Election of Lord Speaker

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 13th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in offering our congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on being elected Lord Speaker and in offering our support to him as he prepares to take on his new role. I would also like to offer on behalf of the House our thanks to my noble friend Lord Cormack and to the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for standing in this election. Elections are only possible when there are candidates and we are very grateful to both noble Lords. I would also like to pay a very brief tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, as our most distinguished Lord Speaker. There will be a proper occasion for us to pay tributes after the noble Baroness retires as Lord Speaker—because she remains our most distinguished Lord Speaker until 1 September. In the meantime, I offer my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I concur with the noble Baroness’s comments. We welcome the opportunity at a later date to pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and to thank her for it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, said, we warmly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. His election shows the high regard in which he is held in this House. He will know that he has the support of the entire House as he undertakes his duties. He will bring both his personality and his political skills to the role.

What we have seen today is a parliamentary first in that this is the first time that a man has been elected to the role of Lord Speaker. Nowadays, there are few positions in public life of which that can be said. I add our sincere thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for not only having put themselves forward as excellent candidates and given us an excellent choice but for the way in which they conducted themselves during the election, which was a great tribute to them and, indeed, to the whole House. Therefore, we thank them and offer our very warm congratulations to our next Speaker.

House of Lords Appointments Commission

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I echo the noble Lord’s remarks wishing the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, a speedy recovery. On the Question he raised, the House of Lords Appointments Commission does indeed play a very important part in vetting all nominees and recommending excellent candidates for the Cross Benches, but it is the political parties that must be accountable for the Members who sit on the political Benches. That is an important principle that should continue. It is also important that we maintain appointment to the Cross Benches, as well as to the political Benches. That is why the Prime Minister appointed 10 Peers to the Cross Benches in the last Parliament, alongside those appointed independently through the HOLAC process.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we look forward to the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, being back with us when she is fully fit again. Does the Minister not recognise that the Question is being raised because of concern about the number of appointments to the House? I have raised this with her before. This Prime Minister has made appointments to your Lordships’ House at a faster rate than any other Prime Minister since 1958, when life peerages were introduced. We have had a greater percentage of government Peers appointed and fewer Cross-Bench and Opposition Peers. Is the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, not worthy of consideration if we are to maintain public confidence, and your Lordships’ confidence, in the work of this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I, too, very much care about the reputation of this House and that the public maintain their confidence in it. The best way for us to assure that is in the way we make our contributions to this House’s work. It is worth making a couple of points in response to the noble Baroness’s point about size and the number of appointments. Since 2010, nearly 150 Peers have left your Lordships’ House through retirement or, sadly, having passed away. Forty-four of those have been since the general election. We have to continue to refresh and renew our membership. It is an important part of our being effective as a House. On the noble Baroness’s point about appointments by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, 22% of the appointments he has made have been to the Labour Benches.

Her Majesty the Queen: 90th Birthday

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is an honour to lead tributes to Her Majesty in your Lordships’ House today. We are celebrating her 90th birthday, and to do that justice we should first reflect on her early life.

When Her Majesty was born in 1926, she was not expected to be Queen, but at just nine years old her destiny changed and her life of a dedicated public servant began. As a young teenager of 14, during the early years of the war, she made her first radio broadcast to bring comfort and hope to other children being evacuated. Her first solo public engagement followed two years later. At just 25 years old, she succeeded her father to the Throne. That was four short years after she had married and while her first two children were still toddlers. As she became Queen, her first Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, warned:

“She comes to the Throne at a time when a tormented mankind stands uncertainly poised between world catastrophe and a golden age”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/2/1952; col. 962.]

We are fortunate that she will give her name to an era of unparalleled economic growth, technological advance and social change.

Throughout her whole life she has helped our nation to feel at ease with itself, and has served as a remarkable point of continuity for all her people. Despite her tender years, at the beginning of her reign she was admired by even her most experienced subjects. All of us have trembled at making our maiden speech in this Chamber, but nothing we have done could compare with her first gracious Speech from that Throne. Yet, following that first Queen’s Speech, the then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Viscount Swinton—a man who had first entered the Cabinet before she was even born—spoke for the whole House when he said that describing the Speech as gracious was not simply a formality but,

“the true word for all the Queen is and all she does”.—[Official Report, 4/11/1952; col. 20.]

As she has grown older, she has remained just as admired by successive generations. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge said on his recent state visit to India that Her Majesty is a “guiding force” for her family, and her contemporaries have looked to her to see how to respond to a changing world. She has innovated to bring the monarch closer to the people, her Christmas message of 1957 being the first to be transmitted live. She pioneered the royal walkabout and last year she sent her first tweet. The fact that she remains as relevant today as ever is testament to her enduring values of decency, honesty, humility and honour.

What is truly remarkable about Her Majesty’s commitment is that she continues to serve with a zest and undimmed sense of public duty. Last year she carried out 306 engagements in the UK and 35 overseas —a workload that would be daunting to someone even half her age. As Head of State, she fulfils her constitutional position with distinction. Uniquely among those who give public service, her commitment is beyond question.

As we mark this milestone birthday, Her Majesty would no doubt want us to acknowledge the lifelong support of her family, not least that of His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh, who remains always by her side. Indeed, those remarkable photographs that we have seen published this week show just what family means to Her Majesty.

