House of Lords Commission

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Wednesday 10th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I have received a request to speak from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, whom I now call.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I have a question. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord McFall, will be able to deal with the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, but I wonder whether the latter was slightly confused in his comments. What is before us today, as I understand it—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord McFall, could confirm this—is not the issues raised around Members who have been suspended or expelled in the past but whether it is appropriate that those Members who seek to retire early should be treated in the same way as other Members who have been expelled or suspended from your Lordships’ House.

As such, it is not that the points he raised were wrong, but they are not relevant to the decision before us today, which looks only at whether Members who retire because they are facing investigation or sanction from the Conduct Committee should not be treated differently but should be subject to the same sanctions.

I will raise one point about those Members who lose their membership as a result of non-attendance. Obviously, this has been a difficult Session for some Members, but my understanding is that the Clerk of the Parliaments and all the individual groups have contacted several times any Members who may have been affected by that—and that they have co-operated with them in terms of their membership of the House. No one wants to see someone leave, or be automatically suspended from, the House just because of the current Covid situation. My understanding, which the Senior Deputy Speaker can confirm, is that this has been addressed by both the Clerk of the Parliaments and individual group leaders and Whips.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

There being no one else present in the Chamber who wishes to speak, I now call the Senior Deputy Speaker.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the Minister, who is obviously trying to give some reassurance in his comments. He has said that it is the terms of the amendments—their wording—that cause some difficulties. However, I think he is conceding, and understands, the points and concerns raised, and why there is so little trust and a need for that reassurance in Northern Ireland. I apologise if he is going to come to this in a moment, but does it follow from what he is saying that he is therefore prepared to bring forward his own amendments that would give the certainty and reassurance required but deal with his concerns about the wording of these amendments?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The important thing here is twofold. First, we agree on the destination—on where we are trying to go. Secondly, what we just said is that the amendments as drafted, from our position, undermine what we set out in the initial clause. We have said that the initial clause now delivers what we believe is right for Northern Ireland, both in terms of the wider dialogue and the ongoing evolution regarding the joint committee. That is why I would not propose replacing them with our own government amendments, but rather recognise the vitality of the original clauses.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hain, because he has put in place a very clear recitation of where he is coming from and, as he said very clearly, I anticipate that this matter will be pressed to a vote next week.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

As always, the noble Lord brings an interesting perspective to this. I appreciate the fear that the Joint Committee may extend beyond its rails and somehow move into different areas. Within that Joint Committee is the United Kingdom itself, and the purpose there is to hold to account the United Kingdom as it seeks to engage directly with the wider EU. I note underlying that, however, the more important point: the question of reassurance. I hope that the words I can use will give some reassurance today. Equally, I think we will come back to this matter next week when the House will demand of me further reassurance. It is important that I am able to put clearly before this House, and as it echoes beyond this House into Northern Ireland, these reassurances: it has not been overlooked; the newly established Executive will have a strong voice in what goes on, going forward; and the business community can expect to be significantly engaged with each element of the question of unfettered access, to make sure that this is in no way an attempt by the Government to hoodwink either the people or the businesses of Northern Ireland.

If I may conclude, the important point is that I believe we are in common agreement that unfettered access is required. We have the assurance of the Prime Minister and we ultimately have—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Since the Minister said that he was concluding, can I ask him this? He said that he wants to give reassurance. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised the point that we would rather not have disagreement between the two Houses. We would rather get the issue resolved, especially since I understand that in the other place they will have either no time for debate or so little time that it will move to a vote forthwith. Whether this House passes an amendment or not, we do not really have faith that this will be properly considered in the other place. It would be good to fully understand what the Minister is saying. Can he commit tonight to write to us with the details and place a copy in the Library, so that we can fully consider these matters before we come back? I urge him to think that the House is seeking reassurance from him because this matter has to be resolved. The consequences for the people of Northern Ireland if it is not resolved adequately are really very serious. Can he write by close of play on Thursday, so that we can fully debate it next week?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Yes, I am content to put in a letter the elements I have set out today, with the appropriate detail and clarity which I may have lacked in my explanation this evening, so that the Committee can see exactly what I seek to put on the record. I am occasionally guilty of being expansive—I know that my Chief Whip looks daggers at me occasionally—but I am happy to put that down in a letter in appropriate time, so that the Committee can consider it and make sure that there is no dubiety in what I seek to put forward. I am happy to give that commitment and I will ensure that it is there in good time.

Again, I bring myself back to the important point: I believe that we seek the same outcome, which is to secure Northern Ireland’s place within the family of nations that is the United Kingdom, and to ensure that there are no impediments to the trade within the Province of Northern Ireland as it seeks to trade within its important relationships with the rest of the UK. On that point, I am sorry that I am not able to give more positive support, but I will do all I can in the next few days to set out in writing the Government’s position.