Scottish Government: Expenditure

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Offord of Garvel

Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the questions asked by my noble friends Lord Foulkes and Lord McAvoy related specifically to the Minister for Independence. There are two issues here. One is the cost, particularly in times of constrained public finances, and what budget the money comes from. There is also a practical point. The Minister has spoken previously in this House about the independence of the Civil Service. Concerns have been raised in regular discussions between the Cabinet Secretary and the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary. Is the Minister aware of whether such concerns continue to be raised? If so, how does the Cabinet Office ensure that individual civil servants are not put in an invidious position regarding supporting political campaigns?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The response to that question given by the head of the Civil Service in Scotland, JP Marks, was that he is entirely impartial and is there to do the bidding of the party in power, elected at the ballot box. It is in the manifesto of the SNP that it wants to break up the United Kingdom and hold an independence referendum, even though only a third of Scots want that. It has been in power for 15 years and has not been able to move it forward from a third, which means that the project has effectively failed and which is why we say: please get back to the day job of running the country more efficiently.

Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That is exactly the point that Kate Forbes was putting across. To take the nationalist movement so far, Alex Salmond moved it from 30% to 45%, and he was entitled to say that his successor, Nicola Sturgeon, might have moved it from 45% to 60% but singularly failed in eight years. The point that Kate Forbes was making is that if it takes longer then so be it, but if you make the case for a prosperous Scotland then you can perhaps have that more fully answered.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is clear from the questions and answers today that this House is committed to the United Kingdom, with Scotland remaining a central part of it. May I bring the Minister back to the answer that he gave to my noble friend Lord Foulkes? The Minister was clear about how important the two issues of gender reform and container recycling were to the integrity of the UK. However, when he was asked when discussions would take place, he was a bit “Yes Minister” about it, I have to say. It was “in due course”, which sounds a bit like “in the fullness of time” and “as resources allow”. Does he recognise how important these issues are and can he give any timescale for when the First Minister will have meetings with the Prime Minister and Secretary of State? These issues cannot be allowed to fester any longer.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. The issue we have is that those are both Scottish Bills. The great thing about devolution is that the Scottish Government are empowered to make their own Bills and send them for assent here. It is not for the UK Government to interfere in Scottish Government decision-making, so if their Bills do not meet competency or cannot achieve Royal Assent, it is up to the Scottish Government to amend them. We have said that we will be very happy to consult them on that process, but these are their Bills that they must amend.

Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

That does exist, and in the Scottish case it is through SDI—Scottish Development International. That system has been working very well over the 26 years of devolution; only in the past two years have we had this encroachment and a different attitude from the Scottish Government. That is what noble Lords are referring to today.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his thoughtful answers. I take issue with one, however. He described my noble friend Lord Foulkes as “dogmatic”, but we on this side regard him as a cuddly pragmatist.

May I take the Minister back to my noble friend’s question? He said in response that the Government will monitor legislation—he later mentioned the GRA and the bottle deposit scheme—but my noble friend asked the Government to monitor expenditure to ensure at an early stage that it is not ultra vires. The Minister did not really address that point. Will he do so?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The devolution settlement was put in place in this House long before I arrived, and the machinery of government was set up in the devolution Act. It does not allow the UK Government to look over the shoulder of the Scottish Government regarding money sent from the Treasury to Scotland. The scrutiny exists in the Scottish Parliament, and Members of the Scottish Parliament rightly scrutinise the Scottish Government and hold them to account. The Auditor General for Scotland, the Accounts Commission and Audit Scotland work together to deliver public audits in Scotland, and the National Audit Office provides independent assurance that public money is spent properly and provides value, and it scrutinises public spending for Parliament. These are the checks and balances in place. If the noble Baroness would like to go further, we would need to bring another Bill to this House.

Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Judgement

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I always feel I have a slight vested interest in this issue, being a living example of an English-Scottish relationship, with an English mother and a Scottish father. Like many others in your Lordships’ House, I remain committed to a stronger union.

However, today in Scotland there are wide and acute concerns about the health service, education and the economy—concerns shared across the whole of the UK—so it continues to disappoint that independence remains the SNP’s top priority, rather than an absolute focus on improving public services and changing lives now. However, does the Minister acknowledge that there has been a failure by this Government to illustrate clearly why the case for independence is built on myths and false hope? Will he accept, as we do on these Benches, that a strong commitment to the union goes hand in hand with effective and practical devolution?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK Government note and respect the unanimous ruling by the Supreme Court that the Scottish Government do not have legislative competence to hold a referendum. The people of Scotland want both our Governments to concentrate all our attention and resources on the issues that matter most to them. That is why we in the UK Government are focused on restoring economic stability, getting people the help they need with their bills and supporting our NHS. As the Prime Minister has made clear, we will continue to work constructively with the Scottish Government on tackling all the challenges that we share and face.