As we look forward to the many events that will celebrate Her Majesty’s 90th birthday between now and June, many noble Lords will choose to pay tribute in their own way. Your Lordships may have noticed that my noble friend the Chief Whip is not in his usual place today. Instead, as Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, he is at Windsor Castle, presenting Her Majesty with a sheaf of a new variety of daffodils. These have been raised—that is the term that I am told is used—in honour of her birthday and registered with the Royal Horticultural Society. Appropriately, these daffodils are named “Gentleman at Arms”. My noble friend has taken them to Her Majesty and intends to offer her the warm wishes of those on all Benches in this House.

I know that all noble Lords will join me in wishing Her Majesty a very happy 90th birthday. I beg to move this Motion for a humble Address to Her Majesty.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity to follow the noble Baroness and to speak on behalf of these Benches to wish Her Majesty the Queen a very happy 90th birthday and to support the humble Address.

For many of us, milestone birthdays are a time for reflection, but when that birthday is a 90th and a whole life has been spent in the public eye in public service, that reflection has an added dimension. Like all of us, Her Majesty the Queen will have many personal memories of births and deaths, and of people, places and events. While her life has brought more privilege and opportunities than most, she has also known the highs and the lows, and the joys and the sadnesses that normal family life brings. As the noble Baroness also said, it is impossible to reflect on the role of the Queen without recognition of her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh—outspoken, sometimes irreverent and at all times totally human, his support has been vital.

The late King George VI, with his sense of public responsibility during the Second World War, had a huge influence on his daughter. I am sure he would take immense pride in how she has conducted herself and shaped the role of our longest serving monarch.

This 90th birthday is a time for public celebration and public reflection. It is not just here at home but across the world that those with memories of the Queen will share them—memories of a visit, a conversation or even just a comment.

As the noble Baroness said, when Princess Elizabeth Alexandra Mary was born on this day in 1926 in London, few could have predicted the life that lay before her. At that time, she was third in line to the Throne, because the then Prince of Wales had not yet met Mrs Simpson and started the chain of events that led to the Queen’s father becoming King. Yet the responsibility is one that she readily absorbed, making her first radio broadcast in 1940 at the age of 14, as the noble Baroness referred to, on BBC “Children’s Hour”, to the children evacuated overseas during the Second World War.

With thousands of other young women, she qualified as a mechanic and driver with the ATS. For the time, that was quite bold and daring for a princess and not a decision that the Government were at all happy about, believing that her most important training should be as heir to the Throne, not as a mechanic. Her determination and persistence in insisting that she wanted to serve her country was a clear indication that she would become a Queen who would bring her own style and make her own way. So on VE Day, the two royal princesses were as keen as anyone to celebrate the peace. Her Majesty has spoken about joining the crowds in Whitehall, where they mingled anonymously with those linking arms and celebrating the end of the war. In a world without selfies or mobiles, I wonder how many thought that the two attractive young women partying with them looked just like Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret.

In the aftermath of the Second World War, as with the first, the royal families from across Europe found that as time moved on so did they. In those post-war years, the monarchies of Bulgaria, Portugal and many other countries ceased to exist. But here in the UK, a country that has known just a very short-lived republic in the 17th century, the monarchy has not just survived but has increased in popularity. We should recognise and happily acknowledge that such success is to the enormous credit of the Queen and the way she has conducted herself and undertaken the role—a role for which there is no manual or guide.

In the age of Twitter, “Celebrity Big Brother” and, at times, the sharing of private moments far too publicly, it is refreshing and enormously valued and respected that Her Majesty the Queen has never spoken out publicly of her views on a political or policy issue. She has maintained a dignified privacy of thought and displayed strict impartiality. If it was frustrating at times, it never showed.

The 12 Prime Ministers who have had weekly audience with the Queen have found a willing listener and someone whose discretion they can rely on absolutely: no leaks, no Tweets, just absolute confidence. Those who have attended Privy Council meetings will recognise that businesslike approach.

Some will have heard of the Labour Minister who, while standing as business was conducted, suddenly heard her mobile phone ringing very loudly from the very large handbag at her feet. Hugely embarrassed, she dived into the bag and desperately rummaged until she eventually and triumphantly retrieved the phone and silenced it. Her Majesty looked at her and sympathised: “Oh dear, I do hope it wasn’t anyone important”. I do not think either of them will ever talk to me again.

That dry sense of humour has become very evident over the years. At the opening of the Docklands Light Railway, shortly after her election in 1987, the late Mildred Gordon MP was asked by the Queen how she liked her new job. She responded that she felt that she had little power to help her constituents. The Queen replied understandingly, “Once they find out that you lot can’t help them, they all write to me”.

The fascination with the life of the Queen is magnified overseas, and often the most die-hard republicans show an admiration for her role. Many will recall the somewhat bizarre pirouette of the former Canadian Prime Minister, Pierre Trudeau, behind the Queen in 1977—although he later also spoke of his respect. Just last week, almost 40 years later, the current Canadian Prime Minister and Pierre Trudeau’s son, Justin Trudeau, met Her Majesty and paid a glowing tribute. You had to smile as one onlooker observed, “The hereditary principle is alive and well”.

