respect and uphold our self-regulating nature because it is again about being different from the Commons, and the fact that we are different adds value to what happens in the parliamentary process.

I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, has spoken to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, who has indicated that he is willing to provide the undertaking that the noble Lord is seeking, namely that that committee should consider the issue he has raised with a view to reporting back to the House. I think that that is an appropriate next step as part of an ongoing discussion. My noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord MacGregor, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and others suggested an options paper by the Clerk to inform the discussion of the Procedure Committee. A range of ideas has been put forward today by my noble friends Lord Jopling, Lord MacGregor and Lord Wei, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and others, so there is quite a lot to feed in to any discussion that may take place in the Procedure Committee. I would like that discussion to be informed by our purpose of ensuring that there is public confidence in the laws of the land and in what Parliament decides and to consider how we can be clear about what we expect from each other in contributing to that purpose.

I want to be specific in response to any suggestion that taxpayers’ money might be made available to encourage Members to retire. That remains very much a red line for me. That is not something that I want to support at all, for the reasons that other noble Lords have given today. The noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, asked about mechanisms, and the noble Lord, Lord Williams, was clear when he said that any mechanisms that we consider will be voluntary.

My noble friend Lord Cope is right that our powers to self-regulate go far, but they do not override Her Majesty the Queen’s power in the Life Peerages Act to create peerages for life with rights to sit and vote or the Prime Minister’s right to put forward to Her Majesty recommendations for appointments. However, while I am on the matter of regulation, I can respond to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, who asked about legislation to accelerate the appointment of women Bishops. A government Bill on that had its First Reading in the Commons just before Christmas, so that is proceeding.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Wednesday 30th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

That Standing Order 10(6) (Hereditary peers: by-elections), which requires that by-elections take place within three months of a vacancy occurring, be dispensed with to allow the by-election following the death of Lord Methuen to take place on 21 October 2014.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House for some clarification? As we apparently have the ability to delay the by-election of an hereditary Peer for some weeks, does that mean we could delay it for some years, or indeed indefinitely? If so, ought we not to do so?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

I think the noble Lord is clear about what we are doing. We are making a change to provide for a logistical matter so that the by-election can be held when the House returns in the autumn.

Housing: Leasehold Reform

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Thursday 3rd April 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, we had a communication from the Government Whips’ Office that these debates were to be rolling, because of the vote.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My sincere apologies to the Committee. That is my mistake completely and I offer my apologies. I have gone over my time. There is a considerable amount more information that I can provide, which I will do in a letter to follow up this debate.

The key point that I want to make in conclusion is that, while we do not have plans to reform the legislation in this area, my honourable friend the Housing Minister is very interested in the concerns that are being raised and we certainly look forward to hearing further following the meeting that will be chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Best, which was referred to. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their patience today.

Energy Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Very good. All new gas appliances are subject to various standards laid down by the European Union. People in rented accommodation are covered by the requirement on landlords in the gas safety regulations to ensure that there is an annual gas safety check

As discussed at Questions today, we in Government feel that the real risk is to those people who live in rented accommodation where their landlords are not reputable or do not take care properly of the property that they rent out. We are putting in place a package of measures that we think will lead to greater safety for those who are in rented accommodation. As I said earlier today, I am pleased to announce that we have decided to extend the scope of the review announced a couple of weeks ago, so that it considers whether there is a need to require the installation of carbon monoxide alarms in privately rented housing. We are working on the matters to be covered in this review but I envisage that they will include questions as to whether the actions that I talked about earlier today are sufficient to raise and maintain awareness or whether other approaches, including regulation, might be needed.

When we think about regulation, we need to consider how any regulatory approach sits with building regulations, fire safety rules and housing standards regulations, because there are overlapping regulatory regimes. We will certainly want to look at the interaction with regulations on smoke alarms and perhaps include the scope for promoting combined carbon monoxide and smoke alarms.

Clearly, there are a lot of technical issues to consider, but once we have completed the review, if regulation is considered to be the right course of action, we must take all the necessary steps so that it is done in a proportionate and targeted way and interested parties, including housing groups and landlords, are properly consulted. The last thing that we would want would be ineffective regulation that did not result in the outcomes that we all want—reduction in deaths and in the effects of carbon monoxide poisoning—and that made the situation even worse by forcing up rents or discouraging good landlords from being in the market, thereby limiting choice to renters.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for her constructive response up to this point, when she came to the noble Baroness’s actual amendment. Surely it is not the contents of the regulation that are being determined here; what the noble Baroness is seeking to do is to give the Government a regulation-making power that can then be constructed in the light of the review that they have undertaken. Of course, the Minister says that if it were decided that regulation was needed in the future, she would find the vehicle for it. We all know the difficulty of finding suitable legislative opportunities in this area—now is the time. I really hope that she will give this further consideration.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As much as I was very happy to give way to the noble Lord, and I had finished the point that I was making at that time, the noble Lord still managed to intervene before I had finished making all the points that I wanted to make today. I hope that by the time I finish—in what is going to be a matter of seconds—he will feel a bit more reassured by what I have to say.

Before I conclude, it is worth repeating that the noble Lord’s Government did a very comprehensive review of building regulations in 2009 and concluded that the regulations they should introduce are the ones that I have just spoken about, which apply to the new wood-burner that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has had installed in his house. I commend the work that his Government did, but the point that I am making, while he is pressing me, it that it is not so long since his own Government did a very thorough piece of work and concluded that the regulations should be limited as they are currently.

