Outcome of the European Union Referendum

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, our debate today has the potential to be one of the most significant in the recent history of your Lordships’ House. Indeed, I see today as a real opportunity for us as a House to reflect on the decision that has been made and to offer some clear thinking about the issues we now face as a country. It is an opportunity for the House of Lords to show why it exists.

In repeating several Statements over the last week, I have set out the views of Her Majesty’s Government, and I want today to be much more than an occasion for me to set them out again. Over the next two days my noble friend Lady Anelay and I are here primarily to listen, so, in opening, I will try to start the process of reflection by offering my perspective both on the vote itself and on the responsibilities incumbent on this House, as I see them, in the weeks and months ahead.

To state the obvious first, the referendum was a momentous democratic exercise. Over the weeks of the campaign we saw passionate cases put forward by both sides and, more importantly, we saw voters engage with an enthusiasm that we had not seen for many years. Indeed, more than 33 million people from across the UK and Gibraltar exercised their democratic right.

I appreciate that when the votes were counted it was not the result that many of us may have wanted— indeed, 48% of us voted to remain—but the result was clear. By a margin of more than 1 million, 52% of the people who voted elected for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union—an instruction that this Government, and all of us, must respect and seek to act on.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Will the noble Baroness give way?

[Noble Lords]

No.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Extend the time.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Order, order. I am so sorry, my Lords. As noble Lords know, we do not have points of order in this House.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Why?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We are now moving on to the next Statement. The noble Lord asks about the time allocated to Back-Bench questions. As he knows—I think that he was here in the House on Monday—I was very happy to extend the time on Monday for Back-Bench questions. I have repeated this Statement today. We have scheduled time on Tuesday next week for a full day’s debate for noble Lords to debate Europe and we will have a series of debates on Thursday. I know that there is much that noble Lords want to debate and question, and there will be lots of opportunities, but I am afraid that we have to continue with our other business. My noble friend Lord Ahmad is about to make a very important Statement which covers some of the topics that noble Lords have been raising. I am sorry, but we are going to move on. I just want to explain to the House what it is that we are doing right now. My noble friend is now going to move on.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 9th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Leader of the House can help me in relation to business of the House. In the other place, if a Minister misleads the House, it can be raised on a point of order. We do not have that procedure. On Tuesday, the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, told the House that the St Helena airport was open, and it is not. She said that RMS “St Helena” was going to be available to continue taking people on and off the island; at that very moment, RMS “St Helena” was sailing up the Thames, about to be decommissioned, apparently. Could the Leader of the House arrange for the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, to make a Statement to the House next week correcting the mistake she has made and giving us true information about the situation regarding the airport on St Helena?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the procedural point that the noble Lord raised, as he has acknowledged, we do not have points of order in this House. That is an established arrangement in the way we conduct our business. I will have to take away the substantive point that he has raised and explore it further, and give it proper and due consideration.

House of Lords: Composition

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 24th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to make the composition of the House of Lords more representative of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, Members of your Lordships’ House come from all corners of the United Kingdom, but we do not represent those nations and regions. We all work on behalf of the United Kingdom as a whole. Any change in that respect would be fundamental. As is clear from the Conservative manifesto, comprehensive reform of this House is not a priority in this Parliament.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Did the Leader of the House not see the Answer that I received from her colleague in the Ministry of Justice which stated that out of 808 Writs issued to Peers to attend this House in this Parliament, 385 were to Peers living in London, with very few in Wales, in the east and West Midlands, in the north-east and north-west of England and in Yorkshire and Humberside? To reflect all those interests properly, is it not better to have people from all quarters of the United Kingdom? Will the Leader of the House look at ways in which this terrible imbalance can be rectified?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that certain parts of the United Kingdom are better represented than others. I believe that for us to be effective as a House it is important that we all offer a range of backgrounds, experiences and expertise. However, because we are unelected and do not have responsibility to represent any parts of the United Kingdom, it is not an easy question for us to remedy, but it is certainly one that I shall reflect on.

Immigration: Harmondsworth

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

Order. Why does not the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, ask a question?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, we have gone through four Questions this morning. Has the Minister, like me, been thinking, “How long will it be before we can forgive the Liberal Democrats for not dealing with these problems when they were part of the coalition”?

European Council

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to say that there is an alternative—of course there is an alternative. That is why there are two choices for the British people: to leave or to remain. The alternative—and it may be something like the Norway model—is not inconceivable, but it would not be without cost and is not something that we should walk blindly into without recognising that it brings with it its own disadvantages. We have to be clear what the alternative is. That is what the next few weeks and months will have to be about in this debate: if there is an alternative, what is it?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, can I follow up on the particular point that has just been raised and the excellent point that was raised by my noble friend Lord Hain? Since the Minister and I are on exactly the same side—enthusiastically, and for the first time ever, I think—can I ask her a favour? Will she go back to the Cabinet and say, “Let us find some way of requiring these people who are against the present arrangement to put forward their alternatives so that we can examine them in detail”? They need to be required to do that so we can see clearly what the alternative is. If the Cabinet can come up with some kind of arrangement for that, I will give it and the Minister three cheers.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is for those who want to campaign to leave to come up with their arguments and the case for that. It is not for me, on the opposite side of the argument, to try to find a mechanism for them to do so; that is their responsibility. We will go through the process of formally designating the leave campaign and, as part of that process, I imagine that the respective group that is successful will be the one that the Electoral Commission feels has covered all the requirements set out for it.

