Horizon Europe

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrat Benches.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, in his absence for persistently bringing the issue of Horizon Europe to your Lordships’ House. Today, obviously, we can be very glad that the UK has rejoined, and I declare my interest as a professor of European politics at Cambridge and as having previously received money from European Union research funding. Clearly, as an academic, I am delighted that we are back in, but how much is this blitz of information about rejoining Horizon Europe costing the Government and how far have we lost out by being an associate member and not a full member? As the Minister said, we are now treated like other associate members; what does that mean in practice?

Ukraine: Refugees

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 8th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I totally agree with the noble and right reverend Lord that the British people will be very generous. In fact, just before we started Questions, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham told me about a Church-based organisation that had already had 891 pledges. These are fantastic figures; the noble and right reverend Lord is absolutely right: we need to have them in the country first, and we need to expedite that process as quickly as possible. I am very keen to capture that enthusiasm and help, and offer support as soon as we can.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in light of that answer, can the Minister say whether there will be an opportunity for people to apply for visas in this country rather than being kept at Calais? Secondly, the Secretary of State for Defence was unable to answer a question on the radio this morning on whether the ACRS scheme for Afghan refugees has actually opened, saying that this is a matter for the Home Office which is rather busy with Ukraine. Can the Home Office not manage to deal with Afghan and Ukrainian refugees simultaneously?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think it is fair to say that the Home Office is dealing with both Afghan and Ukrainian refugees simultaneously. Up to 9 o’clock this morning, 4,278 appointments had been made at VACs; that is across the world, but it is a lot of VAC appointments. I checked for myself where the main bulk of those appointments were being made and the vast majority—that is, half of the appointments —were, of course, unsurprisingly, made in Poland. We have two VACs in Poland. For people fleeing Ukraine to be able to go straight to a VAC in Poland is clearly the best and easiest thing for them to do, to avoid problems along the way, shall we say.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report stage
Tuesday 8th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

No. The person who was unable to answer the question was the Secretary of State for Defence, on the radio this morning. He basically said, “It is a Home Office matter and, by the way, we are rather too busy with Ukraine.” That was the impression that he gave.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

It is a Home Office matter, so he was absolutely right on that, but it remains very important. Putting Ukraine into strong focus does not take away from our concern for what is happening to the people of Afghanistan. I doubt that it is getting any better; possibly it is getting worse. They still need our help and support.

On ARAP, the Home Office works with the MoD and the FCDO to ensure people’s safe passage here. I appreciate the sentiment behind the amendment, which seeks to widen further still the eligibility criteria, but it is not necessary to put the suggested changes in primary legislation. The Immigration Rules are designed to be altered where needed, with the approval of Parliament, to enable us to make changes such as those I have just been talking about. Having them prescribed in primary legislation would prevent the Government responding quickly where changes are required.

In any case, the specific changes put forward here are unnecessary. The ARAP rules as drafted, and changed as recently as December, provide us with the requisite flexibility to allow all those who made a substantive and positive contribution to the UK’s objective in Afghanistan, either directly for or alongside a UK government department, and who are now at risk as a result of that, to come to the UK. This has always been the intention of the scheme, and that is what is being delivered.

On additional family members, the ARAP rules reflect the wider immigration system in that principals can be joined by spouses, civil partners, durable partners and children under 18. It is right that they are consistent with other routes to the UK. In June last year we published guidance on how additional family members can join principal ARAP applicants here outside the rules, where there are specific levels of dependence or risk. This option has been widely used, and by definition provides us with greater discretion than having prescriptive criteria set out in the rules.

Security checks are carried out by the Home Office after the MoD has approved them. On JRs, the Home Office overturns MoD grants only ever on serious national security grounds.

The ARAP scheme has been a huge success. It has provided resettlement to more than 8,000 people already, with a similar number yet to come. The rules in place strike the right balance between providing support to those who need and deserve it and protecting the finite capacity of this country to resettle those in need. I hope the noble Baroness will be happy to withdraw her amendment.

