Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeal) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Lord Jones

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her incisive and always-informed remarks.

At paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, the word “consistent” is used. A consistent approach is to be welcomed. However, can the Minister tell us about the ASG—that is, the advisory steering group? Who heads it? It looks very formal. It is advisory but shall its members be paid? Do we know what amount the group’s members receive? Are there any names of which the Committee might be informed? We need information regarding the names concerning the representative ex-service and service communities. One does not want the high and mighty of law and government ministries leaning heavily on the humbler members of the ASG. If the MoD is involved, rank will be a consideration. The judiciary also carries weight. On membership, does everyone have an equal voice?

At paragraph 7.2, we learn of appeals. Might the Minister flesh this point out by instancing an appeal case? What might it entail?

On paragraph 7.4, how many appeals were heard in 2021 and, if it is possible for the Minister to say, 2022? Again, I thank the Minister for her remarks.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, often in your Lordships’ House—and I mean your Lordships’ House, not Grand Committee, as I have not forgotten where I am—we spend a lot of time looking at primary legislation and saying that we need better scrutiny, that we should not have Henry VIII clauses, that we do not want framework legislation and that we need to be able to scrutinise statutory instruments very closely. The assumption is that the Government, on occasion, are perhaps trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

We do not get framework legislation with lots of Henry VIII clauses from the MoD, but we do from other ministries, so we will perhaps exonerate the MoD from this. Here we have a statutory instrument that looks so straightforward that one almost wonders why it needs to be here, other than that we had agreed in the Armed Forces Act 2021 that we should scrutinise such a statutory instrument. In asking whether this should be considered debated and approved, it is a straightforward statutory instrument, as it is only right that service personnel and veterans who are seeking to appeal, whether they are from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, are treated in the same way. The basic principle seems straightforward: everyone in the four nations of the United Kingdom should be treated the same.

I have a similar question to one from the noble Lord, Lord Jones, about the number of appeals we are thinking about—not necessarily in 2021 or 2022. Are we talking about very large numbers or is this seem primarily as a tidying-up exercise? It would be useful to know that and have a sense, looking back 15 years from 2008 to 2023, of whether many people have been done a disservice because they were in Scotland and Northern Ireland and were not able to appeal between months 13 and 24, whereas they would have been able to in England or Wales.

I like the idea of the Lord Chancellor’s steering group but agree that it would be interesting to know more about its basis and whether it is intended as a long-term body.

I have a final question. We have occasionally had other tidying-up amendments. Is the Minister sanguine about the fact that other tidying-up legislation might need to be brought forward if there are other disparities that could be doing a disservice to service personnel or veterans from one part of the United Kingdom compared to those from other parts?

Armed Forces (Covenant) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Lord Jones

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to rise after the noble and gallant Lord, who brings a wealth of expertise to this afternoon’s debate on this statutory instrument. Like him, I am pleased to see the guidance and to have this opportunity to discuss the instrument. Also like him, I note that there are still some gaps in the legislation.

As I read through this statutory instrument, my mind turned back in particular to the 2021 Act and the fact that, at various points during its passage, many of the noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords who rose to speak asked about the role of central government. Although we acknowledge the importance of imposing duties on local authorities, I believe there is still a question about what duty we put on central government. At the moment, the legislation talks only about consultations with the devolved Administrations and certain departments: the Department for Education, the Department of Health and Social Care and the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. Obviously, that speaks to the three core aspects of the duties—education, healthcare and housing—but what thought have the Government paid to whether those duties should be widened to central government more generally? I ask this precisely because, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, pointed out, to the extent that the duties and benefits of the Armed Forces covenant relate to veterans, they should not be determined by their geographical location. It is wholly wrong to give somebody rights only if they are resident in the United Kingdom. If they are veterans who have served with His Majesty’s Armed Forces, they should be within scope.

Beyond that, I have a couple of specific questions associated with this statutory instrument. It is absolutely right that the Government are taking a broad view of what it means to be part of a family, going beyond the traditional view of a spouse and children of a traditional marriage. There are now many other types of family that would be affected, so that view is clearly right, but can the Minister explain a little more about how the Government would interpret, and how service providers should be expected to interpret, Regulation 3(3), which states:

“For the purposes of this regulation, references to A’s spouse or civil partner includes … a person whose relationship with A is akin to a relationship between spouses or civil partners”?