There are other well-known people who also celebrate their 90th birthdays this year: Sir David Attenborough, the singer Tony Bennett and Fidel Castro. In those 90 years, the world has seen massive social and cultural change. In technology, John Logie Baird had only just demonstrated his new invention, the mechanical television, yet last Christmas, the Queen’s Christmas message had more viewers than any other programme on Christmas Day, even “Downton Abbey”—I was looking for the noble Lord, Lord Fellowes, but fortunately he is not here. In 1926, the first transatlantic telephone call was made from London to New York, the first red telephone box was installed and the national grid was set up. In that same year, the League of Nations convention abolished all slavery—so it seems so disappointing that, almost 90 years later, we had to bring in our own Modern Slavery Act. While this week we debated and sought to improve the Government’s Trade Union Bill, it was tougher in 1926, when we had martial law on the streets in response to a general strike.

So times have changed, but values have not. The British Royal Family is one of the most traditional institutions in the world, yet if we stand back and reflect on the past 90 years, both the 90 years of the Queen’s life and more than 60 years of her reign, we see significant changes. Many politicians would give their right arm for her approval ratings. She has perceptively, skilfully and without fanfare guided the monarchy into the 21st century. It is clear that Her Majesty values not just the monarchy of today but that of the future, and has encouraged and supported her children and grandchildren in undertaking official engagements and public service.

For some in your Lordships’ House, she has been the Queen for our entire lives. Many of us do not remember any other monarch. She is the figurehead of our nation, and I hope that our tributes today convey something of the high personal esteem in which she is held. So today is a day for celebration. Happy birthday, Ma’am.

Strathclyde Review

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, one thing that I know that we all agree on, from the many conversations I have had with noble Lords from around this House, is that we must protect this House’s role as an effective revising Chamber that holds the Government to account. I understand some of the points that the noble Lord makes, along with those that have been made by some of the committees of this House, and I will reflect on all the things that have been put forward. I think that it is premature for us to commission another review before the Government have responded to the review that they commissioned from my noble friend Lord Strathclyde. I need to be clear to the House that the Government are seeking something which is in the interest not just of the Government but of Parliament as a whole; that is, that the elected House has the final say on all legislation.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, yet again, the noble Baroness seems to misunderstand how statutory instruments operate. They are not a matter between the House of Commons and the House of Lords but a matter between the Executive and Parliament. This issue strikes fundamentally at the very heart of what this House does. We have a responsibility to scrutinise not just primary but secondary legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has already pointed out that all three of these Select Committees of your Lordships’ House, all chaired by government party Peers, have totally rejected all the Strathclyde options. The noble Baroness says that she will reflect on the reports and come back to the House “in due course”. Can I ask her to take her time in reflecting on the information in those reports—they bear weight and are very interesting—but then, in the next Session of Parliament, provide time for debate? However, if the speculation about legislation to enforce Strathclyde is true, will she give an undertaking today for an early debate prior to the Queen’s Speech?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as I have already said, the Government are considering carefully all the options that are in my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s review. We will take account of what has been included in the reports of the various Select Committees of this House. When we reach a decision, we will publish our response, but we have not yet reached our decision.

Panama Papers

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 11th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as always, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord for their remarks. Before I respond to some of the specific questions that they put to me, I want to re-emphasise a couple of points in the Prime Minister’s Statement. While David Cameron has been Prime Minister of this country, we have done more to tackle tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance than any Government before we came to power. Some of the evidence to illustrate the impact of our action has already been highlighted. We made 40 tax changes to close off loopholes which have brought in £12 billion. We have brought in £2 billion from offshore tax evaders since 2010. One of the points which is worth me highlighting, which has not been fully recognised, is that all this action, whether on tax avoidance or on closing tax loopholes generally, means that the gap between tax owed and tax paid is now at its narrowest point ever. That illustrates how much we believe in making sure that people pay the taxes they owe and that the actions we have taken have had a positive effect.

We have been leading efforts worldwide; it is not just about the things that we have done in this country. Thanks to the work of the UK, more than 90 countries have signed up to the automatic exchange of information. That means that agencies such as HMRC can now pursue avoiders and evaders in ways that they have never been able to before. Our determination to tackle corporate secrecy by shining a light on beneficial owners is going to be game-changing. I get civil servants briefing me on some of these technical matters, and when you start asking questions, you realise just how different things will be when all these measures are in place. I do not think that that has been properly understood and recognised. It is the right thing for us to do.

The anti-corruption summit that the Prime Minister will be hosting next month is the first one ever, and it follows from him taking the lead at the G8 in 2013. The noble and learned Lord is right that while we did a lot when we were in coalition with the Lib Dems, there is more to do and we will continue to pursue this while we are in government because it is absolutely the right thing for us to do.

I turn to the specific questions asked by the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord. I was asked about the new criminal offence. I would not want to say that the Lib Dems in coalition or indeed Danny Alexander should take credit in quite the same universal way that the noble and learned Lord was trying to claim in his remarks, but it is true to say that this is a new criminal offence, previously announced, and a lot of work has been undertaken in consultation to prepare for this legislation. That is a good thing. It is good that it has taken time for this to come through and that it has been widely consulted upon. It is not a knee-jerk reaction to any of the events of the past week; it will be properly thought-through new legislation. It will be part of the Queen’s Speech, and we will hear more about that when we introduce the legislation later this year.