Refugees: Status

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Baroness makes a really important point about unaccompanied minors. I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, in this area. We will always try to give unaccompanied asylum-seeking children refuge where it is needed. There will always be scope for an exemption from temporary protection status if it could not have been reasonably expected that they would come directly or claim without delay. All UASCs will be exempt from any no recourse to public funds requirement.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, was perhaps at risk of confusing the issue somewhat. He appeared to be talking about economic migration, which is not the same as asylum seeking. Does the Minister agree that the two are different, and does she agree that it is the right thing to do to offer asylum to all those who reach our shores claiming asylum if they have a genuine case?

Iraqi Interpreters

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 14th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As I say, I agreed with the premise of the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. We must also guard against the people whom we settle here not being thoroughly vetted, because, clearly, we have a security obligation to this country as well, but the premise in relation to those who have given their lives and time for us in war-torn countries is absolutely right.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, during the Recess, I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina on a trip led by Colonel Bob Stewart. During the Bosnian war, one of his interpreters was killed, he believes, for uttering the words that he was speaking. That demonstrates clearly how vulnerable interpreters are, whether in Iraq or Afghanistan. ARAP might be a great scheme, but it is too slow, and the communication between the Home Office, the MoD and the FCDO has been extremely protracted. What can the Minister say about speeding up the processes and ensuring that the Iraqi eight and any Afghan interpreters can be dealt with more swiftly so that their lives are not put in further jeopardy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, due to the very nature of a war-torn country, these processes are not swift. We have gone above and beyond what is necessary to try to get as many people out as quickly as possible. I, too, have been to Bosnia and I recognise the points that the noble Baroness makes.

Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I wholeheartedly concur with the noble Baroness on consistency of approach across government. It is no time for there to be differences in what departments are saying. In terms of the people that the noble Baroness refers to, I am going to read from the policy statement because it clarifies it:

“The scheme will prioritise … those who have assisted the UK efforts in Afghanistan and stood up for values such as democracy, women’s rights and freedom of speech, or rule of law (for example, judges, women’s rights activists, academics, and journalists)”.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has just stated what the policy will do. Can she tell us when we are going to get details of the resettlement policy? At the moment, there are thousands of people in hiding with no idea of how they are going to get out of Afghanistan and what they need to do to give this Government the right information to enable them to get out.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My honourable friend Victoria Atkins has started to outline some of the detail of what we are doing so far, and I think more will come. The policy statement makes very clear the types of people we will be prioritising—that is, the people who are most vulnerable to the Taliban.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 30th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in one of the most thoughtful debates on the Bill. I want to reflect first on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, who said that had it not been for the pandemic, we might not be having this debate. I honestly think that we would have been doing so in some form or other. I am not taking issue with what she said but I want to make a further point.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

I said that we would have been having this debate but the pandemic made it worse.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

In that case, I agree with the noble Baroness. However, the main part of my point was related to the issue on which my noble friend Lady McIntosh challenged me. She asked whether, given my background, I could see the problems to which noble Lords are referring. I can absolutely see them. In fact, in 2005, when I was a new leader of a council, and David Cameron a new leader of the Opposition, he asked me what the biggest challenge was for local authorities. Straight off, I said social care, and, 15 years later, that remains the case. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, referenced those who care voluntarily. There are so many that they save the state billions of pounds a year for the work that they do without being paid. I therefore join noble Lords in paying tribute to this sector, which has done so much, particularly during the pandemic. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, people in social care have given and lost their lives to the fight against the disease.

I turn next to points about the Migration Advisory Committee. First, I turn to the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, which he has made before, about the contradictory nature of what we are debating. In one sense, we highly value our social care workers and in another, as someone else said, they earn less, in some cases, than retail workers. That is the challenge at the heart of this: social care needs to be paid decently and seen as a decent career path for people to want to go into it.

