Rules-based International Order

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I certainly support engaging with civil society at the United Nations Security Council, as we have been doing. I will look very carefully at what Secretary-General Guterres has said. We support United Nations Security Council reform—India should be a permanent member and we need to look at the representation of Africa—but, candidly, in trying to make progress in these reforms, this will be a very difficult one on which to get unanimity. In this difficult, dangerous and disputatious world, the most important thing is to ask what we can do to strengthen our networks, NATO and our defence, security and intelligence forces to keep us safe at home and to ask through which institutions we can get things done. That is my priority. Although I support United Nations Security Council reform, it might be some time coming.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I think the Foreign Secretary said to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, that Rwanda is a “perfectly safe country”. If that is the case, why do we still grant asylum to people coming from Rwanda? He suggested that international refugee law is rather out of date, implying that if a law comes from a different age then it can be ignored. Is that really the inference that he wanted to leave with the House?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

No. I am saying that in the modern world, where you have the ubiquity of mobile phones and mass cheap travel, countries have to make a decision about how to deal with illegal migration. I will be very frank with the noble Baroness: I do not think that we can tolerate a situation where there is very wide-scale, visible illegal migration taking place in small boats. It is not only desperately dangerous and unsafe for the people who do it—another four people lost their lives in the freezing cold waters of the English Channel the other night—but it completely undermines faith in our immigration system. As I said, all these people are coming from a totally safe country, France.

You have a choice in politics. You can say—and I do not want to get too political, because I know that is not the way of this House—that you are going to work on dealing with the criminal gangs and work on more agreements with France. I agree with all those things. However, ultimately, if you do not say to the people who come in the boats that they cannot stay here because they came illegally, you will not stop this trade and you are not going to save those lives. This Government have made a choice: that is what we are going to do. Yes, it is complicated; yes, it is expensive; yes, in the case of Rwanda, is it out-of-the-box thinking. However, it is the right thing to do because, if you do not do it, you will carry on with the problem.

It is not just Britain that has this issue. Some 6 million people have crossed the southern border in the United States. Country after country in Europe is looking at novel thinking for how to deal with illegal immigration. We have to do that, because otherwise we will have a system which will have no public confidence.

Israel and Gaza

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. He is right that things are at a crucial stage at the Security Council. We are expecting a vote at approximately 5 pm our time and are working really hard to make sure that we have a text that can be agreed on. It is involving all the diplomatic skills we have at hand. We will make sure that we keep the House informed on the progress of that and will explain the text we have achieved.

The noble Lord is absolutely right to raise humanitarian support. Some £10 million to support Palestinian refugees has been committed at the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. In addition, £150 million has been committed to support vulnerable Syrians and £70 million has been contributed to the UNHCR. A whole range of different schemes have been adopted in the region, but we have tripled our particular support to those in Gaza to make sure that we are supporting them. The humanitarian aid we want to see delivered has a number of potential routes in. One, which I mentioned earlier, was a maritime option, but that of course requires the agreement of both Israel and Hamas. We are also investigating a cross-land route via Jordan through Israel through to the Kerem Shalom crossing. These are complicated issues to negotiate, and we will continue to keep the House informed on our progress.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, we seem to be facing something of a moving target. When the Minister of State made the response in another place, the suggestion was that the UN vote was expected at 3 pm our time. My honourable friend Layla Moran, in asking her supplementary in the other place, noted that the Government

“talk now of a sustainable ceasefire”,

and asked whether they will demand “an immediate bilateral ceasefire”. It is not clear that the Minister of State in the other place gave a direct answer to that, so I wonder whether the Minister is able to do so and whether he can tell us whether the naval support being sent will be able to support ships getting through the Red Sea and keep trade lines open as well.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am mindful that the noble Baroness’s friend in the other place has family in the Holy Family church in Gaza. We are very keen to make sure that we are supporting both getting aid to people like that but also to make sure that we are holding Israel to the very clear statement of President Herzog, who said that:

“The State of Israel and the IDF continue to act in a humanitarian manner and in accordance with international law”.


The eyes of the world are on this. We were all appalled by what happened on 7 October; Many Members of this House have seen the footage of those terrible attacks, and absolutely accept the right of Israel to defend itself. But we want to get aid in and make sure that Israel is operating in accordance with humanitarian law. The sustainable ceasefire that we are talking about, which my colleague the Foreign Secretary and his opposite number in Germany have put together, is about stopping the launching of rockets, releasing the hostages, and moving to that key two-state solution. That is what “sustainable” means in this context.