The noble Baroness asked me why further consultation on the legislation was necessary. I do not think we are trying to pursue further consultation. The consultation has happened and we have produced a written response to it. As she would expect, as we finalise legislation—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

This is a Statement and I am responding to questions. If there is more information on this that I can provide afterwards then I will write to the noble Baroness if there is something specific.

The noble Baroness asked about the European Commission and what was described as the Prime Minister blocking something that the European Commission wanted to pursue by way of disclosure of the beneficiaries of trusts. At the time that the Prime Minister wrote his letter, the Government were concerned that what was proposed by the commission, which included all trusts, would distract from action against those areas of most concern, such as shell companies, and in practice these further changes were not achievable. In the subsequent negotiations we were able to secure a sensible way forward that ensures that trusts that generate tax consequences have to report their ownership to HMRC. In layman’s terms, I would say that that means the automatic exchange of information will very much provide the data and the information that are needed for the relevant agencies to pursue tax avoidance and evasion.

The noble Baroness asked about bearer shares. In the same letter to the noble Baroness I will provide further detail on the new legislation if I can, but it is fair to say that there are very few countries now that permit the issuance of bearer shares as a result of the work of the global forum on tax transparency, which we were very much in the lead on.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, asked about some specific issues, most of which I think I have covered. He asked about the collection by Crown dependencies and overseas territories of data that will be available to our law enforcement agencies in this country. We are going to publish our own public register of beneficial ownership. The Crown dependencies and overseas territories will for the first time be collecting the data and making them available to the United Kingdom. I am not able to answer the noble and learned Lord’s specific question except to say to him, as the Prime Minister made clear in his Statement, that what these Crown dependencies and overseas territories are now committed to doing on the collection of data for us on their beneficial ownership—and, I should add, doing it with regard to the automatic exchange of information a year earlier than any of the other countries that have signed up to doing this—is something that many of our partner countries, such as states in the United States of America, do not even collate. The overseas territories and Crown dependencies are going to be collating it. That is a very big step forward, and we will continue to make all the progress that we can to ensure that in this country we go after aggressive tax avoidance. We will pursue every avenue that we possibly can.

House of Lords: Government Review

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s review will examine how to protect the ability of elected Governments to secure their business in Parliament. In particular, it will consider how to secure the decisive role of the elected House of Commons in relation to its primacy on financial matters and secondary legislation. My noble friend will be supported in that work by a small panel of experts and we expect the review to conclude swiftly. The membership of the panel will be communicated to both Houses as soon as it is agreed.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, last night the Government issued a statement—to the press, rather than to your Lordships’ House—to say that they were setting up this review. They do not seem to have got very far with any work on what it actually is. As the noble Baroness said, it is to ensure that the Government can secure government business. The Government made clear that they intend to review the powers and processes of this House. The noble Baroness called it the review of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. My understanding is that it is a government review undertaken by the noble Lord.

It is obvious that the impetus for this was the Government losing two votes on Monday on the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Hollis and of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. Prior to that vote, we heard the Government threaten first that this House would be suspended; then that the Government would make 150 new Conservative Peers; or that they would clip our wings. Clearly, the Government intend to clip our wings. Less than six months into a new Parliament, the Government are trying to change the rules to ensure that they will not lose a vote again.

Clearly, some in government have very short memories. If noble Lords look back at the number and content of the defeats endured by Labour Governments, it is clear how very little justification there is for this move. It is a gross overreaction. I am not against a review. We have called for a constitutional convention to address much wider issues that affect your Lordships’ House, but any review must be in the public interest and not for short-term party-political gain.

I do not think that the noble Baroness really answered my question, but I will press her on membership. She said that there will be a small panel to assist the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. Will she confirm whether that will be a cross-party panel or merely a Conservative panel? Will she tell us when it will report and to whom?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, on Monday this House withheld its approval from a financial measure—that is what happened. The measure had been approved three times by the other place. That has never happened before. Monday was a significant day for this House and the events on Monday justify the review. It is a government review about how elected Governments can secure their business when an established convention has been put in doubt. The noble Baroness made reference to a constitutional convention. What the Government have done by asking my noble friend to lead this review is to simply look at the issues arising from the events on Monday. It is limited and it is focused. My noble friend will have at his disposal a panel of experts and, as he said himself today, he will talk to other political parties. Ultimately, we are trying to ensure that elected Governments can be confident that they can secure their business, when that business has had the support of the elected other place.

Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this has been a quite extraordinary debate. It is unusual for your Lordships’ House to find itself at the centre of such a ferocious policy and constitutional debate as it does today. It is also extraordinary and unusual that, on a matter that affects the Department for Work and Pensions and the Treasury, we have no Treasury or DWP Minister addressing your Lordships’ House today. I can understand why: the Government feel more comfortable talking about constitutional issues in this regard than they do about the impact of this policy. We all understand that. Again, it was extraordinary that the noble Baroness the Leader of the House supported an amendment to her policy by supporting the right reverend Prelate’s amendment. So there have been some quite extraordinary scenes and what we are seeing today is unprecedented. It is good to see the noble Earl, Lord Howe—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. It is important that she does so because she has incorrectly interpreted what I said. I was very clear that the Government do not support any amendment to their Motion. I said that the right reverend Prelate had brought forward his concerns in a way that was consistent with the conventions and the proper role of this House.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I think that that is a bit of an angels-on-pinheads defence, but I take the point that she makes.