All that said, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, not least because of my recent arrival in this post and this being the first opportunity I have had to consider these points and respond to a debate on this matter. I am happy to reflect further on this in light of today’s debate. Of course, I will discuss this matter further with my ministerial colleagues and, if the noble Baroness is willing, have a further conversation with her before we reach Third Reading. On that basis, I hope that she feels able to withdraw her amendment.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Thursday 22nd March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report issued by the Electoral Commission on 15 March on the election of police and crime commissioners.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the Government recently completed a consultation with the Electoral Commission and others, which included consideration of how the public can receive information about police and crime commissioner candidates. We are looking at options, and in reaching a decision an important consideration will be ensuring that members of the public can gain access to information by a range of means.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the elections are in November. Will the noble Baroness say why so far the Home Secretary has turned down requests for the funding of election materials for distribution by candidates, which is directly contrary to the practice both for MPs and for elected mayors? Will the noble Baroness confirm that the Government’s intention is to see a low turnout in the elections?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, election addresses are an important and routine part of the election process. The Home Office proposes a cost-effective way of distributing election addresses for PCC candidates. As the noble Lord will know, election addresses are not the only form of communication that takes place during a campaign. The Electoral Commission is responsible for raising awareness of the election. The Government will make sure that the policy of the creation of PCCs is widely known—as it is already. The candidates must take responsibility for communicating their messages through their campaigns.

Protests: Tent Pitching

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am very grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his question. Thank you.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Minister to her position at the Dispatch Box today. Could the Minister comment on the original suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack? I would ask that the review is undertaken very carefully indeed and that there is the widest possible consultation. In terms of what overseas visitors will see next year, would it not be better that they saw an example of a vibrant democracy in action?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I agree with the noble Lord. We are expecting many people here next year and want to present a thriving London to everybody who visits. I will certainly take on board the points that he made, but I can only repeat that the department is considering this matter at this time and taking it very seriously.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I hope I can give some reassurance to my noble friend on the issues that she has raised in her amendments today.

My noble friend’s first amendment relates to Clause 5 and the power to extend a TPIM notice for a further year. As Clause 5 makes clear, a TPIM notice can be extended only if conditions A, C and D are met at the time and the TPIM notice would otherwise expire. In particular, the notice and the measures specified in it must be considered necessary at that point. The Secretary of State cannot reasonably make a decision to extend until shortly before the notice would expire. If she attempted to do so, I am sure that the courts would not uphold her decision. My noble friend might also like to know that decisions on whether to renew control orders have been taken only relatively close to what would otherwise be the expiry date. However, I can also assure my noble friend that any subsequent change in relation to ongoing necessity will be reflected as soon as is practical, by either the relaxation of particular measures or the revocation of the notice as a whole. This is because necessity must continue to be made clear at all stages while the notice remains in place.

My noble friend has also tabled several amendments to Clause 6 and Schedule 1 in respect of the word “obviously”. These are Amendments 28, 30, 31 and 33 to 35. She seeks to clarify the word “obviously” and proposes deleting it from the phrase “obviously flawed” where it occurs. I can confirm that, in essence, this language is intended to mean much the same as prima facie in the context of what will normally be an ex parte application. In other words, her assumption on this matter is correct.

At the permission stage, the court will normally consider the application in the absence of the individual who is to have measures imposed on him. This is to ensure that the individual is not given advance warning that he is to be made the subject of a TPIM notice. The judge therefore undertakes an initial check at this early stage to ensure that there is nothing in the material presented to him to indicate that the Secretary of State is clearly wrong to think that the statutory test is satisfied, either in relation to having reasonable grounds to believe in terrorism-related activity or the need to impose a notice, or in relation to one or more of the proposed measures. It is a preliminary hearing that in essence ensures that the Secretary of State is not using her powers in an obviously inappropriate way, and therefore is very different to the further stages when the courts would review the actual decision.

The language of “obviously flawed” is well understood and applied by the courts as it is the language that is used in the control orders legislation—it is already there. The Government therefore consider that it is appropriate to continue to use this language. The full court review will, of course, be undertaken after the measures have been imposed. The procedures for that are set out in Clauses 8 and 9.

Finally, my noble friend’s other amendment in this group relates to what would happen in a circumstance where the court determined that only the Secretary of State’s conclusion that condition D is satisfied is obviously flawed—therefore, A and C had been met but D was flawed. This is likely to be where the court identifies that one or more of the individual measures specified in the proposed TPIM notice clearly does not meet the test that it is necessary for purposes connected with preventing or restricting the individual’s involvement in terrorism-related activity. In these circumstances the court may give permission to impose a TPIM notice, but may in doing so give directions to the Secretary of State in relation to the measures to be imposed.

The amendment would amplify Clause 6(9) by adding the words,

“including the variation or cancellation of specified measures”.

As my noble friend has explained, she is seeking an assurance from me that this is already the case. She is seeking further information than that which was provided during the passage of the Bill in another place. I can confirm that, as drafted, Clause 6(9) would allow the court to give directions in relation to the variation of the proposed measures set out in the draft TPIM notice. Equally, it would allow the court to direct that a particular measure should not be included in the notice. It should be noted that while the court may give directions in this regard, it will remain the duty of the Secretary of State actually to draft the terms of the measure as this role falls not to the court but to the Secretary of State, with her recognised expertise and responsibility in matters of national security and the measures that are required in order to protect the public. But when doing so following the directions of the court, she will clearly be very constrained in how she conducts that drafting exercise.

I hope that I have provided sufficient assurance to my noble friend and that she will withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness agonises over whether she puts this to the vote, the final point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, about the Secretary of State’s responsibilities is well taken. I congratulate her on what is probably her first appearance at the Dispatch Box, certainly in this Committee stage.