Trial of Jimmy Lai

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his words. On his first point about the Magnitsky measures that were included in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act, I was involved in that process. They are robust and they stack up with similar measures that have been brought in by so many countries through the hard work of a great many people but particularly Bill Browder. They have applications right across the civilised world against acts of gross human rights abuse. We will continue to consider designations under the Global Human Rights Sanctions Regulations. We do not speculate about those, and is quite right that we do not. On 6 July 2020, the then Foreign Secretary announced the global human rights sanctions regime, allowing the UK to target human rights violators directly for the first time.

The noble Lord also asked about our China strategy. I refer him to the integrated review refresh, which has a very clearly set out approach to China—to protect, to align and to engage. Examples under protection are the National Security and Investment Act, removing surveillance equipment from sensitive government sites, and banning TikTok on government devices. Examples under alignment are deepening co-operation with core allies and a broader group of partners, G7 leaders and the like.

On engagement, we are strengthening contact with China. We invited China to the AI Safety Summit, we deliver messages on those occasions on human rights, and we press China not to support Russia. We will continue that kind of engagement, which we think is the right approach. It is all set out in the integrated review.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said, it is good to hear that the Foreign Secretary is supporting the rights of Jimmy Lai. Can the Minister tell the House what His Majesty’s Government are doing in practical terms to try to re-engage China on the Sino-British agreement? In the other place yesterday, the Minister of State, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, simply said that

“the breaching of the Sino-British joint declaration is a great tragedy”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/12/23; col. 1126.]

That sounds a bit like hand-wringing. Is any more being done?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Sino-British declaration is a bilateral agreement registered with the United Nations. It is vital that we continue to raise it when we think it is being abused or when measures are being taken that are not in keeping with it or the values that underpin it, and we do that regularly. I have a list—I do not have time to relay it to the House now—of the times when we have raised these issues and examples of our continuing to raise them both bilaterally and multilaterally. I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that words are just that: words. The actions one can take when one side of a party is failing to sustain a bilateral agreement are very difficult to take, but we will continue to find all methods to raise the importance of this declaration.

North Korea

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 14th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, we all owe a great debt of thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Swire, for introducing this debate this afternoon, for having the prescience to bring it, and for bringing his immense expertise to the Chamber. Right at the outset, he raised an issue that all of us present, and those many Members who are not in their places, should think about. In the 21st century, there seems to be an issue of politics and international relations speeding up, and of Governments, politicians and the media being perhaps unable to deal with more than one crisis at a time.

It is only two and a half years ago that the United States, and with it its NATO allies, pulled out of Afghanistan. That was not an unexpected incident; your Lordships’ International Relations and Defence Committee had written a report about the UK’s role in Afghanistan and published it in January of that year. The Government responded to that report, yet in August 2021 it seemed that the Government had been somewhat blindsided by Biden’s decision to withdraw from Afghanistan. That withdrawal, and the West’s inability to remain and support the Afghans once the US left, sent messages to Russia and China. Why is that important? It is because, in many ways, nobody was looking at Afghanistan at that time. Nobody was saying, “What if there is a major change?”, yet for two and a half years, thousands of people in Afghanistan have been fleeing for their lives. Decisions made on issues that have not been adequately thought about can have major consequences.

However, we do not really talk very much about Afghanistan at the moment. Ukraine, the next big international crisis, pushed Afghanistan off the front pages and seemed to push it out of the mindset of this Chamber and the other place. Then we get Israel and Gaza.

As the noble Lord, Lord Swire, put it, there is a real issue of bandwidth. I think of it perhaps as the CNN factor but, in a conversation earlier, it was pointed out that maybe it is the TikTok generation. Well, I suspect the Minister replying to the debate this afternoon is not of the TikTok generation. I may be wrong; he may be going to say that I have got it entirely wrong and he spends much of his time on TikTok and Instagram—but I suspect not. I suspect that, like many of us, he is of a generation that is used to events happening in a somewhat slower way, taking time to evolve and not being followed by the media 24/7. In the 30 years since Bosnia and the rise of CNN, we are expected to respond to crises immediately but to switch from one to the next to the next.