At one level, that might seem self-evident. However, if we are looking at local authorities being requested to find housing, how established does the relationship have to be? How will it be evaluated and what guidance will be given to local authorities when looking at housing provision, for example?

Similarly, with a wide understanding of children, stepchildren and other relatives, we could see quite wide sets of family relations. To what extent will that be considered in looking at housing, for example? If stepchildren arrive every other weekend, should they be taken into consideration when looking at local housing provision? Similarly, how extensive a group of family members might be considered for education and school waiting lists? What are the implications of that?

Regulation 3(3)(b) talks about

“a former spouse or civil partner or a person whose relationship with A was formerly akin to a relationship between spouses or civil partners.”

Again, how will that be evaluated? It might seem quite clear cut if somebody was part of an established relationship for 20 years, but how will a former partner who has been divorced, remarried and has not suffered as being part of the Armed Forces family in quite the same way be evaluated when people say, “We think we should be covered under the Armed Forces covenant”?

None of this is intended to sound churlish in any way; it is to probe the Government about how service providers are meant to interpret this. It is right that we should be generous and expansive in the way that we interpret the family, but it is also important that there are no ambiguities in the proposals put forward.

Finally, I could not see anything in the points on healthcare about dentistry. Maybe I missed it, but one of the big issues at the moment is the difficulty of people finding NHS dentists. If that is true for stable members of the population who do not move very much, how much truer will it be of the Armed Forces and their families? Is dentistry included, and if not, could it be?

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her usual informative and fluent explanation, and for the detail of the department’s Explanatory Memorandum. It is always a privilege to speak in any debate graced by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig. One learned from the historical viewpoint of the emergence of the covenant. I will be brief.

Paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that the duty aims

“to address the disparity of awareness of the Covenant”.

Paragraph 7.5 talks about “former service members” and a “broad approach”, and says that

“those outside the ‘traditional’ family may well be impacted by Service life.”

Those are important statements and it is good that they are highlighted in the papers before us.

The tradition of Armed Forces Day helps to address the challenge around the covenant. I do not think we can praise Armed Forces Day too highly. It is good that it has re-emerged after Covid.

The covenant helps evoke patriotism. Professor Helen Thompson, a left-leaning professor at Cambridge, recently said in the New Statesman that Britishness is still best defined as monarchy and the military. That is not for debate now, but if one is considering patriotism, the covenant and Armed Forces Day, that is a relevant foundational statement to make.

Further, paragraph 10.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to local government associations. One local government unit, Flintshire County Council in north-east Wales, has a very fine record of helping those who were in the Armed Forces. Armed Forces Day in Flintshire is always heavily subscribed by the local government. The current Armed Forces champion is county councillor David Evans OBE. He is worthy of a mention, as was his predecessor, Andrew Dunbobbin, who is now the police and crime commissioner for north Wales. The county of Flintshire has a very fine record.

Armed Forces (Service Court Rules) (Amendment) (No. 2) Rules 2022

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Lord Jones

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, like the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, on reading the overriding objective as outlined in the statutory instrument, my sense was that it appears in some ways to be motherhood and apple pie. It would seem self-evident that an overriding objective should be that cases should be dealt with justly. How else should we expect the law to be administered? However, the important thing is that the intention is to bring courts martial in alignment as closely as possible with civilian courts, and that is welcome. His honour Shaun Lyons recommended that and that the Government are finally bringing that within the scope of service justice seems entirely appropriate. Similarly, the point about female representation, following from the Atherton report, is welcome, and the Minister’s explanation of why it goes beyond simply sexual crimes and the like is wholly appropriate.

Therefore, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, I am not sure there will be any specific questions from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I realise I should have brought in reinforcements because Liberal Democrats feel that service justice is always best dealt with by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I presume that prior to the very welcome rules female board members were never present. Was that the case? I am looking at Rule 3A(1). How often do these boards sit? One presumes it is as events dictate, but how many are there in the average year? What number are we dealing with? This issue is central to the rules and some numbers might help. Finally, can the Minister furnish an example of gender representation—a woman/she/they—on a given present board? Is an example available?