I could stand at this Dispatch Box and give my view on the silver bullet that would sort this all out, but I am afraid that I cannot. It is not that it is above my pay grade but, as my noble friend Lord Horam said, this is a challenge for every department and government —and, actually, every one of us. I had a chat with my noble friend Lord Hodgson before this debate; he is probably sitting there very frustrated because he did not put his name down to speak, and I know that he would have wanted to talk about the report that the MAC issued yesterday on the review of the shortage occupation list. One of its key findings is that senior care workers, nursing auxiliaries and nursing assistants should be added to the UK-wide shortage occupation list. The Government want to take time to consider carefully what the MAC has said—as noble Lords I have said, it is a 650- page document—before we take any final decisions, and we will of course respond in due course.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, challenged me for a timescale, and “in due course” is about as far as I can go at this stage. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, talked about the devolved Administrations’ part in all this. Of course, it is a reserved matter. The new system will work for the whole of the UK and we have a national advisory group, with which we are engaged on the proposals, but it includes the Welsh NHS Confederation, Social Care Wales, NHS Scotland and Scottish social carers.

I turn to the amendments at hand. Amendment 3 returns to issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, in Committee, but it also incorporates a requirement to report on immigration routes for social care workers, which was raised during Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and goes to the essence of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in Committee, about a specific route for the social care sector. During our debate in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, rightly highlighted the significant shortages in the social care sector, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, amounting to around 120,000 vacancies. The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, also talked about the high turnover, which I think I said was 31%, but he thinks might be even higher.

We must keep it in mind that that is the situation despite the fact that EEA and Swiss citizens have had, and continue to have, free movement rights up to the end of this year. The noble Lord also highlighted the fact that the social care workforce is made up of approximately 83% British citizens, 7% from the EEA countries and about 9% from non-EEA countries. What struck me as interesting about those figures is that a higher percentage of people from non-EEA countries than from EEA countries are working in social care, even though they have no dedicated route to do so. Currently, while social care workers do not meet the skills threshold, a range of other immigration routes are available to them which provide a general right to work, such as dependants, those on family routes or youth mobility.

As part of the UK’s new points-based immigration system, we are expanding the skills threshold, which will bring jobs such as senior care workers within scope of the skilled worker route. Increasingly, people of all nationalities will be able to benefit from this offer providing they meet the other requirements, such as salary threshold. However, I want to be clear that, as my noble friend Lord Horam points out, the Government do not see the immigration system as the solution to all issues in the social care sector. I think there is now general acceptance across your Lordships’ House that that is the case.

With that in mind, we are working alongside the sector to ensure that the workforce has the right number of people to meet increasing demands, with the right skills, knowledge and approach to deliver quality, compassionate care. The Department of Health and Social Care has launched a new national recruitment campaign called Every Day Is Different to run across broadcast, digital and social media. The campaign highlights the vital role that the social care workforce is playing during this pandemic, along with the longer-term opportunities of working in care.

The Government have also commissioned Skills for Care to scale up capacity for digital induction training provided free of charge under DHSC’s workforce development fund. This training is available for redeployees, new starters, existing staff and volunteers through 12 of Skills for Care’s endorsed training providers. The Government are committing record investment to the NHS, including the NHS long-term funding settlement, which has now been enshrined in law. At the Budget, the Chancellor outlined over £6 billion of further new spending in this Parliament to support the NHS. This includes £5.4 billion to meet our manifesto commitments of 50,000 more nurses, 50 million additional appointments in primary care, more funding for hospital car parking and establishing a learning disability and autism community discharge grant to support discharges into the community.

As my noble friend Lord Horam pointed out, we are also investing in social care. DHSC is providing councils with access to an additional £1.5 billion for adult and children’s social care in 2021. We have also announced £2.9 billion to help local authorities in response to the coronavirus crisis. The Department of Health and Social Care is also working closely with Skills for Care to help employers train new recruits and volunteers and to refresh the skills of its current workforce.

In Committee, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Masham of Ilton, highlighted that working in social care, especially when caring for people who have severe disabilities, requires much more than just technical skills. I totally agree. Social care jobs will not be for everyone. However, it is a sad consequence of the current pandemic that many people have lost their jobs. While not all of them will have the necessary caring skills, I think there are many people in the UK who really do care, and it is vital that we take the opportunity to emphasise the importance of social care work and ensure that it is a rewarding job for people.

The view that migration is not the solution to the challenges faced by the care sector is supported by the Migration Advisory Committee. My noble friends Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Lilley referred to that in Committee. We need to make changes to the way we train, recruit , attract and, crucially, retain staff in health and social care, but without making changes, the immigration system will continue to be used as a failsafe to maintain a broken system that relies on bringing people in on minimum wage and holding down wages.