One question I will ask the noble Lord is not directly about North Korea—I will come on to that in a moment. It is: to what extent are His Majesty’s Government able to take the time to think about wider threats beyond the immediate? The then Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab, was blindsided by Afghanistan—being on holiday where, apparently, he could not swim because the sea was closed. That issue had been foreseen, even if it suited Ministers later to suggest that it had not.

North Korea is precisely the sort of issue, as the noble Lord, Lord Swire, pointed out, that this House and the elected Chamber spend very little time thinking about; how very different for Japan and South Korea, and I welcome their diplomats present today. There is very much a question of what His Majesty’s Government are able to do beyond integrated reviews to think about North Korea and the sorts of unintentional consequences of the fact that is has developed nuclear weapons. So my question to the Minister is on wider strategic matters, because I want to focus my remarks on the wider international.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Swire, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and my noble friend Lord Alton for repeatedly bringing questions about North Korea to our attention. Frankly, if they did not, who would? Obviously, we now have the added benefit of having the noble Lord, Lord Swire, here to do that, but we need to be reminded in this country about North Korea and the questions that we need to think about as part of the international community.

Today’s debate is about the current threat from North Korea. As defence spokesperson for these Benches, my immediate thought was of the international consequences and threats that we have rightly heard about from speakers across the Chamber and the domestic threats and human rights violations perpetrated every day in North Korea. These matter and we should be thinking about them, and I add the support of these Benches for the comments about concerns about genocide and crimes against humanity. As so often, I ask the Minister what assessment His Majesty’s Government have made of concerns about crimes against humanity and genocide being perpetrated in North Korea and of whether now is the time to be thinking about naming genocide.

In order to widen the debate, I want to think about the wider global consequences, which were well introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Swire, and touched on in particular by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. Aside from the domestic threats to the individual—to the very people whom the North Korean Government should be protecting, their own citizens—North Korea’s obscene defence expenditure of 35% or 40% of its GDP ignores its citizens. It is not about protecting them; it is about the aggrandisement of the state.

The potential and actual threats from North Korea are linked to the nuclear threat, to cyber and to cryptocurrency, as the noble Lord, Lord Swire, pointed out, and there are wider questions about the potential development of chemical weapons and the use of hybrid warfare. From the perspective of Westminster, most of those threats might seem very far away, but they are threats to our allies such as South Korea, from which we recently had a state visit at which issues of defence were discussed. If the United Kingdom is to be a strong ally and partner of South Korea, and similarly of Japan, we need to think about how to support those countries in their defence, and with our defence relationships. So precisely what discussions are His Majesty’s Government having with those of North Korea’s neighbours that perceive themselves to be most under threat from North Korea in the international space?

The nuclear threat does not affect just neighbouring countries. How effective that threat is—how effective North Korea’s nuclear capability is in 2023—remains somewhat unclear, but we are hearing a lot about the six nuclear tests and the attempts to have intercontinental ballistic missiles and the ability to target the United States, our NATO ally. Have the Government made assessments of the current nuclear capabilities of North Korea and what the potential threats actually are?

We probably differ across the Chamber in our views about the implications of North Korea having nuclear weapons for our own domestic nuclear stance. If we had a world without nuclear weapons, we would all be much safer—the dangers of miscalculation would go away because the threat would have gone—but unilateral disarmament would not get us to that place. As the noble Lord, Lord Swire, pointed out in his introductory remarks, North Korea rightly looks at countries that gave up their nuclear weapons, such as Ukraine, and says, “We want a nuclear weapon”.

So the question of who has nuclear weapons and what we do with them remains pertinent. Have the Government thought about talking to the six about further discussions on the nuclear capabilities of North Korea? Is the United Kingdom in any discussions about being part of those negotiations? In the negotiations with Iran that worked effectively until the Trump regime was in government, the E3+3 had an important role. So the UK does have a role to play, but is it playing it? Do the Government see a role for us, particularly if we were able to reopen our embassy in Pyongyang?

There are many questions that reach into the wider international which the Minister might like to tackle in his 20 minutes when he is responding to these relatively few speeches. Often, we have a debate on a foreign or defence issue on a Thursday afternoon and relatively few people speak. It is wonderful to see that on this occasion—I am deliberately saying this so that it is on the record in Hansard—the Chamber is not empty apart from the speakers; we have Peers listening intently on this important issue, because it matters. The security of North Korea’s neighbours is not just a regional issue; there are global challenges here that affect the United Kingdom and our NATO partners.