European Union: United Kingdom Renegotiation

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 4th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am happy to reassure my noble friend about two things on the emergency brake. First, the Commission has made it clear that in its view the emergency brake would apply immediately, assuming that the British people decide that they want to remain in Europe. It is worth reminding ourselves that not only has the Commission said that but President Juncker also said yesterday that this was a good deal in response to the failure of the previous Labour Government to protect the UK from an increase in immigration from the accession countries when they had opportunity to do so. This has been signalled as a ready-to-apply and will apply immediately if this is what the British people vote for.

Secondly, as far as benefits at local rate are concerned, the Prime Minister outlined our response and reaction to what is in the Tusk proposal. Clearly, we are confident that if that is what is in the deal and package we would be able to administer that arrangement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness the Leader confirm that it is the United Kingdom that is the member of the European Union and that it does not matter if any principality, province or nation of the United Kingdom votes differently? It is the decision of the people of the whole of the United Kingdom that will be decisive in the referendum.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I want to take this rare opportunity to say to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I agree with him.

Strathclyde Review

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It had already decided what its view was on the statutory instrument and we do not have that mechanism for a dialogue.

The role of this House and its powers on SIs is not a new issue; this is something that we have heard from many noble Lords speaking today. My noble friend Lord Wakeham, through his royal commission, and other noble Lords have grappled with this issue in the past. Over the past few months, and indeed through today’s debate, what has crystallised, for me, is the fact that there is no clear agreement among us about how we exercise our powers. We are still debating and still disagreeing today about whether the Motions that were tabled in October were fatal or non-fatal. I feel that, for us to be effective, we cannot sustain that lack of agreement between us about how we use our powers.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was the first person that I noted down who said, “It’s not broke so let’s not fix it”, but he was not the only one who made that point; in fact, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said the same. But, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and others argued, conventions work only when both sides agree on what they mean in practice. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, looked back on the submissions made by my noble friend when we were in opposition. I also looked at the submissions made to the Joint Committee on Conventions by the noble Lord’s Government when they were in power. Back then, the then Labour Government said in their submission:

“A contested convention is not a convention at all”.

I agree. That is the problem we have at the moment—we are contesting.

For us to fulfil our role effectively, we need clarity, simplicity and certainty—what my noble friend outlined as principles in his report—and we need to ensure that the other place has the decisive say on secondary legislation, just as is the case when we consider Bills. My noble friend’s report gives us the opportunity to consider how we could do things differently and tackle the long-standing questions raised.

Before I talk about some of the options that my noble friend outlined and the responses to some of those that he put forward, I should be clear that the Government are still listening. Tonight I will not offer any government response to what he put forward in his report—the options and the recommendation. In terms of considering the way forward, the Government will take account of this debate, which is why it has been such a valuable exercise. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked earlier that we should consider, and I am considering what has been argued—I am taking it on board. I have listened carefully to the debate tonight.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I respect what the noble Baroness says, but in her remarks so far she gives no evidence whatever of having taken account of any of the comments made right around the House. Could she make it clear how all the points made—the very good suggestions from every quarter of the House—will be brought together, considered by the Government and dealt with? Will they look at setting up a Joint Committee?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am conscious of time; everybody is tired. I am going to come on to that; I have just said that that is what I am going to come on to, and I will.

Some noble Lords thought that it would be best to proceed without legislation and instead to codify the convention; certainly there is an argument to be made in respect of that, but that approach would require us to restore a shared understanding about the convention underpinning our power of veto. Most noble Lords focused their comments on the third option put forward by my noble friend, the one that he recommends—as he described it, the ping without a pong. He suggests that that would replace this House’s power of veto with a new power to ask the other place to think again, with the House of Commons having the final say.

What he is recommending there is what noble Lords are arguing for. However, some thought that it would be necessary to retain the veto available to us now. I stress again that all these things are under consideration, but it is important for me to point out that we do not have an absolute veto when it comes to primary legislation. The new power that my noble friend suggests would be more in keeping with the role of this House, and the desire it has to ask the other House to think again.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others asked me from the Labour side of the House to consider what was possible that would have some longevity and was not about just advancement for any particular party in government. Again, I found it very helpful to revisit what the Labour Party said to the Joint Committee on Conventions about the veto when they were in power. Forgive me for singling out the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, again but it was he who made this point to the Joint Committee. He said that,

“the House of Lords can veto secondary legislation … the very legitimate question arises … whether it would be sensible to consider the proposition that the Lords in respect of secondary legislation should do what it does with primary legislation, and see its function as being a delaying, revising chamber but not a vetoing chamber. That is really the question that is being put”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The point is to make sure that the House of Commons has the final say on secondary legislation. It has set out how it wishes to consider what has been put forward by my noble friend. He has put forward his options after extensive consultation with Members of the other place, as well as with Members of your Lordships’ House.

