Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 25th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I wish to raise an issue about the Universal Credit (Managed Migration Pilot and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2019. I probably owe an apology to the government Chief Whip, having thought yesterday that I was dragging him to the Dispatch Box for the last time; I had not anticipated doing so again today.

We had a Statement and debate on this issue on Tuesday but having seen today’s report from our Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s Sub-Committee B, I have to raise serious concerns about process with the Government. We all understand the grave concerns about the policy of managed migration in universal credit and its implications. They are widely shared; the Government lost a major case in the High Court. My point today, although related, is about the constitutional role of Parliament in these issues. I am grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for drawing this to the attention of the House.

The original regulations were laid in June last year; they were withdrawn after severe criticism of the Government for prematurely seeking powers, and because they risked pushing vulnerable claimants into hardship. I think we have had two sets of replacement regulations, but the current ones to run the pilot have sat on the Order Paper since January. As affirmative regulations, the Government should have set a date for them to be debated in your Lordships’ House in that time.

On 8 January, the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, who was the Minister at that time, said that a debate would happen on the Floor of the House when parliamentary time allowed. Clearly, we have been so busy that there has been no parliamentary time available at all. The other place was also given a commitment that the Government would,

“ensure that the start date for the July 2019 test phase involving 10,000 people is voted on”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/1/19; col. 175.]

But now the regulations have been withdrawn and new ones have been re-tabled this week, with one change following the High Court judgment. They have been tabled as negative instruments, with no automatic right of debate, in the week when Parliament goes into recess. They are also to be enacted within three days, ignoring the 21-day convention between tabling and enactment. It feels like a belt-and-braces approach to stop any debate taking place.

As the report identifies, the regulations have been around for six months without debate and Parliament will now be denied the opportunity, as promised by Ministers, to debate them before implementation. The regulations will be in operation for nearly six weeks before Parliament returns and can even think about debating them. In terms of the role of Parliament, this is a pretty shoddy state of affairs. The committee describes the Government action as a “tactical ploy”. What would the noble Lord call it?

I apologise, as I thought that there might be a new Chief Whip to whom I could ask this important question today. Will the noble Lord pass on to the new Chief Whip that they need to give a commitment to this, given that the pilot will be in operation before Parliament returns? The results of the pilot and the lessons learned must be debated in both Houses, before any regulations are laid to enable the full rollout of managed migration. We also need a commitment that this will not happen again.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

The Leader of the Opposition is quite right: new regulations were laid at the beginning of the week. The original regulations could not proceed because of a High Court judgment, as she mentioned. The use of the negative procedure is entirely appropriate for this statutory instrument. This SI does not contain the provisions from the original instrument that called for the affirmative procedure.

However, I am aware that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee will be scrutinising the new SI in full, in due course. I note that the SLSC published a short information paragraph this morning, stating that a full report on the SI is to follow. Noble Lords should wait until we see what that report says, but the Government are more than happy to facilitate debates on negative SIs. If the Leader of the Opposition, or indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, want to come and see me while I am still in my office, I will do my best to see what arrangements can be made. As the House knows, my door is always open and our wish is that the House has every opportunity to debate all negative SIs, where the Opposition deem it appropriate.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the Chief Whip for the usual courtesy with which he has replied, but the message has to go to the new Chief Whip that there are two serious issues here. A debate can be facilitated, but these regulations will take effect over the summer. The 21-day convention has been cast aside and they will be in place. I am not just asking for a debate on these—we know that they are going to take place—but for a commitment to a debate on the outcome of the pilot, before we implement the policy as a whole. Given that we have not been allowed to debate the pilot before it happens, we should at least be allowed to debate it afterwards to see how it impacts the policy as a whole.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, your Lordships’ House may recall that on 3 July, this House passed a resolution that there should be a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament to look into the issues around a no-deal Brexit occurring on 31 October. The idea was that with a new, incoming Prime Minister—as it turns out, one who is quite enthusiastic about no deal—there should be information available to that Prime Minister before any decision is taken; and that the committee should report to both Houses, and publicly, by 30 September. Val Vaz, the shadow leader of the House of Commons, has raised this several times and the then leader of that House—he might not be leader at this moment—was quite optimistic and encouraging in his response. Are the Government able to say today what progress has been made? We have the names ready to submit to the Government because it seems that August is when that committee should meet and do the work that needs to be undertaken.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, the Leader of the Opposition is quite right: on 3 July and following a Division, this House agreed a Motion to appoint such a Joint Committee. I believe that the message that this House sent to the Commons has not yet been considered in the other place. The noble Baroness will readily understand that it is now a matter for the usual channels in the House of Commons. Like the noble Baroness, we stand ready to react to whatever response they may send us.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the Chief Whip for that response—probably. I can tell him that I had a letter from one of the candidates in the Conservative Party leadership election who was not very happy about the idea of a Joint Committee, but that was Jeremy Hunt and he lost, so I was rather hoping that the new Prime Minister might be a little more sympathetic. In his final hours as Chief Whip, might the noble Lord find the opportunity to take the new Prime Minister to task on this issue?