I want to wind up my speech with a final set of questions about China, which could potentially play an important role. China has a mutual defence agreement with North Korea. It is also a country that has traditionally not been in favour of intervention in other countries; for example, it did not actively support Russia’s intervention in Ukraine despite it having made a bilateral agreement with Russia almost immediately before the invasion of eastern Ukraine. So, we assume that China would not support North Korea being an aggressor, but is it playing any role as a mediator? Can we have frank conversations with China about this?

Indeed, has there been a change in the FCDO’s position in the past two weeks—or is it three?—since the former Prime Minister was ennobled in order to become our Foreign Secretary? It is clear that, during the coalition Government, the UK’s relationship with China was much closer; although that was arguably too close a relationship, it is still important to remember that our relationship with China needs to include elements of co-operation; it is not just about challenge and competition. Do His Majesty’s Government see a way to talk to China about being a mediator because, at the moment, it seems unlikely that we will have any opportunities to persuade Russia to weaken its relations with North Korea, when Russia needs all the friends it can get? Assuming that China is the main potential mediator, are we having discussions?

In line with many noble Lords, I support from these Benches the ideas that we need to ensure that we have effective sanctions; and that the sanctions against North Korea should be targeted at individuals so that, as far as possible, they minimise the impact on citizens. I spoke on this issue on 5 September 2017—I went back and checked. On that occasion, Vladimir Putin had just said:

“The North Koreans will eat grass”.


That was the impact of the sanctions. We need to make sure that the impact of sanctions is on individuals, and secondary sanctions are vital so that nobody in North Korea who should be taking responsibility is able to escape that responsibility.

Taliban Relations and Afghan Refugees

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. It is appalling how women are treated in Afghanistan. I gave some of the points earlier about access to school, education and university, and even to public spaces. We have to use the maximum leverage that we have. Of course, while we need to help people in Afghanistan who are facing great food insecurity and huge difficulties around shelter and livelihoods—and we are helping—we can do that through United Nations organisations, rather than through the Government of Afghanistan. We should continue to do that and use the pressure that we have to say to the regime that it needs to change its ways with respect to women and girls.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary has already mentioned that there is a danger of people in Pakistan who have ARAP entitlement being sent back to Afghanistan, and a hope that we can persuade Pakistan not to let them go back. Could he show the House the Government’s commitment to people who have ARAP entitlement, or ACRS entitlement, and talk with his right honourable friends in the other place the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, and the Cabinet Office, about ensuring that every single person who has ARAP entitlement is able to come from Pakistan or Afghanistan to this country? We owe those people; what are we doing?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is completely right; this is a cross-government effort. We have to make sure we identify these people, contact them and let them know about their right to come and live here. Then we have to work out, across the different departments of government, how to make sure that can happen in a way that works for them and their families. I can tell her that that is exactly what is happening in government at the moment.

Israel/Gaza

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, like everyone in your Lordships’ House and across the country and world, I heard the news on 7 October with horror. I was in Turkey at the time, flying back that morning. I woke to the news of the attacks on Israel. As soon as we had landed at Stansted, I heard people in the row behind me on the plane saying, “Oh no, they’ve taken hostages”. I do not know, but my sense was that it was a Jewish family behind me, who were concerned already about hostage taking.

The attack on Israel was an atrocity, the likes of which we have not seen since the Holocaust. It is the worst attack since 9/11, but the worst loss of life for Jewish people since the Holocaust. Israel has a right to defend itself and we must support Israel in defending itself. However, it is absolutely the case that Israel must abide by international law. We should also be looking for a temporary cessation of hostilities at the very least to allow humanitarian aid to get into Gaza.

Whoever the perpetrators might be—Hamas is a terrorist organisation—the majority of people in Gaza are under 18. They are not the perpetrators of the crimes of 7 October. The premature babies lying in incubators in hospitals in Gaza are innocent victims of what is happening. Food, energy and clean water need to get into Gaza, and we need to be looking to support that. Could the Minister tell the House what His Majesty’s Government are doing to work, behind the scenes perhaps, with Israel and other countries to try to bring about a temporary cessation of hostilities for humanitarian reasons? Eventually, a permanent ceasefire is desirable, but the immediate requirement is a cessation of hostilities coupled with, obviously, the release of the 200 hostages, as so many noble Lords have called for.