There is clearly much for me to reflect on from this debate. I will do so with my colleagues in government. I am sincere when I say that the contributions have been very valuable. We have not come to any conclusions in government.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Baroness has said that she has not come to any conclusion, yet she has said that she is not going forward with a Joint Committee. How are the Government going forward? A lot of good suggestions have been made in this House. If we are not to waste the whole day that we have spent on this, she must indicate to the House how the Government will take this forward.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have said what we are doing. We will reflect on the very important points that have been made today. My noble friend Lord Trefgarne and his committee will be looking at what has been put forward. There may be other committees of your Lordships’ House that wish to do so as well. We will be considering this in the period ahead; at an appropriate point we will consider which is the best way forward, and I will return to your Lordships’ House.

My noble friend has done a comprehensive piece of work. As my noble friend Lord Wakeham said, what is in my noble friend’s report is very similar to what was in the report of his commission 16 years ago. Many noble Lords have pointed to that as a way forward. I am not reaching any conclusion tonight on the right way forward, but my noble friend Lord Wakeham’s point is very important and it is worth us all dwelling on it.

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry to intervene at such an early stage. The noble Baroness will recall that this House divided on a Motion to set up a Joint Committee of the Commons and the Lords. I wonder if she can tell the House what response we have had from the Commons to that proposal.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord is quite right and I can assure him that I will come to that matter in my remarks. There is no way that I would seek to ignore that important point.

As I have said, our proposals will give the English a strong voice on English matters and we will respect the right of every MP from every part of the UK to debate and vote on every piece of legislation in the House of Commons. What we would argue is that our approach is pragmatic and proportionate. As noble Lords know, we do not propose to give English MPs a Parliament or the right to initiate legislation alone. What we are proposing instead is simply that where legislation affects England or England and Wales only, it cannot progress against the will of English or English and Welsh MPs. Just as the proposals are pragmatic, so they are flexible. Before the Summer Recess, Members of both Houses called for more time for reflection, and my right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons pledged to take the proposals away and consider them further, and that is what he has done. In that time he has listened to representations from a variety of sources, and has given evidence to and engaged with several committees in the other place. He has now come forward with his revised proposals which take account of the concerns raised. The end result is a workable and sensible model to deliver English votes for English laws.

Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 14th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is right to say that until the beginning of the previous Parliament in 2010 there was only one Member of your Lordships’ House on the Intelligence and Security Committee. It was David Cameron, as Prime Minister, who thought at the start of the previous Parliament that it was right to extend that to two Members of your Lordships’ House.

When it comes to the breakdown of the ISC’s membership, it is worth me making two points to noble Lords. The first is that the ISC is not a Joint Committee of both Houses in the conventional sense; it is established by statute. It has nine places on it. As is customary, the Prime Minister consulted the Leader of the Opposition in the summer and—again, as is customary—it was the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition who decided how she, as acting leader, wished to allocate the three places that had been provided for the main opposition party.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I wonder whether the noble Baroness—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to finish. The Leader of the Opposition has decided who will fill the three places that will represent the Labour Party on the committee, and they will be Members of the other place.

We feel it is right to follow the custom that has been in place for a long time, whereby one Member from the governing party in this House and one Member from the independent Cross Benches are on the committee. I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, responded to the Prime Minister’s invitation and accepted his nomination, and I believe that the noble Lord, along with my noble friend Lord Lothian, will do an exceptional job representing this House on the very important Intelligence and Security Committee.

In response to the points raised about funding and accommodation, I do not have to hand information on the respective contribution that the two Houses make to funding, but I will be very happy to provide a letter in reply to that question and place it in the Library. However, I assure all noble Lords that no matter, whether it is about funding or about accommodation, has played any part whatever in the important nominations that the Prime Minister has made. I know full well that the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, and my noble friend Lord Lothian will do an exceptional job and that they will take very seriously the responsibilities of sitting on this important committee.

Airports Commission

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister would make an educated guess—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

Order. It is actually the turn of the Liberal Democrat Benches.

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 16th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, it has not been added as a last-minute afterthought. What is made clear in the proposals that have been brought forward and published this week is a clarification of what was originally intended.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and others asked why we have not brought measures forward on a statutory footing. Standing Orders are the usual means by which procedural changes are made in the other place. But my right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons has confirmed that we will review the way forward in 12 months’ time, once the first Bills subject to the new procedures have reached Royal Assent. We have not ruled out legislation being considered at that point. I note the comment from the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, that legislation would risk bringing the courts into Parliament. That is something we clearly wish to avoid. But more importantly, by approaching these modest changes in a modest way, via Standing Orders, we will allow them to be tested properly, in real time, with legislation. As my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons said, we will put them to review in a year’s time, reviewing them properly then.

The noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, raised some questions about the role of the Speaker, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace. Clearly the noble Baroness knows far more about what is involved in being the Speaker of the other place than I would ever dare to consider. It is, as she will know, the responsibility of the Speaker to make impartial judgments in a political environment. We believe that giving the responsibility to the Speaker to certify the legislation that the Government bring forward is more appropriate than inviting the Government or the usual channels to do so. That is a much more appropriate way forward.

As to the complexity of the decisions that will have to be made on the extent of the Bills, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, is right: these are sometimes technical decisions but we make our existing processes work when it is necessary for decisions to be made on legislative consent Motions, and I am confident that the same can apply in this case.