While I raise that, perhaps I may thank him on behalf of the whole House for his service as Chief Whip and in other ministries.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I should like to make a short business statement about our sittings in February. Noble Lords on all sides of the House will have noticed that, last Thursday, the Leader of the House of Commons informed that House that it was no longer the intention for it to have a February recess in the light of the significant decisions taken by that House last Tuesday.

In our House, we have discussed our sitting patterns on the Floor of the House on several occasions in recent months. Noble Lords will be aware that I have always said that I thought it would be necessary for us to sit throughout February. Had the House of Commons decided to proceed with its anticipated February half-term, I would have suggested that we have a long weekend to allow all Members and staff some additional time away.

However, given that the Commons will now sit throughout February, I believe it would be wrong for us to do otherwise. I assure the House that we will have plenty to do in the weeks ahead. Whatever noble Lords’ views on Brexit, I think everyone agrees that we must allow the maximum time for scrutiny, and that is what I propose we do.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Chief Whip for making the announcement. When he last spoke about this and we pressed him on dates, he said that he was speaking in code and that if we looked at Hansard we might get a better idea. Many of us did, and still had no idea. Perhaps now we understand why. We certainly understand the volume of work that has to be undertaken. If the Government were to rule out no deal as an option—or, as the Prime Minister seems to think, a sword of Damocles if her deal is not accepted—the workload may be slightly less. Of course, we stand ready to play our part.

The Chief Whip will be aware that the business this week in this House is rather light. The House of Commons has risen early on several occasions recently, and there are two Bills currently stalled in the Commons that this House has been waiting for: the Agriculture Bill completed Committee on 20 November, but there is still no date in the other place for either Report or Third Reading; the Fisheries Bill finished Committee on 17 December, and there is no date scheduled for the Commons Report or Third Reading. Both need to be through Parliament by 29 March. The Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill has its Second Reading tomorrow, but there have been two months between Committee and Report in the Commons. It seems that while we will sit longer to undertake this business, the Commons and the Government have been rather tardy in bringing forward the needed legislation. I assure the Chief Whip that we stand ready to play our part, but we expect the Government to do so as well.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, noble Lords who have been assiduous in looking at the Forthcoming Business will see that there are some dates regarding the Easter Recess. In the first sitting week after Christmas, I gave an undertaking to come back to the House at the earliest opportunity to make an announcement about forthcoming recess dates.

Noble Lords will not need me to remind them that we continue to be in uncharted waters—a point made by the Leader of the Opposition. Therefore, what I say today is highly provisional. Nevertheless, I have been listening to those on all sides of the House who have made it clear that they would welcome some dates, if only on the basis of best intentions. I am happy to be open with the House about these intentions, but the usual caveat about dates being subject to the progress of business has never been so strong.

Eagle-eyed Lords will already have seen from this morning’s edition of the Forthcoming Business that it is my intention that the House should rise for the Easter Recess at the conclusion of business on Thursday 4 April and return on Tuesday 23 April. These dates match the provisional dates indicated for the House of Commons. If possible, I intend to provide for a long weekend in February. I have spoken of this several times, but I continue to anticipate that, next month, the House will need to sit on days when the Commons is not. I will let noble Lords have details of any long weekend very soon, but I hope it is helpful in the meantime to give such notice as I can for the Easter Recess.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Chief Whip. It is helpful for noble Lords who are trying to plan to ensure that they can play their full part in the work of your Lordships’ House—which we all want to do—to have the dates for the Easter Recess. Can I press him on the February long weekend? We understand that the Government have set themselves a rather challenging timetable, partly—I have to say—through their own incompetence in not bringing legislation forward sooner. If noble Lords wish to take part in the business of your Lordships’ House as much as they can, they need some certainty as to when they need to be here. I find it incredible that we are coming towards the end of January and we are not able to have dates for February. The noble Lord has said “in due course”. If he wishes noble Lords to play a full part in the work of this House, they need some greater certainty about what is happening in the next few weeks.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I appreciate that question. I understand why the noble Baroness has asked it, but I need to be certain of government business in the middle of February. If you read what I said, you will have a pretty good clue as to when I am telling you it might be. If you will allow me a week to see how business runs, I will come back to the House. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is not here today. He is in Strasbourg. I have no doubt he would be very keen to make sure that we have some time in February for our families.