Apart from the situation in Israel and Gaza at the moment, there are three things I would like to raise: first, the domestic consequences in the United Kingdom of the conflict; secondly, the regional implications; and, thirdly, the wider, global situation. I am not going quite as far as my noble friend Lord Alderdice in suggesting that this is going to be the third global conflict, but there are clearly very serious consequences we need to be aware of and where His Majesty’s Government hopefully have some thoughts.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, raised concerns about a lack of education about Judaism and the Holocaust. In particular, she raised concerns about two universities, one of which is my university—the University of Cambridge. I apologise if anybody feels that there is anti-Semitism stemming from the University of Cambridge. Clearly, anti-Semitism must be condemned. The spillover of anti-Semitism into this country, the rise of anti-Semitic crime, and the concerns as raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, of Jewish children going to school and university, is something that we really need to be looking to. We need to overcome anti- Semitism in this country, but we also need to avoid a spillover into Islamophobia. Both of those things are vital.

On regional spillover, we have heard reference to Iran this evening but we have not heard much more about the wider regional consequences that could come about from the current situation in Israel and Gaza. Could the Minister tell us what assessment His Majesty’s Government are making of the situation with Lebanon and the role of Hezbollah, and how far Iran is involved in this conflict? In particular, will His Majesty’s Government look again at proscribing the Iranian revolutionary guard?

Finally, I turn to the wider consequences. Already we have heard that President Erdoğan of Turkey, a NATO partner, has close links with Hamas—there has been reference in the media to that situation—though he is possibly pulling back slightly. Have His Majesty’s Government talked to President Erdoğan? Beyond that, what about other partner nations and countries that have seen support for Hamas—not just Qatar but further afield?

At present the United States and the United Kingdom have been stalwart in their support of Israel, but many countries have not been so stalwart in that support. There are competing rhetorics, quite apart from the fake news that has been talked about this evening. What assessment are His Majesty’s Government making around some of the wider challenges for the global situation and for relations between Christians, Jews and Muslims?

As my noble friend Lord Alderdice reminded us, in Palestine it is not just Muslims who are being killed but also Christians. We talk about the Holy Land. Jerusalem is a city that is prized by Christians, Muslims and Jews. We can only join with the Minister when he recited earlier the Muslim prayer, “To God we belong and to God we return”. Let us hope that that sees us returning not just to God but to peace and reconciliation in the Middle East.

Situation in Russia and Ukraine Recovery Conference

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

On her second point, I assure my noble friend that we are of course working with key partners, NATO and the G7. We are all acutely aware and deeply concerned about the situation in Russia. As I said in my response to the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, an unstable and imploding Russia is to no one’s benefit. As I am sure my noble friend recalls, prior to the war starting in February, well over a year and a half ago, the Russians themselves regularly signed the NPT. They have signed up to it, yet here was an aggression by a P5 member, a nuclear power, a founding member of the United Nations, against another country. The challenge remains, both diplomatically and, importantly, around how we come together to face the overall threat. Indeed, we have seen President Putin himself at times suggest the use of some kind of tactical weapons. We need to keep a watchful eye on this and be very much in a state of readiness in every respect.

On my noble friend’s first question, we have a long tradition of providing support and protection to many from across the world, and Ukraine is no exception. Well over 140,000 Ukrainians have come to the UK. My noble friend makes a very valid point about education and there being no lost generation. I know many are attending local schools. If there is further data to share, I will ask my colleagues in the appropriate department to share that with her.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I do not think I heard the Minister respond to one of the questions from my noble friend Lord Purvis, which was about proscribing the Wagner Group. Like my noble friend, I have raised this issue in the past, and I know the standard Front Bench response is that we cannot talk about individual cases while they are being considered. But if not now, when? This is not just a question about personnel fighting the war in Ukraine on behalf of Russia; it is about activity in Africa, and it is about gold and about riches. Surely now is the time to proscribe the Wagner Group.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, sometimes a non-answer contains the answer itself. The noble Baroness is correct that I cannot speculate about what may or may not happen. What is very clear, as we have said repeatedly from this Dispatch Box, is that the Wagner Group is a mercenary force. There is an irony here, in that the very mercenary force that sought to plug gaps across Africa and in Ukraine, and to provide its support in other parts of the world where there was great instability, is now acting against its own so-called master.