As I said when I repeated the Statement last week, it is important to acknowledge that while we are clearly interested in English votes for English laws, the changes that are being brought about apply only to the other place. Our role as a revising Chamber, the part we play and the powers available to us remain just as they are now and our procedures do not change. Noble Lords have suggested that none the less there could be implications in practice for this House. That is something in which I, along with all noble Lords, will take a very strong interest as these changes are rolled out in the House of Commons, and if any issues were to emerge, I would consider it very properly my responsibility to ensure that we have an opportunity to contribute to the review process that has been promised in a year’s time. But we must be careful, as I say, to respect the right of the other place to consider its procedures, in the same way as we would expect it to do when we consider our own.

All that said, of course I appreciate the strong desire among noble Lords for a debate here to inform proceedings in the other place at this early stage. I can just hear some noble Lords making those comments from a sedentary position. As I say, I have been reflecting on this and I think that it is right that we provide some additional time. My noble friend the Chief Whip and I have been looking at this and I propose to arrange a further debate after the Summer Recess in September, in government time and without a time limit, because I recognise that time has been tight today. While I urge noble Lords to keep in mind that ultimately these are matters for decisions in another place in so far as they affect its procedures, I am happy none the less to ensure that we provide that time for a debate so that we can contribute in the way that I feel is most appropriate.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am running out of time so if the noble Lord will forgive me, I would like to make progress and comment on the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, for a Joint Committee, which is an important topic.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I wonder—

Palace of Westminster Committee

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 9th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Coming back to the topic of this Motion, I make it clear to the noble Baroness and to the House that it has been my view that the membership of the restoration and renewal Joint Committee should be equal in numbers and in approach in terms of this House and the other place. I am just waiting for the House of Commons to confirm its approach before we finalise our own because I am trying to achieve exactly that aim—making sure that there is a proper balance in the way that the Joint Committee is formed. I hope that that gives the noble Baroness and the House the assurance that they are looking for. Therefore, we will be equally represented in number, and I might even suggest to your Lordships that the team of members from this House will be more powerful and more authoritative, because, quite frankly, that is what I think we are.

I note what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said about the decision in the House of Commons regarding English votes for English laws, but I say to him, as I say to the noble Baroness and to the House as a whole, that the House of Commons is debating changes to its Standing Orders.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

That will affect us.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I note that a noble Lord said from a sedentary position that that will affect us. However, the processes and procedures of our House will not be affected by any changes to the Standing Orders in the other place.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, before we move on to the next business, I have been sitting in the Lords Gallery in the other place in the debate on English votes for English laws, which has serious consequences for constitutional issues of interest to this House. Will the Leader of the House or the Chief Whip give an assurance that, before any changes are made, this House will have an opportunity to debate the matter?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is rather unconventional for the noble Lord to stand up to ask a question when a Motion or Question has not been tabled. However, I can tell the House that somebody was successful today in the ballot for a topical QSD on this topic, so there will be a debate under those terms a week on Thursday.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 16th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, this Motion is illustrative of the kind of flexibility and co-operation without which this House could not operate. However, it might sometimes be appropriate to remember that such flexibility and co-operation should work in both directions.

Taxation: Avoidance

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 9th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not a strange comparison—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I could not help noticing that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was not here at all for the Statement that my noble friend Lord Newby repeated at the beginning of this Urgent Question. It is our convention that it is appropriate for a noble Lord to be present in the Chamber if he wishes to ask a question about a Statement. As I have taken time in order to make this point, it is of course the turn of a Labour Peer to ask a question of my noble friend should they wish, but I think that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would not be in line with the Companion if he was to ask that question himself.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I heard the full Statement. Can I ask the noble Lord: is it not strange that in the United States—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, our convention suggests, as stated in the Companion, that noble Lords must be here in this Chamber to hear the Statement being repeated if they wish to ask a question of the Minister repeating that Statement. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was not in the Chamber to hear my noble friend repeat the Statement.

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows that we follow several conventions. We have had one already, which is about giving way to each other. There is another about the sides taking turns as we go around the House. We have just heard from the Labour Front Bench, so it is now the right time to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler.

House of Lords: Governance

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not know whether the noble Lord was present during our recent debate on procedures in this House, but I certainly made the point when responding to similar points raised during that debate that we are all accountable for ensuring that Question Time works efficiently. As for the responsibilities of the Lord Speaker, it was considered very carefully during this Parliament; there was a Division on the matter in this House, and the House decided that it would retain the role of Lord Speaker as it currently exists.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness in replying to that debate, which I initiated, did not answer any of the questions. What is the point of having a Speaker if we do not give her any responsibilities whatever? Surely, now that we have had two Speakers over the past few years, it is the time to review the position, look at it again and let this House decide again in the light of experience.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am sorry the noble Lord feels that I did not respond to the questions that were put to me during that debate, as I felt that I gave a very comprehensive response to the points that were raised. It is not that long ago since we considered the role of the Lord Speaker. As I have just said, we debated it, there was a Division and the House made clear its view on the matter.

House of Lords

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 6th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I absolutely accept that if the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, had something else to keep him from coming, he should be excused and there is no criticism of him for that, but there are 101 other Liberal Democrats.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do not want to get into any more debate on the Liberal Democrat Benches’ representation; I just wanted to make that point.

My noble friend Lord Wakeham was also very keen to contribute to the debate today, but he is unwell. I know that he would have made a very important contribution had he been here.

At the heart of all the contributions that have been made to this debate is a shared goal: to make this House the best, most effective Chamber possible. Of course I understand the position put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and some others: that our size affects our ability to be effective and may risk our reputation. However, whether or how to reduce the number of Peers attending the House each day is not where I want to start my contribution to the debate.