The Government continue to commission and fund a range of training opportunities to help recruit people into the sector and develop leadership within social care. This includes the Think Ahead programme, which has taken on more than 400 applicants since it was launched in 2015. It trains graduates to become mental health social workers. There is also the workforce development fund, which helped nearly 2,800 establishments to support nearly 14,500 learners in 2018-19. This fund will continue to focus on key priorities in future.

Turning to the specifics of the amendment, it is of course sensible that policies are kept under review—something the Government stand by in the current system and will ensure continues under new arrangements. We already have the MAC, and its advice has been accepted by all types of Government over many years. I know that some noble Lords do not share my views on the expert advice provided by the MAC, but surely there cannot be disagreement that the MAC has repeatedly considered the needs of the social care sector, as referenced by the report yesterday.

We should not take for granted the Government’s own extensive engagement with stakeholders across the whole of the UK, and indeed the critical role that this House plays in scrutinising policies and intentions. So I do understand the intent of the noble Lord’s amendment to ensure the protection of a vital sector. We already have a world-class independent body with new autonomy to review any part of our immigration system, as referenced today, in the last 24 hours. I hope the noble Lord will therefore feel that Amendment 3 is not necessary and will be happy to withdraw it.

Brexit: EU Citizens in the UK

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The right reverend Prelate is right, it goes deeper than the right to stay; it is “You are welcome to stay”. This country is most welcoming, hence the influx of immigration into this country, because it is such a great place to live.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I was somewhat stunned yesterday evening to hear the first thing the Prime Minister said after the withdrawal agreement went down in the House of Commons: that EU citizens were most anxious to know what was going to happen and to have certainty. Surely the Government could have given certainty to EU nationals, whether they arrived before 1973 or afterwards, before now. What certainty are they able to give? It is vital to give it immediately.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think it is clear that, deal or no deal, those people are welcome here.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I appreciate that within statistics we can say all sorts of things. However, it is not a myth about the Indian students. People who come here and use services and infrastructure for more than a year are counted as migrants.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, at present, the number of international students is clearly more than 100,000. If the Government persist in their commitment to keep immigration under the tens of thousands, does that mean that there is no scope for increasing the number of international students, for which there appears to be cross-party support as it would benefit the UK economy? I refer to my interests as recorded.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There are well over 100,000 students. In the 2015-16 academic year, 438,000 students enrolled—almost half a million—and visa applications sponsored by universities are 19% higher than they were in 2010. There is no limit on the number of international students who come to this country, and we welcome them all.

European Union: Migration

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I shall endeavour to be helpful to the Minister: the previous questions have been about the past; I want to ask about the future. Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relates to the free movement of workers, not people generally. What thoughts have Her Majesty’s Government given to the excellent report by the House of Commons Brexit committee? It talks about the rights of UK and EU nationals in relation to the non-work related aspects of immigration policy, including students and family reunion, and EU spouses compared with non-EU spouses. I declare my interests as listed in the register.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am glad the noble Baroness is talking about the future and not the past, which probably neither of us, and certainly I, do not remember. The directive is about the movement of workers and their families. The Prime Minister has been absolutely clear about protecting the rights of EU nationals living in this country. We talked a lot in Committee about the fairness of the process and, therefore, protecting the rights of UK nationals in return. The Government do not want to do this on a unilateral basis. We need to think about all the people involved, both UK nationals living in the EU and EU nationals living here.

Immigration: International Students

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not know who is misrepresenting who but I do not feel that I can speak for the Foreign Secretary. In fact, sometimes I do not know if the Foreign Secretary speaks for others. It is indeed true that Indian student numbers have gone down, but Chinese student numbers have gone up. Indeed, figures for the Russell Group have gone up.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, is not the figure of tens of thousands as a cap on immigration entirely arbitrary? If we accept the importance of international students, they should be taken out of that target. That does not mean taking them out of the OECD numbers, but it does mean that we could look again at the international numbers. I declare my interests as listed in the register.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there is no cap on the number of students who come here. As long as students are compliant with immigration rules, they should make only a very limited contribution to the migration numbers. The Government’s ultimate goal is to get migration numbers down to the tens of thousands rather than the hundreds of thousands, but that will take time.