As to who was the master and who was not, that remains to be determined. We have seen inconsistent statements, including from the Russian Administration themselves—Mr Putin and Mr Lavrov—as to the connection with the Wagner Group. That has become more transparent with the exchange of words that has happened recently. I assure the noble Baroness that we keep all elements under consideration. When it comes to sanctions, a great number of the Wagner Group’s members and the organisation as a whole are subject to sanctions. We always note what noble Lords say in this House and what honourable Members say in the other place, and it is very clear that the Wagner Group is no one’s friend.

Sudan: Civilian Population

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 18th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, while I agree with the noble Lord to the extent that there can be no winners in this situation, my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have both made clear, through direct interactions with the two parties and their generals, the importance of reaching an agreement—a ceasefire, in the first instance—to allow for humanitarian assistance and a sustainable peace between the two parties. We have seen some traction. We are working very closely with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and I praise its efforts in this regard. We have seen the first agreement, which provides protections though international humanitarian law. Unfortunately and tragically, we are still seeing attacks on humanitarian workers. We are working with key partners, including the Quad, on this, and I will continue to update your Lordships’ House accordingly.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Alton raised the spectre of refugees—these people would be genuine asylum seekers coming from Sudan—potentially ending up on small boats. What discussions is the FCDO having with the Home Office about ensuring that people who are fleeing violence will be treated in a humane way in this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, our country has a long tradition of ensuring that we are a sanctuary for those fleeing persecution. I know that my colleagues in the Home Office are monitoring the situation very closely to ensure that we are able to respond effectively to this crisis.

Foreign Policy

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to participate in this debate and begin the winding speeches, from the Liberal Democrat Benches. It is quite common to say, “I am delighted to speak after the noble Lord or the noble Baroness”, and sometimes that seems very formulaic. But on this occasion, it really has been a privilege to participate. I am most grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for bringing this debate to us. As so often, it is a shame that we are meeting in Grand Committee rather than on the Floor of the House. If we were there, we would get much more coverage, and the issues that have been raised could be explored much more fully.

This has been an excellent debate. One of the things we have found is that there are many areas of agreement across all four parts of the House. That begins to pay testament to the nature of the United Kingdom and our approach to foreign policy. Needless to say, I am not going to say from these Benches that I agree with everything that everybody has said—it would be a little strange if I did—and there are many things that I would like to amplify. One area in particular that I will focus on slightly more than people might expect is the Commonwealth.

The area that I am going to touch on, but perhaps not speak on as much as some people would expect, is defence. The reason for that is that my day job is as an academic. My professor of politics at Oxford used to say that I wrote good essays but that I did not necessarily answer the question, so I now look very closely at an exam question, and today it seemed to be about the implications for foreign policy. I noted that the Minister who was going to respond was the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, rather than the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, so I thought I would stick primarily to foreign policy, but I will touch on defence as well.

The starting point of the debate is about the UK’s changing role in the world. My immediate sense, when I started to draft notes ahead of the debate, was that we also needed to think about the changing role of the world around us, which many speeches have touched on, particularly the changing role of China. Perhaps slightly strangely, given that we are just over a year into the war in Ukraine, a lot of the discussion has been on China.

The subject that I thought might have caused a much longer debate was actually Brexit. I had a note of just one word: “Brexit”. My noble friend Lady Northover, in her excellent speech, pointed out that the previous integrated security and defence review had a Europe-shaped hole in it. Today’s debate did not pay very much attention to Europe, but that is probably right if we are rethinking our role. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, pointed out that we need to be strengthening our trading relationship with Europe. That is hugely important and something we need to focus on, as we must on security, but the questions of our role in the world are much greater than that.

I was minded to start from where the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, started: which foreign policy? He was looking for a foreign policy from the Government. It is quite easy to see why. I have lost count of how many Foreign Secretaries we have had since the 2016 referendum. For a number of years, the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister appeared to set the frame of what the UK Government thought they were doing internationally. Are we going global? What is global Britain? Are we going to focus on trading relations with countries that we already had trading relations with while we were members of the European Union? It was never entirely clear. Going east of Suez sounded like something that might work very well in a Marvel cartoon, but were we going to do anything meaningful by doing so, as Boris Johnson wanted to do as Foreign Secretary? It was never entirely clear. I think we are beginning to get a sense of where the current Government are going, but there are some areas where we could help to steer the Government in certain directions.

It came as a surprise to me, just as it did to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, that we could agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Frost, said about partnership—that we absolutely need to be strengthening our bilateral and other relations. I was slightly worried, when he talked about process, that he might think that thickening up relations with our bilateral partners might fall into that, but he very clearly did not. It would be good to hear the Minister’s views on what we are doing to strengthen our bilateral relations with our European partners, as well as with the United States.