I want us not just to be effective but to be seen to be the most relevant British institution operating in our world today. In my eyes, regardless of debates about the composition of this House and its future, we exist today as an unelected House with an important job to do. It has been evident from today’s contributions that we all want this House to do that job as best we can. To achieve our goal, I believe that we should be driven by our purpose as a House. That was a point that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and my noble friend Lord Wei made. My definition of purpose is not just what we exist to do—I think that we all agree that we are a revising Chamber seeking to help to make good laws and inform public policy. My definition of purpose also includes the answer to the question: why is that important? For me, the answer to that is this: it is to give people confidence in the laws that we are all required to live by. Giving the people we serve confidence in the laws that Parliament makes is what informs my views and my contribution to the debate today.

In the context of today’s debate, the main thing I would highlight that I think that we should not change, because it is a valuable part of our fulfilling our purpose, is the part-time nature of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, and my noble friend Lord Cope mentioned that. For me, “part time” means that we have a duty to come to this House when we have something to contribute because of our expertise and outside experience, especially on legislation. However, the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, was right to emphasise the important work of the Select Committees, too. I would put legislation at the top of the list of our important work, but Select Committees are a valuable part of what we do here as well.

Because Members are not expected to attend every sitting, it is open to us—that is, noble Lords other than those of us who are a member of the Government or on the Front Bench—to pursue other interests, activities and professions alongside our work in the House. That allows us to draw upon some of the most accomplished individuals in this country and bring a wide range of expertise, experiences and perspectives to our debates. Those insights, and those strong and independent voices, come from all around this House. My noble friend Lord Forsyth said this and is himself evidence of it: those of us who sit on the political Benches, as well as the Cross Benches and the Bishops’ Benches, bring an independent mind, experience and expertise to the work of this House.

The noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, paid tribute to experts such as those from the medical profession who are Members of this House. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, made a similar point but it is important for us to remember that the Cross Benches are not the only places where we find expertise in this House. I add that the kinds of expertise and experience which we often point to as the best examples of the membership of this House are not the only kinds which are valuable. During the Recess I had the great pleasure of listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, speak on the “Jeremy Vine” programme on Radio 2. She was explaining to the listeners how she, as a former deputy secretary of the Transport and General Workers’ Union, made sure that she remained up-to-date in her knowledge of the manufacturing sector by going out to visit lots of factories for her own contribution to the work of this House. My point is that we have in this House experts and people with valuable experience who are working hard to maintain the relevance of that experience. Whatever changes we consider when we look at the way in which we operate, it is important to be careful that these features of our membership are protected and encouraged because they are what makes us different and a valued part of the parliamentary process.

To be clear, as my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord MacGregor said, I, too, think that we need to keep refreshing our experience and expertise with new Members. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, referred to the moment of wonder when he was first appointed to this House and seemed to suggest that, in recent years, it was being lost a little from your Lordships’ House. I reassure him and all noble Lords that the people who are joining our House now are just as filled with excitement about their own opportunity to make a contribution to our work as the noble Lord would have been at the time when he joined. I have the great pleasure of meeting a lot of the new Members just before they arrive—certainly, the ones who sit on my Benches—and I continue to talk to them.

For me, the real issue is not about the absolute numbers of Members eligible to participate in our work but, as the noble Lord, Lord Williams, suggests in his Motion, about attendance. However, like my noble friends Lord Tugendhat and Lord Cormack, and other noble Lords, even on that matter I do not believe that it is strictly about numbers either. It is about how we make sure that Members play their part at the right time. Although each party and group rightly has its own requirements for attendance, which is proper and goes to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, what is really important is whether each of us can say that we have done our bit—that we have used our valid experience and expertise at the right time, in the public interest, to help us as a House to fulfil our purpose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The Minister has stressed the concept—I find this completely new; it was not given to me when I was appointed—that this is a part-time job. It may be possible to be a part-timer if the rest of your work is in London, but if you come from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen or Carlisle how can you do something up there and come down here day in and day out? It is an entirely London-centred concept. I hope that she will rethink this, and go back to whoever advised her on it and say that it is just a lot of nonsense.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I disagree with the noble Lord about that. I think that this is a part-time House.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Answer my question.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

When I say “right time”, I mean that it does not have to be all the time. Some of the rarest contributors can be the most valuable Members of this House if they exercise self-restraint, a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland.

I am not going to comment on each proposal put forward today and I am certainly not going to rule anything out before there is an opportunity for proper consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, urged me to take this matter seriously and I do, but I also say to noble Lords that we must guard against sounding too defeatist in the way that we speak about this House and the number of Peers who attend. Some noble Lords have used what I thought was rather colourful language, which I would not deploy myself, to describe this House. Right now we are doing a good job. We remain a strong and considered revising Chamber, one where a noble Lord, whether a Minister or a member of the Back Benches, will always have to make a compelling case to win an argument and the support of the House. The Opposition waste no opportunity to highlight that the Government have been defeated over 100 times during this Parliament, so I was a little surprised at the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, represented what has happened over the past few years. The other point that is worth making is that in terms of the effectiveness of the contributions made by noble Lords in our debates—

Implications of Devolution for England

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We have no plans for an English Parliament. That is not contained in the Command Paper before us. We have options for addressing the very important issue of English votes for English laws, which has become more pronounced now that more powers have been devolved to Scotland. Clearly I listen very carefully to any advice that I receive from the noble Lord, but this matter has been around for a very long time. There has been a huge amount of thinking on it and we have now got to the point where we have some clear options, one of which we should implement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness answer one simple question? Why cannot a constitutional convention now be set up to look at matters in a coherent way instead of the piecemeal way set out in the White Paper?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I just do not accept the argument that the noble Lord puts forward. The point is that a huge amount of change is under way in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a single urgent issue in England that needs addressing. This is not about ruling out a constitutional convention in the future, but that should not delay us in addressing something that needs to be addressed straight away.