Brexit: Immigration Policy

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord, as always, makes a very good point. Yes, we must control the numbers of people coming to Britain from Europe but, as he says, we must ensure a positive outcome for those who wish to trade in goods and services.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, further to the debate in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the Minister’s letter in response to that debate, can the noble Baroness give any indication of whether Her Majesty’s Government are thinking about the situation for European Union students in the event of our leaving the European Union? At present they have the same rights as home students; in future they would fall within the immigration flows and therefore be capped within the tens of thousands unless there is a mutually beneficial deal for the EU and the United Kingdom. I refer the House to my interests listed in the register.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I think I have said to the House before, we remain absolutely committed to attracting the brightest and best students to the UK. There is currently no cap on the number of international students who come to this country because they help make our education system one of the best in the world. We have a competitive post-study work offer for graduates seeking to undertake skilled work after their studies.

Immigration: Overseas Students

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking my noble friend Lord Lucas for initiating this incredibly popular debate, which attracted almost 20 speakers, and also welcome to her place the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, and congratulate her on her maiden speech. Like me, she is an immigrant, and also like me, she sounded quite emotional speaking in this House for the first time. I have to say that I felt exactly the same. I look forward to hearing from her, as the years go on, in this House.

It should come as no surprise to anybody that on the subject of higher education, noble Lords bring unparalleled experience. I felt quite humble listening to some of the background stories and hearing about some of the universities with which noble Lords are associated. I have to say—although noble Lords may not agree with me—that I do not think there is any real difference of opinion between any of us on this topic. We all share the desire to ensure that the United Kingdom continues to attract the best and brightest international students to study here. High-quality international students enrich the intellectual life of the institutions where they are studying. As the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, says, they increase the soft power of the UK as a country, and they enhance the experience of the domestic students here. I hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, says, they return to their home countries with fond memories of their time in the United Kingdom.

We already have an excellent offer for international students, which is why the UK remains the second most popular place in the world to study, behind only the United States. There is no limit on the number of genuine international students who can come here to study. That is a very important point. We do not propose to cap or limit the number of overseas students who can come to study in the UK.

Our approach is based on two key principles, which I hope will be shared by all noble Lords. First, we want to ensure that UK education institutions can attract the best and brightest. Secondly, we need to be vigilant and guard against abuse of the student migration route. I do not want to bring politics into what has been a bipartisan debate, with very good contributions from all around the House, but I have to say that the student immigration system the Government inherited in 2010 was a mess. Abuse was rife, and steps needed to be taken to restore it to a sensible state. Some 920 institutions have had their right to sponsor overseas students removed, and the effects are clear to see. The proportion of overseas students now attending higher education institutions has risen by 16%—from 143,000 in 2010 to 166,000 in 2015.

I would not want your Lordships to interpret this as an attempt to restrict those who are genuine in their desire to study. Visa applications from university students are now 14% higher than they were in 2010. Visa applications to Russell group universities, of which much mention has been made today, are 39% higher than in 2010. The grant rate for tier 4 general visa applications has increased every year since 2010, and 94% of such applications were granted in 2015.

Of course, applications from some nationalities are down, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, pointed out. I shall address that later. Equally, applications from other nationalities are up, particularly from Chinese students. There are natural fluctuations, but the fact that overall applications to universities have increased in the last five years is encouraging and suggests that any particular falls should not be attributed to Home Office immigration policies.

This Government are determined to help our best institutions attract the best international talent from around the world. Let me give noble Lords a recent example. We recently launched the tier 4 visa pilot. Four institutions, the Universities of Bath, Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial College, chosen because of their consistently low visa refusal rates, are piloting a scheme whereby certain visa eligibility checks have been delegated to the universities and the documentary requirements for students taking part are reduced. The students also have additional leave at the end of their course to enable them to take advantage of the UK’s post-study work offer. Monitoring of the pilot is ongoing and the results will be evaluated to inform any decision to roll out the pilot more widely. However, if it is a success—I hope that this addresses the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell—I hope that other high-quality institutions in the UK will be able to benefit. The noble Lord asked about publishing specific data on the pilot. We have not done so, as it is commercially sensitive information.

