Industrial Action on the Railways

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Monday 20th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I think that the noble Baroness is challenging me on that point. Has she actually invited the unions to a meeting with the Government at any point? I did ask that, and I would be grateful if she would respond to it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, that is marvellous; I have only just started my response, so if the noble Baroness could just hold her horses, that would be brilliant. Let us get back to the questions that she asked and indeed to the Government’s Statement. At face value, it is indeed the case that the current Rail Minister and her predecessor have met the unions in the past to press the need for reforms, and to outline the reforms set out in the Williams-Shapps plan for rail about the establishment of Great British Railways, changes to terms and conditions, modernising railway and creating this fantastic thing that we all want. But this was not part of the negotiations, because the negotiations are between the employer and the unions, as they have always been. That does not mean that the Government do not take great interest in the negotiations—we want to see an increase in pay—but it has to be done fairly, between the passengers, the taxpayer and the workers.

There are working practices that need to change. I am sure that all noble Lords will have heard of some of them, and I suspect that some have thought, “Yeah, it does need to change”. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about job losses. Over the course of the Covid pandemic, any job losses that have happened to date have been voluntary. A very successful voluntary severance scheme was launched in October 2021. There were 5,000 applications for that scheme—I am sorry, would the noble Baroness like to intervene?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness was mumbling, and I was desperate to know what she had to say.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Could the Minister answer the questions that I asked?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am trying to answer the questions that the noble Baroness asked. As I was about to go on to say, it is clear that the industry will do whatever it can to avoid job losses. There will be voluntary schemes, and we expect them to be popular. But of course each train operating company, and indeed Network Rail, has a vision for how we will put the reforms into practice, and there will be different ways that each organisation will do that, with the human resources available to it. We will have to see how that all pans out because, obviously, different organisations will require a different number of people to carry our different levels of service.

I turn to some of the other questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised. She mentioned that there is no mandate. There is a mandate for both Network Rail and the train operating companies. However, even so—I will say this again and again and no doubt I will be at the Dispatch Box many times talking about it—this is not just about pay; this is about terms and conditions, and we have known about changes to those for a very long time. We need to think about how we get to a stage where we manage to operate a seven-day railway in circumstances where, at the moment, you simply cannot. Southeastern’s high-speed operation, which has been in place since 2009, is incredibly successful. It is a great service, and that is the level of customer offer that we really should be giving to our customers on a modern railway, particularly as leisure travel is so important.

The noble Baroness also mentioned safety. Safety is, of course, the Government’s top priority. We have one of the safest railways in Europe, and there is an enormous uptick in the amount of advanced technology used for safety on railways—such as drones to check rail lines, which is much more effective than doing that by eye, and all sorts of machines that check for internal cracks in the rails. So, yes, there is an increased use of technology, and sometimes that means that people’s roles will necessarily have to change. The noble Baroness said that this will deeply affect the workers, and I agree. I feel very sorry for that, because at the end of the day we need those workers, and we want them to create these railways of the future. We do not want them to go on strike; we do not want them to damage their own livelihoods, which is what striking will do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said that the Government are apparently not lifting a finger. I can absolutely reassure them both that the Government have been working on this all through the weekend. Obviously, at the moment, this is the biggest priority for my department. It is taking up an enormous amount of time in the department—rightly so—because you cannot build a modern railway on poor foundations. That is what we run the risk of doing. We must make sure that we have reforms, particularly to working practices, such that we can create the modern railway that we all want. At the moment, we are not there.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked about agency workers, and we are looking at all options for them, because we do not want future strikes to punish the travelling public. When I have more information, I will of course bring it back to your Lordships’ House. In the meantime, I believe I have answered all the questions.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, my interests are slightly different: I try to travel on the trains most weeks.

We have a few minutes left. The Minister will have heard from across the House the disappointment in both the tone of the Statement and the fact that the Government have not been more proactive on behalf of the public in trying to resolve this issue. She said at the end of her comments that she had answered all the questions. Actually, she had not: I raised the issue of the letter from the Prime Minister’s chief of staff to the Chancellor, which appears to be saying that they should remove the curbs on bankers’ bonuses. I asked her if she felt that such action would be detrimental to those involved in this dispute because it seems rather hypocritical to urge wage restraint on one group of workers while allowing large bonuses for another. If she could comment on that, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful for the reminder that I had not commented on that. The reason is that I have not seen the letter so I do not know what is in it and am not able to comment.

Spain: Travel

Debate between Baroness Smith of Basildon and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Tuesday 28th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the letter from Baroness Vere of Norbiton to all Members on travel corridors and Spain, sent on 26 July, what support they will provide to those who have (1) visited, or (2) travelled through, Spain and are subsequently required to self-isolate on their return to the United Kingdom and are unable to fulfil work-related obligations as a result.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we encourage employers to show flexibility by allowing employees who return from Spain to work from home where possible—[Inaudible.]

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

My Lords, we encourage employers to show flexibility by allowing employees who return from Spain to work from home where possible while self-isolating or offering paid leave. We expect that many employers will have their own policies for self-isolation. Some may continue to offer full pay for all or some of the isolation period. Those who need urgent support may be entitled to new-style employment and support allowance or universal credit.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it was not any better the second time. The Government have failed to understand the practicalities and financial impact of self-isolation. The letter sent out by the noble Baroness only contained guidance for office workers if they were being forced to go back to work, saying that the Government were encouraging employers to be understanding and adding that staff could go to ACAS. That is not acceptable; it is totally irresponsible. She and I are working from home today, as is everybody else who is asking her a question on this issue, but for millions of people, usually in the lowest-paid jobs, that just is not possible. Even if their employers are understanding, their landlords and others may not be. Pricing people out of self-isolation is dangerous for all of us. Will she report back to the House tomorrow on what action Ministers are taking to provide financial support, including statutory sick pay, for those who the Government say must self-isolate?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton [V]]

My Lords, the Government have been absolutely clear: urgent support is available for those who need it. That may be the new-style employment and support allowance or it may be universal credit, depending on the individual circumstances. I will happily write to the noble Baroness with more detail of both those schemes. My letter to her was not intended to be comprehensive, but it set out many of the things that we are doing.