I suspect that when the noble Earl, Lord Howe, took on the role of defence Minister, he did not think that his job would be defending all government policies across the House, as he is being asked to do today.

We have been asked to approve the Government’s tax credit order, and we are unable to do so. The reasons for that have been very carefully laid out. Our view is that these are pernicious regulations that do enormous damage. Overnight, at a sweep, they would dramatically cut the income of some of the poorest in society: those who are working hard and doing what the Government say is the “right thing”. About 3 million people will be affected by these cuts. Like many other noble Lords, I have had emails and letters from those who are likely to be affected: from nurses, teachers, cleaners and firefighters—people working hard, trying to raise a family. They are terrified by what lies before them; they do not know how they are going to cope. The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, echoed some of the emails that I have received when she talked about those who have disabilities being moved into work and finding it so much better for them.

When my noble friend Lady Hollis spoke to her amendment, the House was silent. We could have heard a pin drop as we listened to what these cuts will really mean and the impact that they will have on people across this country. I think that the House was shocked and upset by the information that she provided today. However, she also provided a way through.

The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, said that tax credits have increased to £30 billion. They have; that is part of their success. In almost equal measure, we have seen income support reduce as people went into work. Therefore, they were no longer on income support but were receiving tax credits—that was the success of the measure. Income support went down as people moved into work and received tax credits to reflect their circumstances and help them to work. We have always been told that the way out of poverty is work, and that is what those people on tax credits have done; they have moved into work.

It may be that some people cannot imagine what it is like to lose £25 or £30 a week from their income. For a lot of people out there, the loss of that £25 or £30 a week—in some cases much more—would be devastating. It would mean not putting in the money for heating this winter when it gets colder; it would mean not getting the kids new school shoes; it would mean making the kinds of choices that we should never place on families.

This is a highly contentious area, but it is the policy that is important. Having said that, there are conventional and constitutional issues, which noble Lords have raised, that have given some concern. It would, as we have heard, normally be expected for a measure of this nature and magnitude to be introduced by primary legislation. Thus, a government Bill would go through all the stages that such a Bill goes through and there would be the opportunity to debate it, put amendments to it and vote on those amendments. There would be opportunity to make revisions and to listen to the concerns that were raised. One has to wonder why the Government did not take that route. They could have applied financial privilege, which would have stopped all this, but they have chosen to deal with this measure through a statutory instrument.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I can certainly help. In 2002, the legislation that went through that allowed for amendments to tax credits legislation to be made by statutory instruments or delegated legislation was so that normal uprating, for example, could be applied. It was for minor changes and normal uprating. However, major policy changes would not normally be made by these kinds of regulations. Furthermore, as I said earlier in my intervention on the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, the legislation in 2002 was not itself subject to financial privilege. But now we have a Government saying that the secondary legislation that follows on from that should be subject to financial privilege. I hope that that addresses the concerns that the noble and learned Baroness has raised. I give way to the noble Baroness yet again.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

An important point for the House to understand is that the original Bill—the Tax Credits Act 2002—was not certified as a money Bill because it included changes to the administration of the welfare system. Had it just been about the financial measures that we are debating, it would probably have been certified as a money Bill. It was the addition of administration that caused it not to be certified as a money Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

They would not, because certification of a Bill is done by the Speaker.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

In some ways, the Minister makes my point for me. Major issues and changes such as this are undertaken in primary legislation—a case she made for what happened in 2002. It is unusual to make such major changes in secondary legislation. But let us leave that to one side, if we may.

Anybody in the real world listening to us talk today would wonder what on earth we are on about—primary legislation, secondary legislation, delegated legislation, affirmatives and negatives. What really matters is the impact it has and applying a common-sense approach to what is before us today. We know, as parliamentarians, that SIs are more normally used for that specific detail of legislation that we have passed already or for issues following primary legislation where the principle has already been approved into law. As I have said, they can be very properly used for normal uprating in tax credits, and I made the point about 2002 to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay.

The proposal before us today goes way beyond that normal kind of uprating. It is a major policy change that, in the first place, the Government promised not to do. The route that the Government have chosen is not illegal or the wrong route, but there are consequences of taking it. If the Government try to truncate the process, so as not to have that full consideration in the House of Lords, yet at the same time allow this House, through the normal constitutional procedures of your Lordships’ House, to debate and discuss the proposal and the kinds of amendments that we have before us today, it is quite clear that the amendment from my noble friend Lady Hollis is not a fatal amendment, whatever the Minister and her colleagues may think. She has had advice from the clerks and has made numerous references. It is no good the Leader shaking her head at me; the evidence is there and it is very clear cut.

If the Government had gone down the normal route, they would have claimed financial privilege and we would not be here today, and there would have been further debates in the House of Commons. MPs from across the House privately, and now publicly, admit that this goes too far, too quickly and causes too much harm.

The amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Hollis is what I refer to as the common-sense, practical approach. It can really make a difference and is in line with what most people in this country are asking for: 60% of the population today are reported to want to see a U-turn or change in this policy. That is what my noble friend is seeking to do. Her amendment calls on the House to reject these proposals as they stand and for Ministers to come back with a proposed scheme to protect those already getting tax credits for at least three years—that is all of them.