House of Lords: Procedures and Practices

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Thursday 4th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to respond to what has been an interesting debate. I feel that noble Lords have had a good time this afternoon and that we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for allowing us to enjoy a debate on our processes.

Before I address the detailed points that have been raised, and I will of course try to respond to as many as I can, I would like to take one step backwards from where we started. When considering our procedures and practices, it is important that we are clear about for whom and for what are we here. My answer to that is clear: I am sure that this is one on which we are all united. We are here to serve the public by making good law and informing public policy. But over recent years, the public have become increasingly unconvinced that Parliament and the political system as a whole is totally committed to serving them. While in that context there is more focus on the Commons, I know that we in the Lords want to play our part—this is evident from our debate this afternoon—in showing that we are committed to serving the public, so that we, too, help restore public confidence in Parliament as a whole.

In doing that, we obviously we need to aim at the right target, so in my view we need first to be clear when and for what reasons the House of Lords attracts a positive reaction. The impact that we have on the things that matter to people is what counts, along with how we go about our business. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde mentioned, as indeed one or two other noble Lords did in their remarks, the recent Private Member’s Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. It is not by accident that the comments in the media following the initial Second Reading debate on that Bill were about how we conducted our business.

During the summer there was also our debate on military action in Iraq, which led to Mark D’Arcy, who noble Lords will know to be the BBC’s parliamentary correspondent and regular presenter of “Today in Parliament”, tweeting about our debate. He said that we showed “stunning self-discipline” when we finished on time; a sign, he said, of our “self-regulation in action”. It is our less political, less rowdy and less combative approach which shows that we can be more considered, more collaborative and more constructive. That is what people value; it is what marks us out as different from the other place.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Was the noble Baroness in at Question Time on Tuesday and did she not consider that to be rowdy?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am here at every Question Time. I will come to Questions in a moment and address some of the specific points that the noble Lord made about them.

In responding to the debate, I consider that the points raised fall into two main categories. One is on what I would describe as conduct and how we behave; the other is about content or how we arrange the business. Perhaps I may start with conduct. Self-regulation is what distinguishes us from the House of Commons and allows us to show off all that is good about what we do. In my opinion, we should cherish it. There may well be good arguments for considering changes to our approach but we must be conscious of their potential impact on the rights and freedoms that Members currently have. As many noble Lords have indicated today, we have many more freedoms than Members of the other place do.

However, when it comes to the conduct of this House we are all responsible for good order. We currently have, as indeed we had before, a very distinguished noble Baroness as our Lord Speaker, but as recently as 2011 this House voted decisively against changing the Lord Speaker’s responsibilities. I, as Leader, do not have the same powers as Mr Speaker in the Commons. My job, and that of my noble friend the Chief Whip and the other government Whips, is to assist the House. We are not here to rule the House but to help it to do what it has already decided it wishes to do. That was clearly explained by my noble friend Lord Attlee in his contribution.

When it comes to Oral Questions, there are a few facts that it is worth sharing with noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, was right in her comment about the contribution of women Peers at Oral Questions. Indeed, of the six Peers who have asked the most supplementary questions this year, three of them are women. The Peer who asked the most supplementary questions in the most recent Session, though, was the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. We have a large number of Peers asking questions: 350 this year so far. I say to my noble friend Lord Attlee that he remains top of my chart of Members of the Front Bench answering them.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The Minister is absolutely right. That is why if it were the Lord Speaker who called Questions, as I am suggesting, I would be less likely to be called, and that would be a good thing.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am saying to the noble Lord that we are all responsible for ensuring that people have an opportunity to ask questions at Question Time. It is important to state that this House is usually keen to hear from those who are not frequent askers of questions, if other noble Lords who are more frequent in the asking of their questions are more readily willing to give way to them. That is what the House is usually keen to see.

While we are on the subject of Questions, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked why we have so few Urgent Questions allowed. The Government always consult the Opposition on which Commons UQs to repeat here, and every one that the Opposition want repeated is repeated. If he has any questions on that, I suggest that he raises them with the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, referred to my noble friend the Chief Whip’s decision yesterday to go ahead in any case and repeat the Autumn Statement but I think that that was vindicated, not least because of the contribution made today by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who was asking for more time for debates on the Autumn Statement. We are here all the time to try to ensure that noble Lords are able to debate and determine the topics that they wish to consider.