As the Home Secretary recently announced, we will be seeking views on study immigration routes. I encourage all interested parties—which will, I am sure, include many of your Lordships and the institutions with which noble Lords are associated—to participate and ensure that every point of view is heard.

I shall deal with some specific points raised during the debate, and I hope I can get through every one of them—but poor noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, is always last on the list because he winds up for the Opposition, and I may well have to write to him. However, I shall address the first answer to him, because I have just had inspiration from the Box. He asked why we cannot have two sets of immigration figures, like the USA. Another noble Lord asked the same question. Net migration statistics are not produced by the Home Office but by the ONS, the UK’s independent statistical authority. I hope that answers the question.

Several noble Lords—the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Newnham and Lady Royall of Blaisdon, the noble Lord, Lord Trees, my noble friends Lord Lexden and the Duke of Wellington, and others I am sure—suggested that students should be removed from the net migration statistics. I make the point that the ONS has drawn up these statistics. The Government trying to influence the production of independent statistics might be seen to help the Government achieve a manifesto target.

Like Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the Office for National Statistics includes international students in net migration calculations. International students who stay for longer than 12 months have, like other migrants, an impact on the infrastructure and services that they use and the communities in which they live. Only yesterday, the ONS released a report which stated that the net migration figures are used to calculate the size of the UK population in any given year, and that they include international students since they contribute to population growth. I make one final point on that, because I think it is important. Changing the way that we measure migration would not make a difference to our student migration policy, because there continues to be no limit on the number of genuine international students who come here to study.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am very reluctant to sit down because I have very little time.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham]

Can the noble Baroness explain how that fits with an immigration target of tens of thousands?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was just saying to the noble Baroness that, because we do not place a limit on the number of students, the fact that the ONS includes students in the migration statistics does not impact on students’ abilities to come here. I do not know if I have made that very clear; the noble Baroness does not look very convinced. If I could make progress and she could look at Hansard, perhaps I could make it clear in writing as well.

My noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the initial question, “What is the problem?”. I do not think we are anything but in agreement that international students are absolutely vital to the UK, whether it is in medicine, engineering, or anything else. But we must remain vigilant, maintaining safeguards against the types of abuse that we saw previously. We will be inviting views on what more we can do to strengthen the system to support our excellent higher education institutions and those that stick to the rules to attract the best talent.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, asked me to confirm that the Home Office will think liberally and openly about EU students. The Prime Minister has been very clear that she wants to protect the status of EU nationals already living in the UK. The only circumstances in which that would not be possible is if British citizens’ rights in other EU member states were not protected in return. There will be no immediate changes to the immigration status of EU students or the way that universities are able to recruit students.

My noble friend Lord Lexden asked about minor infractions being reported to UKVI, resulting in heavy sanctions being unfairly imposed. Sponsors benefit directly from migration and are expected to play a part in ensuring that the system is not abused. They must therefore fulfil certain duties to ensure that immigration control is maintained. We already apply discretion to sponsors who have fewer than 50 international students when they undergo their annual compliance assessment and we do not apply sanctions lightly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, asked whether we could introduce a post-study work route for STEM students and nurses. The post-study provisions we have in place must strike the balance between providing competitive options for the brightest graduates from around the globe and maintaining safeguards against the type of widespread abuse that was seen under former post-study work schemes. The noble Baroness also said that the Times report suggested that only 1 per cent of students overstay, and asked why we therefore needed to review the student visa system. We think that the reforms we have made in the last few years have worked and greatly improved compliance. However, that does not mean that we can be complacent. We will shortly be consulting on non-EU work and study immigration routes.

Brexit: EU Citizens

Debate between Baroness Smith of Newnham and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, healthcare agreements, as with any other agreements that we might seek through our negotiation with the EU, will all be determined in the fullness of time.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

Could the Minister tell us whether she, or other Ministers, would feel reassured by the repeated assertions that the rights of EU nationals in this country will be protected only in so far as the rights of UK nationals in other EU member states are protected?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I cannot say any more than I said in response to the first Question, which is that the Prime Minister has made her position absolutely clear, and unless the rights of our citizens and other EU countries change, that position remains.