If the amendment is passed, what happens next? The onus is then on the Government to take the proposals away and reconsider. The Government can bring forward new proposals for consideration. The policy would not, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, intimated, disappear into the ether—that is a matter for the Government. If they are committed to doing something, the Government can bring new proposals to your Lordships’ House or choose to bring forward new primary legislation. However, if they failed to bring anything back at all, it would mean that they could not proceed with these cuts, would have to look for another route and would have to reconsider their policy. No Government ever have the wisdom such that they are right all the time. This House is right to ask the other place and the Government to reconsider, to pause and to try to get it right.

House of Lords: Appointments

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right to highlight the importance of all Members of your Lordships’ House conducting themselves in a way that contributes to the very serious role we all have. I know that all noble Lords in this House take their responsibilities very seriously, and all those new Peers joining us at this time are very mindful of those responsibilities—as is the Prime Minister, in terms of the role of this House in scrutinising legislation. That is something that we feel very strongly about.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, if the press reports are to be believed, the House of Commons Appointments Commission will be very busy. As the Minister knows, we have totally opposed the Government’s plans on tax credits and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, will be asking this House not to support government proposals until they include changes that address the concerns that have been raised across this House, including by members of her own party. As the Minister also knows, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, is entirely reasonable and—as confirmed by the House authorities—is in accordance with the conventions and role of our House. The Government are now threatening to either suspend your Lordships’ House or to create 150 new Conservative Peers to ensure that they never lose again. Does she consider this to be an appropriate, statesmanlike response or a gross and irresponsible overreaction, particularly since government estimates indicate the cost to the public purse will be around half a billion pounds? Would that money not be better spent on mitigating these awful cuts?

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the noble Baroness and I have to say that I had a sense of déjà vu. I had heard a lot of the content of that speech before because it was similar to previous ones. I do not intend to raise all the constitutional arguments that I have raised before. Other noble Lords are far better qualified that I am to address such issues. Perhaps I may say that the concern of this House is not how these measures will operate in the House of Commons. A lot of the noble Baroness’s speech was devoted to how they affect how legislation is dealt with in the House of Commons. The concern expressed by your Lordships’ House is how it impacts on how we address issues and our role. I do not consider that that was addressed properly.

When the noble Baroness came to the end of her comments, she did not address the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, which are of enormous concern. As she knows, any Government have a right to get their legislation through. They are unable to do so if they lose the right over their taxation powers for the UK. I suggest she comes back to that at the end of her comments because it was rather confused. She used the word “clarify” a number of times. She said that the proposal was pragmatic and proportionate, which has left me feeling rather puzzled.

The noble Baroness will recall our conversations in September just prior to the September sitting, for which this debate was originally scheduled. She made a decision to remove the debate on this issue from the September sitting and instead have a debate on the size of your Lordships’ House. We did not concur with the judgment on that but she explained that one of the reasons she did not want this debate during that sitting was because we had not yet had a response from the House of Commons to our request for a Joint Committee to look at this issue. Last Friday, I wrote to the noble Baroness—the letter was delivered to her office—to ask her whether I was right to assume that a response was now available since the debate had been rescheduled for today. I have not had a response. Neither am I aware of there having been any response from the House of Commons to your Lordships’ House on that request. I know that there is a debate tomorrow but that is not the issue. Why are we having the debate today? What has changed since September? Perhaps I can answer my own question: if we are very clear about it, the only reason we have this debate today is because tomorrow there is to be a debate in the House of Commons and the Government have tabled pages and pages of amendments to the Standing Orders to be voted on. Therefore, this convoluted and complicated measure will be voted on in the House of Commons tomorrow, without any response having been received by this House to our request for a Joint Committee.

I note what the noble Baroness said about Graham Allen’s amendment on the setting up of a Joint Committee and how that would inform this House, but that will be tomorrow. We will not have the benefit at all of knowing the view of the House of Commons on this debate. I ask her to explain why the debate was scheduled for today when we have no response from the House of Commons and it is not debating the matter until tomorrow. I do not think that her response was good enough. I presume that she talks and liaises with Chris Grayling, the Leader of the Commons. It is very unfortunate that the Government’s choice of timetable for debates in the House of Commons has not provided the opportunity before this debate to have the debate on the specific issue of whether it would have a Joint Committee with your Lordships’ House to look at the implications. Why could that not have been done before now and before our debate? It would have been very helpful for informing this debate.

As the noble Lords, Lord Butler and Lord Lisvane, have said previously, there is no urgency about these changes. That is what I do not quite understand about why there is this rush for the debate tomorrow. The changes proposed by the Government will not make any difference in this Parliament. It would have been courteous to this House, as well as for good governance, for the Government to have allowed the House of Commons a full debate at our request. That worries me because it appears that we have a Government who do not like scrutiny or challenge, which are very important in ensuring good governance and good legislation.