I did not entirely agree with the analyses of the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meyer, on some of the issues about the United States, particularly on whether we are having problems because Biden is President. We might be having some problems, but they are probably not entirely dependent on which particular president the Americans put it office, because we had a few problems with Donald Trump as well. There are clearly some issues, but they are ones where we need to work very hard.

One of the biggest issues associated with the ignominious departure from Afghanistan, which my noble friend mentioned, is the fact that it is very clear that, when the United States decided to act, the other NATO partners, including the United Kingdom, had to follow suit. Your Lordships’ International Relations and Defence Committee, of which, at the time, I was a member, called on what was then Her Majesty’s Government to talk to the incoming Biden Administration and warn them of the dangers of withdrawal. All the Government said was, “We’re waiting to see what President Biden wants to do”. Surely the United Kingdom should not play a subservient role. We might want to have an appropriately humble role, but we should be talking to the United States and at least try to be equals in putting forward our views.

That takes me to the Commonwealth. The noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, as we might have expected, talked about the Commonwealth, but we also heard about it in part from the noble Lords, Lord Popat and Lord Bilimoria. The Commonwealth is hugely important, and perhaps we underplay it. It is an area where the United Kingdom could and should have influence, but it is also one where we need to demonstrate a degree of humility. That is where I disagreed with the suggestions from the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meyer, that somehow members of the Commonwealth or the global South have not been persuaded by the United Kingdom regarding Ukraine because of our issues on a whole set of social policies. It goes deeper than that. This is not about Commonwealth countries necessarily saying, “The West is too liberal” but perhaps, “We don’t want to be taken for granted”.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, suggested that there should be a state visit to India; I hope that His Majesty the King agreed. However, if we are doing that, it should not be with Ministers saying, “You need to be doing this and we want you to do that”. It should be acknowledged that our Head of State may also be Head of the Commonwealth but that King Charles is not the king of India and we no longer have the Raj. India will very shortly be the largest country in the world, if it is not already, and one that we need to speak to equals, not as a former colonial power. We need to recalibrate what we are doing to ensure that we are working with our Commonwealth partners as partners. That might help us to negotiate and persuade them in areas of the world where we have left a vacuum for China—a vacuum that has been talked about by many Peers.

In winding up, I will devote my final few seconds to the situation in China. As many Peers have said, it is not a country that is necessarily an enemy, although it has significant military power. We need to rethink our relationship while understanding that, as the noble Lord, Lord Popat, said, it is in part the IMF of Africa. We need to understand that if we in the West leave a vacuum, China will fill it, and in ways that do not require conditionality, as my noble friend Lady Tyler said. We need to rethink that, and I hope the Minister will agree with that and perhaps tell us where we can go in our relations with China under the refreshed integrated review.

Sudan

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, as it stand today, our priority has to be to continue with the programme of evacuations of British nationals. We completed an operation for those working for government, but there are more people to be saved from this situation. We are committed, as a priority, to trying to extend the 72-hour ceasefire, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, identified very clearly in his remarks. We may not succeed in that but it is our duty to try to extend it, and ideally even to turn it into something more lasting. The circumstances today are incredibly difficult, and it is unlikely that the kinds of concerns that the noble Baroness identified would be top of the list in these circumstances. However, there can be no doubt about the UK Government’s support for the ICC, or of our commitment to ensuring that people who engage in what are unarguably crimes against humanity are held to justice. We will do whatever we can to support that process but we have to maintain our sight on the clear priorities of today.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, the Minister suggested that communications on the ground in Sudan were difficult. That is obviously right. However, one of the issues with the evacuation of people from Afghanistan two years ago was that family members in the UK and their MPs—and indeed Peers—could not connect with the Foreign Office; it was impossible to find out what was happening on the ground. Could the Minister reassure us that, this time round, the Foreign Office is better equipped to be able to respond at least to MPs talking about their constituents? Surely we ought to be able to do that.

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point, and of course we have learned lessons from Afghanistan, as we strive to from every event that involves the UK and the FCDO, including on things such as evacuation planning, consular assistance, and so on. However, this is a very different situation, in the UK’s capabilities and the overall context, as well as the risk to British nationals. That is not to say that comparisons are invalid—they are absolutely valid—but it is a very different situation.