Leader of the House: Cabinet Membership

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister clearly has to operate in accordance with the legislation that prescribes how many Cabinet posts can attract a salary. He has made his decisions on his appointments, as he is at liberty to do, and I believe that he has made those decisions properly. I understand that noble Lords want to keep debating this matter but, as there is very little more for me to offer beyond what I have said so far today, I can only repeat what I said: some important points have been made but I am quite clear that the status that the Prime Minister has afforded me accords me to do my job appropriately.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall that when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, he had not just my noble friend Lady Royall as a full member of the Cabinet but my noble friends Lord Mandelson and Lord Adonis as well—there were three full members of the Cabinet. The noble Baroness is Leader of this House. Surely she recognises the view of this House. Why can she not go back to the Prime Minister and say, “This is the view of the House”, and then come and tell us whether the Prime Minister will reconsider his decision in the light of the views of this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the Prime Minister in the previous Government was responsible for the appointments that he made and I am not going to comment on them. However, the one thing that I will say to the noble Lord is that it was the previous Government who decided to make a very substantial constitutional change to this House, leading to the removal of the Lord Chancellor from this House. As I have said, many points have been made in this debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords for what they have said.

Local Authorities: Local Plans

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

In drafting and publishing local plans for consultation, local authorities are required to produce those plans in line with Government policy with the planning policy framework. Clearly, if there is any specific matter, there are ongoing discussions on that, but I am pretty sure that the way things are working is adequate.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Will the Minister make clear which country she is talking about?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am talking about England. If I were to talk about Wales, where the Labour Party is in government, things are a lot worse over there.

Business Rates

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 25th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

This Government have done a lot to support local communities in adapting their high streets to the changing behaviour of consumers. My noble friend is right to highlight the increase in online trade. The other point worth making about things we are doing differently is that we changed some of the previous Government’s planning guidance which pushed up parking charges and had quite a negative effect on town centres. We are looking to do more in this area and will consult on that soon.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that rates in Scotland are devolved to the Scottish Parliament and will be included in a document produced tomorrow, which the Scottish Government mistakenly call a White Paper? Will she take the opportunity—along with all Ministers, including, particularly, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness—to remind the Scottish Government that the title “White Paper” should only be used for proposals which the Government are able to bring in, and that the proposals included in this document can only be brought in with the agreement of the whole of the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I can only imagine that the noble Lord has chosen to ask a question about process because the substance of my replies have disappointed him. This Government have done an awful lot to support businesses and, for me, today is not the moment to start talking about the way in which different Parliaments operate.

EU: Trade Agreement on Banana Imports

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I have found this debate fascinating, and I congratulate my noble friend Lady Hooper on her patience, as I know she has waited a long time to secure it. Her thoughtful and expert contribution—and indeed those from all noble Lords—clearly demonstrates why, as she says, this topic is still relevant today.

It was clear from the contributions by the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin that this topic arouses a lot of passion and emotion because of our ties with the part of the world that we are discussing. In my response I will try to do justice to the points that have been raised. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, for his welcome to me on this topic, which is one that I know noble Lords in the Chamber today have debated on previous occasions.

As set out in our White Paper, Trade and Investment for Growth, published last year, this Government uphold fully the principles of free and open markets. Free trade reduces the cost of goods and inputs to consumers and manufacturers. It stimulates competitiveness and spurs innovation. Most importantly, free trade, especially at this time, supports sustainable and balanced growth which is, to state the obvious, essential to the global economy. As well as free trade, we believe in non-discrimination between countries at a similar level of development. The European Union’s Geneva Agreement on Trade in Bananas, introduced in 2009, supports both these principles.

Prior to that agreement, the high tariffs placed on bananas imported into the European Union from countries other than the so-called ACP group—Africa, Caribbean and the Pacific—were plainly discriminatory. Not only did that restrict market access and opportunities to banana producers in Latin America and elsewhere, it also raised the price of bananas for consumers in Europe. As I think most noble Lords would agree, those outcomes were not fair, reasonable or economically sensible. By contrast, the Geneva agreement will reduce discriminatory tariffs by 2018, and that reduction will bring considerable benefits.

I shall start with the benefits for the consumer. As my noble friend Lady Hooper has summarised in her remarks, bananas are the most widely bought fruit in the UK. Indeed, in 2010 they accounted for 27 per cent of all fresh fruit purchases. Incidentally, we buy more fair trade bananas than the rest of the world combined. My noble friend asked about the labelling of fair trade bananas and why they did not identify their country of origin. I imagine that the boxes in which the bananas are carried into stores will state their country of origin. I am not sure of the answer to the question about their individual packaging, but I will write to my noble friend. It is true that we are the main source for fair trade bananas. I was interested to hear that earlier today the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, spotted fair trade bananas in the Bishops’ Bar.

The price of bananas has fallen by around 10 per cent over the past 10 years, due to more efficient production and distribution. Further reductions on tariffs should help maintain this trend. The noble Earl asked what the Government were doing to combat a banana price war. The market will always determine the price of commodities; it is not the role of Governments to seek to control that.

The Geneva agreement will also support the industry, as the more efficient producers will be able to compete more fairly. I will come shortly to support for the Caribbean area, but in the long term, the agreement will support Caribbean and other ACP economies as it will encourage efficient production or diversification into other economic sectors better suited to local conditions.

While removing discriminatory tariffs is the right approach, of course I recognise that adapting to a new set of circumstances brings a number of challenges to producers in Africa and the Caribbean, as has been identified by noble Lords this evening. It is therefore right that countries are given time to adjust, and it is why the Geneva agreement will take up to nine years to be fully implemented.