I would be very happy to be corrected on this and I hope that the noble Baroness can do so but I am pretty sure that the Government will be whipping their MPs to vote against a Joint Committee when this is debated tomorrow. If she can tell me otherwise, I would be very grateful. I would give way instantly to allow her to correct me on whether the Prime Minister is whipping his Members to vote against a Joint Committee with your Lordships’ House.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness is asking me to provide information on whipping arrangements in the other place. The point I make to the noble Baroness and to the House—I have already made it—is that I was very clear when we debated this matter in the summer that we as a Government did not support a Joint Committee to look at the constitutional implications of these measures. We felt, and still feel, that there is no perfect solution to English votes for English laws, and that it is of great importance and goes to the heart of delivering fairness within the United Kingdom. We have come forward with a set of proposals which build on the many different debates that there have been on this matter. We want to implement them and ensure that they are properly reviewed after they have been tested in real time in this Parliament. That was our position then; it remains our position now. Clearly, it is for the House of Commons to consider the message that we sent and I am pleased that an MP has tabled an amendment in order for the House of Commons to consider that issue. But it is the Government’s position that we do not support a Joint Committee.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I always like to be helpful to the noble Baroness and give way when she asks, although it might have been better for her if I had not given her the opportunity on that occasion. Without being too unkind, she consistently refers to “we” and the Government. I understand that. But in this case—the proposal for the Joint Committee—the “we” in question is her role as Leader of this House. I say that in all sincerity. All I was asking was whether the Government were whipping their Members to vote against a Joint Committee, which would be very helpful to know. It was not a party-political issue when it was raised. It was raised by all parties and no parties.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I apologise for detaining the House and to the noble Baroness for intervening—which I rarely do—but I want to make sure that I understand this for the sake of clarity. She talks about the voice of English MPs being heard, but it seems to me that this is about significantly more than that. An amendment passed by your Lordships’ House, whatever the size of the majority—such as the one on a Joint Committee which passed by 101 votes—would go to the House of Commons. It could be passed by the House of Commons, but a subset of MPs—the English MPs—would then have a veto. It is not just a voice—that would be an extra Committee stage, a discussion or a debate. This is a veto, and they would be able to say, “No we do not accept that”, even though it would have gone through the House of Lords and the entire House of Commons, and send it back to the House of Lords. So it does impact on your Lordships’ House. It is not just a case of being sent back by the whole House of Commons to be reconsidered; it is a subset of MPs who have a veto—not a voice—who send it back. It does impact on how we work, as we would be asked to reconsider something that we would not otherwise have been asked to reconsider.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The House of Commons as a whole clearly needs to consider what this House has put forward, and I am sure that we will want to know, when we are considering what comes back to us, not just what the English are saying. We will want to hear.

I come back to what I said earlier. We have come forward with a set of proposals which build on the many different forums that have considered how to implement English votes for English laws. We believe that it is a pragmatic proposal that will allow that to happen. We will review it once it has been operating; we cannot wait for ever to find a perfect solution—I am not sure that one exists—but I believe that we have come up with a clear way forward.

House of Lords Reform

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I hope that, in the remarks that I am about to make before I conclude, I will be able to give the noble Baroness some more assurance. All I have tried to do in my remarks in the past few minutes is to highlight that starting with some things—if we were to start at that juncture—would mean us biting off more than we could chew. I am absolutely committed to making some progress in this area. There is the political will from me, and there have been signs of that from the Opposition and the Liberal Democrat Benches. Although the Convenor is not here this evening, I know that the same feeling is there.

We need to make progress, and I think the noble Baroness has given us a compelling example of how we can best make progress through the legislation that she so successfully achieved in the previous Parliament. We have to take steps and we have to set the direction of travel, but we have to start somewhere. We will start by coming together with the group leaders, as I have already said, soon after the Conference Recess.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, as I had hoped not to have to intervene. She has rightly said that the Official Opposition are keen to have such talks to make progress. However, I asked several questions about the role and commitment of the Prime Minister and some other issues around these talks, but she has not responded to any of them. Can she please do so in writing?

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Lord and I had exchanges on this matter only recently just before the Recess, when I reminded him that the Bill to which he refers did not succeed in leaving the House of Commons. In our manifesto, we made it clear that that is not a priority for this Parliament. We see it as a priority to address the size of the House, and that is where we will focus our energies

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will have heard the views expressed from across your Lordships’ House about size. I have to say that it is not enough to suggest, as she did in her recent article, that Peers should turn up less often. If we are effectively to address this matter, which we believe we should, it cannot be against a backdrop of more and more appointments. This Prime Minister has appointed more Peers per year than any other Prime Minister, with a greater proportion of Peers to the government Benches and fewer Opposition and Cross-Bench Peers. What discussions has the noble Baroness had with the Prime Minister on this issue? Did they discuss the constitutional convention? Does he recognise that if meaningful change is to be made, he cannot continue with the scale and number of his appointments?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness knows my party’s position on a constitutional convention. We do not feel that that is a priority at this time. For me, as Leader of the House, it is important that we are an effective Chamber and that we make a very important contribution to the legislative process. It is right to focus on attendance rather than absolute numbers because the average rate of attendance is under 500. As effective Peers, we make our contributions when our experience and expertise are relevant to the matter at hand.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I say to my noble friend and the House as a whole what I have already said: we should take advantage of this period of stability. If proposals come forward that are workable and attract consensus, I am all ears and will listen very carefully to what noble Lords put forward.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The Leader will be aware of the speculation about the size of the list of new Peers. Unfair it may be, but the size of your Lordships’ House is often used to attack its effectiveness. If we continue to grow at the same rate in this Parliament as we did in the previous Parliament, by the time of the next election we could have more than 1,000 Peers.