Hereditary Peers By-election

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Notwithstanding my noble friend Lord Grocott’s comment, I welcome the new Member of the House of Lords, Lord Reay, and we look forward to him playing his full part in our affairs. As much as we welcome an individual Lord, the system has had its day, as my noble friend said. It is increasingly difficult to defend a temporary measure that has gone on beyond its time. While we do not criticise anyone who stands or any noble Lords who vote in such a by-election—or the result—we think a change in the system is long overdue. I know the government programme is very challenging at the moment but debating this tiny little Bill in government time to remove the hereditary Peer by-elections would be very welcome and have overwhelming support in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, we have given a lot of time to this Bill. I have been in discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for some time. He knows that, when appropriate, we will try to find time for his Bill to be debated on Report before it can leave this House. I will be in touch with him in due course.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I hope the Chief Whip heard that. I think, from listening to the tone of the House, that the House wishes to hear the Prime Minister’s Statement before continuing. I propose to the noble Lord the Lord Speaker that we adjourn the House now until 5.30 pm, when we can hear the Statement, and then there can be discussions between the usual channels on how to proceed. The current position is unsustainable.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sorry, my Lords, I am not prepared to accept that. We have business before the House. We have people who have prepared speeches. As agreed by the usual channels, we are repeating a Statement at 5.30 pm so there will be every opportunity to speak. I am afraid I resist any suggestion that we adjourn during pleasure.

Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thought it would be helpful to the House if, before my noble friend repeats the Prime Minister’s Statement, I said a few words about the rest of today’s business.

The House will have seen the exchanges earlier today about the timings of today’s business, which led to a Division. Since that Division, I have received further strong representations from the opposition parties that they do not want today’s scheduled debate to conclude.

My view has not changed since earlier this afternoon. I believe it would be in the best interests of those signed up to speak today—and of the whole House, which has not heard them—for us to conclude the debate today as advertised. However, I recognise the strength of the representations, and I do not believe that it is in the best interests of the House to have continued procedural Divisions.

I repeat the offer I made in good faith of providing more time for this House to consider the issue further when it returns to the Commons, and I apologise to those noble Lords who have been waiting patiently to make their contributions. We will adjourn the House at the conclusion of the repeat of the Prime Minister’s Statement.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Lord for his courtesy in making that announcement to the House. It is always difficult when the House votes on procedural matters, and his coming before the House today has been very helpful. I am sure that we will have the benefit of hearing the wisdom of those we are denied from hearing today at a later date, and we look forward to that.

Hereditary Peers By-election

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 18th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

We know the noble Lord’s views on hereditary by-elections. He has a Bill before the House, which the House will consider in September. Meanwhile, he really should know—having been Chief Whip himself—that the whole of the information that he requires is available in the Printed Paper Office. In the Printed Paper Office is the notice of election, which tells him on what day the ballot will take place and on what day the election will be announced. All details of every vote are recorded on the document in the Printed Paper Office. He need only to go to the Printed Paper Office to get all the information he requires. Indeed, he could pick up several copies to give to others who he thinks need to be informed.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Chief Whip for responding to my noble friend Lord Grocott. He says that this House knows the views of my noble friend. In fact, my noble friend’s view is the view of the majority of your Lordships in this House, who think that the time for these hereditary by-elections has long gone. I do not cast any aspersions on our new Member, whom we shall welcome here. The Chief Whip says that my noble friend’s Bill will come back in September but it is a Private Member’s Bill. Given the overwhelming support in your Lordships’ House, can the Government assist in ensuring that that Bill is sent to the House of Commons for them also to take a view on?

Hereditary Peers By-election

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, my distinguished predecessor of the office I currently hold will know that there is no Question before the House. He has presented a large shopping list. He has a Bill before the House and he should know that I intend to make provision for further discussion on his Bill sometime in the autumn. I hope that satisfies noble Lords on his particular interest in this matter. I will read Hansard for the specific demands that he makes.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not wish to delay the House and I am grateful for the Chief Whip’s intervention, but he would have heard considerable disquiet from the House about this method of electing new Members of this House. With such a small electorate, it brings this House into disrepute. There is overwhelming support in your Lordships’ House for my noble friend Lord Grocott’s Bill. As well as providing additional time, I ask the Government to support the Bill and ensure its safe passage.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am slightly puzzled as to why the House would seek to rise at 6.36 pm for a break. The normal time for a dinner break would be around 7.30 pm. I appreciate that we have made swifter progress than anticipated, but it is inappropriate for the House to adjourn at this point. We should continue with the business before us. I am grateful to the usual channels for giving us a dinner break today; that is helpful. However, the normal time of after 7.30 pm would be more appropriate.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

There is a proposition before the House that we adjourn debate on Report. I took the trouble of having a word with the Opposition Chief Whip in order to ascertain when it would be suitable to have a dinner break, and we felt at that stage that this was the right time. I now realise that circumstances have changed. We had agreed to a sort of dinner break—a gap in proceedings—because previously we found that the evenings were too long. I was asked by both the Opposition Chief Whip and the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip to consider having a break in the evenings, because they thought that proceedings would go better if that were the case. That is not the situation. The proposition before the House is that we should have a dinner break—that we should adjourn the House on Report at this stage—and I feel that we should at least put that to the House.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Chief Whip. It is a very wise and sensible move to have a dinner break during long proceedings—but I am not very hungry yet, and I suspect that other noble Lords might have had a late lunch as well. I appreciate that there is a Motion on the table and I am grateful for his suggestion of a dinner break. I assume that the next group of amendments would take us to around 7.30 pm, which would be a more appropriate time for a break. If he insists on putting this proposition to the House, I would ask noble Lords not to support the Government.