My noble friend Lady Hooper asked whether the agreement is working. It is too early to assess the full impact of the agreement on both the Latin American and ACP producers. It is worth pointing out that since 2009 when the agreement first came into force, the share of the EU market has in broad terms remained unchanged in that the Latin American countries have retained about 70 per cent of the market. My noble friend Lady Benjamin gave specific statistics regarding individual ACP countries; I am afraid that I do not have them in front of me, but the total figure in terms of region has remained steady. That said, when the agreement was finalised, the Commission clearly assessed its potential impact. It calculated that the tariff changes were unlikely to have any major macroeconomic impact on the ACP group of countries as a whole. However, the Commission’s analysis also concluded that there could be significant loss of export revenue for some, in particular for Dominica and St Vincent. There could be consequences for some individual producers if cost-saving measures were not introduced, leading to job losses and localised social difficulties—in other words, if those producers did not or could not increase their efficiency in order to compete.

The Commission’s overall assessment was the rationale for providing further assistance—the banana accompanying measures, or BAMs as they are sometimes known and have been referred to by several noble Lords this evening—on top of the restructuring activities that had been undertaken with EC funding from 1994 until 2008. This assistance package of up to €190 million should be the final tranche of support for banana producers either to increase their international competitiveness for the adoption of new technology or diversify into other economic sectors. Several noble Lords asked what might follow the four-year period. It is worth pointing out that one of the reasons why it has been possible for the European Union to introduce these BAMs and the support is precisely because they are temporary. Had they been a permanent measure, they would not have been compliant with the WTO agreement.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin, along with others, expressed disappointment about these funds having yet to reach the producers they are meant to help. We share that disappointment. Initially, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, indicated, the problem was related to internal wrangling over competence between the Commission and the European Parliament. However, noble Lords will be pleased to know that, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has indicated, this has now been resolved. That resolution means that there are no further excuses for delay. To that end, the head of DfID’s office in the Caribbean has raised the issue of slow disbursement rates with the Commission, most recently on a visit to Brussels last December. We have been lobbying our European partners in Brussels as well. This evening I can at least share with noble Lords that the EC delegation expects approval for disbursement for Jamaica and Belize in summer 2012. We need to keep up the pressure—I will certainly use this evening’s debate as a way of providing ammunition for our representatives in the region—but at the moment that is as much as I can offer.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

If I had been as courteous as the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, I would have welcomed the Minister to the debate and to the Dispatch Box. She has been very helpful. As I have said on several occasions, I have great respect for our Ministers in DfID, Andrew Mitchell, Alan Duncan and Stephen O’Brien. We have a very good team there. Surely one of them could go over to Brussels, as Clare Short and I used to, to give them a shaking and make sure that this money gets flowing as quickly as possible. That is something that can be done. We have a powerful team there. If the Minister draws attention to the widespread support across every Bench in this Chamber, whichever one of them goes can go with our wholehearted blessing.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I think they will hear that message loud and clear from the noble Lord, for which I am grateful.

Despite the setback on BAMs, previous assistance given to banana producers is having some effect. Some countries, namely Cameroon, Belize, Suriname and Ivory Coast, are increasing production and continue to use EC trade assistance funds to increase their competitiveness. I am conscious of the time so I will keep rattling on. However, some countries no longer find it economic to continue in banana production. Other producers have opted to diversify into other sectors such as poultry farming, or on-farm agriprocessing. In Jamaica, 35,000 people have benefited from 15 projects supported by the EC’s special framework programme for banana producers.

Very briefly, there may well be scope in my noble friend’s suggestion of using bananas as a new source of energy. I will certainly inquire and, if there is anything to report, come back to my noble friend.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howells, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, raised the serious issue of drugs and whether some banana producers might turn to producing drugs if they go out of business. Obviously the drugs trade is a pernicious problem and requires the international community to work together to tackle it effectively. We are working closely with the Governments of the Caribbean to eradicate this problem. I am not aware of any evidence that ex-banana growers are more likely than others to take up drug production or trade but it is clearly something that we need to watch out for. Indeed, it was raised at the UK-Caribbean Forum last month, as my noble friend Lady Benjamin mentioned.

There is much that I could cover in my closing remarks but I am conscious of the time. However, I should like to say that, separate from our responsibilities via the EU, the UK Government are doing a great deal to support the Caribbean. We have the interests of the people of the Caribbean very close to our hearts. Four British Ministers, including the Foreign Secretary himself, participated in last month’s UK-Caribbean Forum in Grenada, at which agreement was reached on an action plan to co-operate on a series of programmes to promote economic resilience, tackling climate change, the environment and sustainable development. The Minister of State for International Development announced the first grants under our new £10 million contribution to the Compete Caribbean initiative for private sector development and job creation.

Several noble Lords have raised the issue of air passenger duty. There was an Oral Question on this topic only two weeks ago, so I will not repeat the points made at that time. However, at that same event to which I have just referred, the issue was raised and the difficulties were acknowledged by my right honourable friend William Hague.

I conclude by saying that we will continue to monitor closely the impact of the Geneva agreement on the banana industry. Most importantly, we believe the combined effect of increased free trade via the agreement, together with the support we are providing to the ACP countries more generally, should provide economic benefits for the peoples in all the countries directly affected.

It has been a great privilege to respond to the debate today. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it.