The Leader has rejected a constitutional convention so may I seek common ground with her on two points? How do we promote the role of your Lordships’ House as an essential revising and scrutinising Chamber, and what is the impact of the ever-increasing numbers on our effectiveness? Will she agree to some honest, thoughtful consideration over the Summer Recess and come back in September with some thoughts on how to progress, and perhaps even look at having a Leader’s Group to look into this issue?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I do continue to consider these matters. However, while there was an increase in the number of Peers during the last Parliament, there was also a reduction. People have retired. When I was last in front of your Lordships answering questions on the topic, I said that 27 Peers had opted for retirement. Now we are up to 30 and I believe that, with those who are already committed to retirement, that will increase to 32. I will reflect very hard over the summer on a range of different things and will continue to listen very carefully to what proposals might come forward.

Palace of Westminster Committee

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 9th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords for the points that have been made in this short debate. I shall address the questions that have been put. First, on the membership of the committee, the Motion today sets the wheels in motion for a committee to be established. Membership of the committee is not yet finalised. I take on board the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, about the quality of representation from this House and indeed its equality. We will put together a strong team to represent the interests of this House. Clearly, once I have had confirmation from the Commons of which people it intends to field on the committee, that will be reflected on before we finalise the membership of the committee as regards its representation from here.

On the way in which we proceed, there will certainly be equality in numbers on that committee, which will be a Joint Committee of both Houses. The intention is that the Joint Committee will be co-chaired by myself and the Leader of the House of Commons, primarily so that we ensure—as I said when this matter was raised here a few months ago—that this House is in no way considered in any way subordinate when we discuss matters of this kind. I very much see it as my responsibility as Leader of this House to ensure that the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, referred to with regard to the education centre is not repeated.

Once the committee is established, clearly we will want to interrogate very thoroughly the report that was produced by the independent consultants and published a couple of weeks ago. Ultimately, it will be for both Houses of Parliament to take the decision on the way forward on restoration and renewal, and I will certainly want to consider carefully the process between the committee being set up and its work starting, to the point at which we make a decision by way of a full debate and Division in each House. It is of course important that I and all others who sit on that committee from this House can properly understand and are able to take into account the views of Members as we carry out our work. Therefore I hope that I can give noble Lords the reassurance they are looking for in responding to those points.

On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on English votes for English laws, I do not intend to divert from the topic of this Motion, but I refer him to the Statement I repeated in your Lordships’ House last Thursday, and to the points I made in response to the questions in that debate. The key point was that with regard to any decisions made in the House of Commons to change their procedures, whatever happens down there will not affect the authority or the processes in this House. However, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has secured a Question for Short Debate next Thursday, and no doubt we will be able to discuss this matter further at that time.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, on a point of clarity with regard to the first issue of the Joint Committee of the Lords and Commons, my understanding, from all the conversations I have had with the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, is that there will be completely equal representation between both Houses. I think that she has heard the mood of the House—that is what this House expects. I think she said that that was likely, but she did not give the guarantee that the House is seeking. Can I therefore press her, because that is my understanding of the present situation anyway, to give a guarantee that there will be equal representation between both Houses?

On the noble Baroness’s second point, in which she responded to my noble friend Lord Grocott, as much as we welcome the QSD in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, next week on 16 July, that does not replace the need for a proper debate on the proposals for English votes for English laws, which impact on the work of your Lordships’ House. It is all very well for the noble Baroness to say, “We are not affected by it”, but we are. It affects how legislation is conducted in Parliament, and we are part of that process. I know that when she responded to the debate on the Statement the Government made last week she rejected the notion, but she will have heard that noble Lords across the House are very concerned at the lack of debate in this House on that issue, and I urge her to reconsider. It is the view of the Official Opposition and, I think, of other noble Lords around this House, that there should be a full debate, perhaps on a Motion that can be divided on as well. To deny this House the opportunity to debate this in government time is totally unacceptable.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

Further to the point made by the Leader of the Opposition, I understand that in another place the Government have decided not to go ahead with the changes to Standing Orders next week but to have a two-day debate on them. Does that not strengthen the case for there also being a full debate in this House, in addition to the Question for Short Debate?

House of Lords: Appointments

Debate between Baroness Stowell of Beeston and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 25th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the size of the House, it is worth our being aware of two points. First, since permanent retirement was made available to Peers last August, 27 noble Lords have retired. That is a far greater number than people expected when we brought in that provision. To me, that shows a good direction of travel; I am sure that a trend is now being set and more will follow. Secondly, the statistics for attendance in the previous Session show that the numbers are starting to go down.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, in opposition David Cameron pledged to cut the cost of politics, including by cutting the number of Members of Parliament in the other place. The noble Baroness talks about the numbers in this House, but is she aware that each year in government the Prime Minister has appointed more Members of your Lordships’ House than any Prime Minister in my lifetime, with more from the government parties than any Prime Minister in my lifetime? How does that contribute to cutting the cost of politics? How many more new Conservative government Peers does she expect on her Benches?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I remind the noble Baroness that the peerages created in the previous Parliament by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister included 47 Labour Peers. I remind her and all noble Lords that the cost of this House in the previous Parliament went down by about 13%. As individual Peers, we must not forget that we cost four times less per head than Members of the other place.